Sheep and goats. Separate from, or same as The great white throne judgment?

[delirious]

Don't you think there were people in the city when they set it on fire?

Why do you think the age ended in A.D. 70?

Matthew 28: 18-20, And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

So Jesus was saying I will be with you for about 40 years? And what about this...

Romans 8: 9, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

So Christ is currently living and dwelling in every believer right now. How is that possible if the age ended in 70 A.D.?

Did He mean two ages? Then He should have said in Matthew 28: 20, "I am with you always, even to the end of the AGES." It should be plural and it's not.

It's not plural because we are obviously still in that age. Then comes the new heavens and earth when Jesus returns in flaming fire.

 

[KJV1611]

Why do you think the age ended in A.D. 70?

Matthew 28: 18-20, And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

So Jesus was saying I will be with you for about 40 years? And what about this...

Romans 8: 9, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

So Christ is currently living and dwelling in every believer right now. How is that possible if the age ended in 70 A.D.?

Did He mean two ages? Then He should have said in Matthew 28: 20, "I am with you always, even to the end of the AGES." It should be plural and it's not.

It's not plural because we are obviously still in that age. Then comes the new heavens and earth when Jesus returns in flaming fire.

Isa_45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Eph_3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

From scripture we know that there are two worlds, one with no end and one that does end. The question then is which world is Jesus talking about.

From Isaiah 45:17 "world" is referring to Israel and yes I do believe that world is the world that ended in AD 70. I would assume the world without end is the world of spiritual Israel... but I'm not sure if that's so or not.

 

[delirious]

1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

The tares were part of the nation kingdom that was HIS, there are no tares in Christ's Kingdom which we as Christians are part of.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Scripture refutes this interpretation. Let me post the Parable of the Tares and the Dragnet again. Please pay attention to the bold.

Matthew 13: 37-42, He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Christ makes it clear that His kingdom is spread throughout the whole world at His return. Many parables in the gospels also confirm this as well as many prophecies in the OT such as Dan 2.

Matthew 13: 47-50, “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire."

The sea always represents gentile peoples and not Israel in the Bible. That's why it says they "gathered some of every kind".

Rev 7: 9, "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb"

The tares were part of the nation kingdom that was HIS, there are no tares in Christ's Kingdom which we as Christians are part of.

As the parable says, the bad from the nations were thrown away into the Lake of Fire. The Parable of the Dragnet proves that the Tares are comprised of all nations.

Your theory about them only being Jews is refuted by Scripture.

 

[Locutus]

Repeating your mistakes does not turn you argument into fact.

 

[MattforJesus]

I see two opinions of this floating around.

Me PERSONALLY I believe the sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming, not after the millenium.

I base this opinion on Matthew 25:31 which says that when Jesus comes in glory with angels. Therefore I believe it cannot be the great white throne, because where would Jesus be "coming from" with the angels if He is already on the earth during the millennium?

You see my point?

If you disagree with me, prove your point from Scripture! And lets discuss it!

The saints do not get judged at the great white throne judgment, for they already have their glorified bodies, and eternal life before the millennial reign of Christ.

Then Jesus comes back with all the saints and fights the world, and defeats them, and Jesus and the saints rule for 1000 years over the people that God spared at the battle of Armageddon.

Blessed and holy is he that has part of the first resurrection, for the second resurrection has no hold on them, and all people that are caught up in the first resurrection is all saved, which is before the millennial reign of Christ.

All the rest of the people that were not caught up in the first resurrection, have to go to the second resurrection after the millennial reign of Christ, the great white throne judgment.

They are people who were hypocrites, and heard the word of God but did not abide by it in the truth, for they held unto the world while claiming Christ, or did not abide by the Old Testament, and their sins were not covered by the blood of animals, which Jesus said to the hypocrites once He shuts the door they cannot enter concerning the first resurrection, and they shall have their portion with the hypocrites, and not everyone that says Lord, Lord, will enter heaven, for they did not do the will of the Father, but were workers of iniquity.

And all the people that heard the word of God, and rejected it, and all the people that never heard the word of God.

The hypocrites, and those that rejected the word of God will not be able to make it.

The people that never heard the word of God, or not sufficiently, will be judged on their belief in a higher power, who loves people, for He provided food, and the means to make clothing, and shelter, so the world is without excuse, so they should love people, and by their conscience, and if anything was amiss to ask the higher power for forgiveness.

Which creation testifies there is a God who created all things, and of His attributes, which one of them is love, so the world is without excuse, and covers the 2 greatest laws that everyone can see, love God, and love people.

Which love works no ill towards their neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

At the great white throne judgement some people will be saved for they abided by the 2 greatest laws love God, and love people, and were sincere, and asked God to forgive them if anything was amiss, for they did not have the advantage not hearing the word of God.

The only people that have a chance at salvation at the great white throne judgment are people that did not hear the word of God, or not sufficiently with no fault of their own.

Everybody that was a hypocrite whether Old or New Testament, and those that rejected the word of God and had sufficient preaching of it, but rejected it, and did not want to check in to it, or did and then said they do not believe it, will not make it.

 

[delirious]

Repeating your mistakes does not turn you argument into fact.

I just gave Scripture that proves that the tares are comprised of all nations not just Jews like you claimed. Is Scripture mistaken?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I'm not full preterism, I believe Christ will return in the future. All I am saying is that Jesus went to hell and returned 3 days later so every time the bible Jesus mentions Jesus returning its not always talking about his final return at the end.

This is why there's so much confusing and debate about his return, because every mention of his return is not about the end. People can accept this truth or not but no one can argue the fact that Jesus left the earth, went to hell and returned to earth.

Jesus did not go to Hell my friend. That is a heresy taught by Kenneth Copland, Joyce Meyer, Kennith Hagin, Sr.(probably Jr. as well), Paul Crouch et al.

 

[delirious]

Lets try one more time: How can satan be deceiving the nations now, while in rev20 it says he cant do that when bound?

I've already explained this in previous posts. I don't want to go over it again, in detail, for what seems like the 50th time for me. So I will give you a quick summary:

The amill believes that the "Great Commission" is Satan's restraining. Gentiles who sat in darkness during the OT are now able to enter God's kingdom through the proclamation of the gospel. That is how Satan is bound.

Some amills also believe that Satan is restrained from gathering all the nations against the church until the "little season" of Rev 20: 7. I think Satan is probably bound in both of these ways.

Many premills think that the binding of Satan must be absolute but that is simply not true. Because of this they won't accept the amill view. Fair enough. You can read it that way if you want but I believe it is a mistake.

You, yourself, have admitted that if it wasn't for Revelation 20, you would be amill. That should tell you something.

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus did not go to Hell my friend. That is a heresy taught by Kenneth Copland, Joyce Meyer, Kennith Hagin, Sr.(probably Jr. as well), Paul Crouch et al.

i don’t follow those wackos but the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus went to hell in multiple places.

Act 2:31 (KJV) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

[Lillywolf]

You are a great guy. Good attitude

Lets try one more time: How can satan be deceiving the nations now, while in rev20 it says he cant do that when bound?

Because as Revelation teaches, Satan is not yet bound. Thus, he continues to deceive the nations.

Revelation 20:1-3
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

 

[Locutus]

I just gave Scripture that proves that the tares are comprised of all nations not just Jews like you claimed. Is Scripture mistaken?

No, your understanding is - the harvest is at the end of the age which came in the 1st century.

John is warning the nation of the coming wrath - he is not warning the "world" or the nations:

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt 3:12 “His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

John states the fork was in his hand which indicates imminence of the end of the harvest in the wrath of 66-70 AD

You like others are taking scriptures out of their context.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I
You are assuming that nation means country.... Abraham was the father of many nations

i don’t follow those wackos but the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus went to hell in multiple places.

Act 2:31 (KJV) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Hell was the grave, not the fiery pit my friend.

ESV, CSB, NASB, ISV, LEB, Mounce Greek interlinear use ‘hades’...

Hades means place of the dead.

 

[PennEd]

Hell was the grave, not the fiery pit my friend.

ESV, CSB, NASB, ISV, LEB, Mounce Greek interlinear use ‘hades’...

Hades means place of the dead.

This is correct. No one is in hell (Gehena, the lake of fire) yet. Jesus did descend into HADES.

 

[KJV1611]

Hell was the grave, not the fiery pit my friend.

ESV, CSB, NASB, ISV, LEB, Mounce Greek interlinear use ‘hades’...

Hades means place of the dead.

In the KJV the place of the dead is called hell but we can call it the grave if you like.

 

[Locutus]

I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

So Jesus was saying I will be with you for about 40 years?

That's correct, he was with them in power, in signs and wonders - that is the only time when the totality of the gifts were active - Paul said those things were disappearing when he wrote to the Corinthians.

No other generation since had displayed that dunamis.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In the KJV the place of the dead is called hell but we can call it the grave if you like.

From Matthew Poole’s commentary...

“In hell; the word adhv is put either for the grave, or for the place of the damned. Being these words are alleged as a proof of Christ’s resurrection, and that our Saviour’s soul was certainly in paradise, where he promised to the penitent thief that he should be with him, it seems rather to be meant of the grave, which, according to this prophecy, could not hold our blessed Saviour’s body so long as that it should corrupt in it. If David by his soul here did mean our Saviour, because he was as it were the soul of his soul, and life of his life, it shows how he did, and how we ought to value him.”

When Jesus died, His Spirit went back to His Father, His body to the grave. So ‘hell’ in Acts 2:27(this is Poole’s commentary on verse 27) and 2:31 can not be the fiery pit my friend.

 

[KJV1611]

From Matthew Poole’s commentary...

“In hell; the word adhv is put either for the grave, or for the place of the damned. Being these words are alleged as a proof of Christ’s resurrection, and that our Saviour’s soul was certainly in paradise, where he promised to the penitent thief that he should be with him, it seems rather to be meant of the grave, which, according to this prophecy, could not hold our blessed Saviour’s body so long as that it should corrupt in it. If David by his soul here did mean our Saviour, because he was as it were the soul of his soul, and life of his life, it shows how he did, and how we ought to value him.”

When Jesus died, His Spirit went back to His Father, His body to the grave. So ‘hell’ in Acts 2:27(this is Poole’s commentary on verse 27) and 2:31 can not be the fiery pit my friend.

Luk 16:24 (KJV) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Sure sounds like a fiery pit to me.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In the KJV the place of the dead is called hell but we can call it the grave if you like.

The KJV has many words they translated ‘hell’ my friend.

Tartarus
Sheol
Hades
Gehenna

For whatever reason, those translators did not distinguish them, but referred to all of them (erroneously) as ‘hell’.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Luk 16:24 (KJV) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Sure sounds like a fiery pit to me.

But hades could be used many ways, just like ‘knew’ can as well. Context determines what it is meaning. Jesus’ Spirit went to His Father, His body to the grave...hades.

 

[KJV1611]

From Matthew Poole’s commentary...

“In hell; the word adhv is put either for the grave, or for the place of the damned. Being these words are alleged as a proof of Christ’s resurrection, and that our Saviour’s soul was certainly in paradise, where he promised to the penitent thief that he should be with him, it seems rather to be meant of the grave, which, according to this prophecy, could not hold our blessed Saviour’s body so long as that it should corrupt in it. If David by his soul here did mean our Saviour, because he was as it were the soul of his soul, and life of his life, it shows how he did, and how we ought to value him.”

When Jesus died, His Spirit went back to His Father, His body to the grave. So ‘hell’ in Acts 2:27(this is Poole’s commentary on verse 27) and 2:31 can not be the fiery pit my friend.

I would also that this guy has no clue what he’s talking about.

Jesus body was in the tomb for three days while his spirit was ministering to the spirits in prison.