The Calvin / Servertus controvercy

[UnderGrace]

Oh, come on don't be so dramatic.
No one has said that there is no use for the University, but one must be wise enough to know what a tools effective use is. The University and the sophist philosophy are so inextractably linked that its usefulness is limited to two purposes.
One would be the effective dissemination of massive amounts of technical and procedural information.
For example nurses; there's not really any other way of producing the number of nurses that we need in our society.
The other use for University is disciplines in which the achievements of the predecessor becomes the stepping stones upon which future achievement stands, such as the sciences.
The university is useless in the propagation of unbiased research and information concerning art, morality, philosophy, theology, or any of the other lofty realms of thought.

now all of the criticism of the University aside; I must address one more subject that has been brought up in this forum concerning education.
I have little to no tolerance for willful ignorance. If a man has no greater use for his mind than that of the beast of burden then let him be relegated to such purpose as the ox who is stabled that night and then brought out to plow during the day.

But I love drama !! That is why I come to CC to see all the drama and then sometimes I have to involve myself while I wait for the kettle to boil.

The university is useless in the propagation of unbiased research and information concerning art, morality, philosophy, theology, or any of the other lofty realms of thought.

Disagree...... there are still some honourable professors who do perform unbiased research. The problem is that most people have not developed the critical thinking skills to recognize the the biases and know enough about statistics and correlations to make a good judgement.

It is the left that is intolerant to ideas, are you with the left on this?

I support free speech, the pursuit of knowledge in all areas, maybe you do not, which is too bad. It is from dispassionate debate and the exchange of ideas that truth can be uplifted.

Oh dear sounds like the kettle is whistling.....

 

[Hevosmies]

Many here would be deceived by a JW apologist, they're pretty slick.

These "self-taughters" on here are weak in theology, perfect prey for the enemy.

Why do I say that? You see them on here all day dissing the church and fighting against truth. Then we have some who coddle them and protect them with "luv" and those who refute them are allegedly always doing so "in the flesh."

But I digress, if you want another good preacher to listen to try Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Excellent expositor of Scripture!!! Highly recommended. and I've listened to him over and over.

Another is Dr. Steven J. Lawson. Excellent expositor as well!

One of my favorites recently is Voddie Baucham.

 

[Endoscopy]

Dr. Noll is correct in his accessment of the lack of any real intellectual teaching in the evangelical church at large. However is attempt to diagnose the cause is I think missing the mark. It's not because evangelical pastors and ministry staff don't attend college and get degrees in " church". If you look at the pastoral teams of every successful evangelical church they all have degrees from a theological seminary of a sort. To me that is the problem. What I see is that these well intentioned and good hearted lovers of the Lord do go to seminary and do get degrees, they really on professors to teach and point the way to learning the knowledge that they need to be successful in the ministry, and they do, and they become successful, and they answer average Joe's typical questions with answers. Typical cookie cutter answers. This is why I say the sophist philosophy of education has created such mediocrity. In order to provide a uniform education and systemized of conveyance of the uniformed information and maximize profit they have stream lined the information leveling deeper question and thought with vapid quick rhetoric that glosses over and obfuscates the matter leaving a sense of satisfaction but no real answer.
It's not then evangelical student who has failed. Its the institutions of mundane learning.
The student can not fail the teacher. It is the teacher who fails the student.

The problem goes way deeper than that. The vast majority of the ministers in the big denominations are secular and went to Seminary to be able to get access to the church money. Gary North documented the takeover of Presbyterian USA in 1932 in his book "Crossed Fingers". This started in the 1880s. He stated the same happened to all of the 7 sisters, the 7 main protestant denominations. Only the sub denominations still preach the gospel message, Presbyterian PCA and Lutheran Missouri Synod for example. This means that of the almost half of the population of the USA attending churches only a sliver hear the gospel message.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

One of my favorites recently is Voddie Baucham.

His sermon ‘The supremacy of Christ’ is awesome.

 

[preacher4truth]

One of my favorites recently is Voddie Baucham.

He's a rank hairy tick!

No, I love him bro. He is a good preacher!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

He's a rank hairy tick!

No, I love him bro. He is a good preacher!

So, are you saying he’s a smelly, unshaven blood sucker?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

One of my favorites recently is Voddie Baucham.

 

[preacher4truth]

You're a "follower of man."

But I am not.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You're a "follower of man."

But I am not.

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [a]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [b]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [c]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.(Eph. 4)

I take this very seriously my friend.

 

[preacher4truth]

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [a]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [b]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [c]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.(Eph. 4)

I take this very seriously my friend.

I neutralize that verse with this'n:

"you have no need that anyone should teach you." 1 John 2:27.

It's toward the back of the Bible because the things in the back neutralize the things in the front.

I learned this on my own personal study under a tree with my Red Letter edition.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I neutralize that verse with this'n:

"you have no need that anyone should teach you." 1 John 2:27.

It's toward the back of the Bible because the things in the back neutralize the things in the front.

I learned this on my own personal study under a tree with my Red Letter edition.

Isn’t the back of the book where that scary book of Revelation is located? I hardly go there, it’s scary.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I neutralize that verse with this'n:

"you have no need that anyone should teach you." 1 John 2:27.

It's toward the back of the Bible because the things in the back neutralize the things in the front.

I learned this on my own personal study under a tree with my Red Letter edition.

I like reading of all the times Jesus was seen knocking on doors and carrying a lamb around my friend. They are all over the four gospels. They have to be with all the pictures of Him doing those things. Right my friend?

 

[preacher4truth]

I like reading of all the times Jesus was seen knocking on doors and carrying a lamb around my friend. They are all over the four gospels. They have to be with all the pictures of Him doing those things. Right my friend?

Yes, Olan Mills was there.

 

[Hevosmies]

I support free speech, the pursuit of knowledge in all areas, maybe you do not, which is too bad. It is from dispassionate debate and the exchange of ideas that truth can be uplifted.

A left wing calvinist would have the problem solved.

There would simply be no free will to use free speech

Its like my calvinist barber used to say: "I have an offer that you CANT refuse"

 

[Lillywolf]

Dr. Noll is correct in his accessment of the lack of any real intellectual teaching in the evangelical church at large. However is attempt to diagnose the cause is I think missing the mark. It's not because evangelical pastors and ministry staff don't attend college and get degrees in " church". If you look at the pastoral teams of every successful evangelical church they all have degrees from a theological seminary of a sort. To me that is the problem. What I see is that these well intentioned and good hearted lovers of the Lord do go to seminary and do get degrees, they really on professors to teach and point the way to learning the knowledge that they need to be successful in the ministry, and they do, and they become successful, and they answer average Joe's typical questions with answers. Typical cookie cutter answers. This is why I say the sophist philosophy of education has created such mediocrity. In order to provide a uniform education and systemized of conveyance of the uniformed information and maximize profit they have stream lined the information leveling deeper question and thought with vapid quick rhetoric that glosses over and obfuscates the matter leaving a sense of satisfaction but no real answer.
It's not then evangelical student who has failed. Its the institutions of mundane learning.
The student can not fail the teacher. It is the teacher who fails the student.

True. Because the teacher knows more.

 

[Lillywolf]

I don't think that Calvinist vs Armenian is the only two options. I think they tried to reconcile scripture to human understanding. I don't think that's necessary to understand or teach Salvation. One negates the other, while they both ignor or gloss over other scriptures. It's my opinion that the scriptures they both use seem to be at odds but are not in reality. In fact they balance and compliment each other if you apply spiritual understanding. Use all the scriptures that they both use to redute each other and read them together as one study.

Both traditions are arrived at through scripture. As we know though scripture has been and is able to sustain any number of doctrines that draw their foundation from the words of God.

 

[Hevosmies]

I neutralize that verse with this'n:

"you have no need that anyone should teach you." 1 John 2:27.

It's toward the back of the Bible because the things in the back neutralize the things in the front.

I learned this on my own personal study under a tree with my Red Letter edition.

How do we reconcile 1 john 2:27 with "God gave some teachers, apostles, prophets..."etc?

I think a good way would be to say that 1 john 2:27 is talking about the basics of the faith. But if someone has a better interpretation bring it on.

By the way thats hilarous that the things in the back neutralize the things in the front LOL, thats what musilms believe about the koran Their one fake prophet was so dumb he couldnt even get the book right and he was the only one to come up with it. Thats why they got that dumb rule.
Bible writing spanned many millennium and had like 40 different writers.

 

[preacher4truth]

How do we reconcile 1 john 2:27 with "God gave some teachers, apostles, prophets..."etc?

I think a good way would be to say that 1 john 2:27 is talking about the basics of the faith. But if someone has a better interpretation bring it on.

By the way thats hilarous that the things in the back neutralize the things in the front LOL, thats what musilms believe about the koran Their one fake prophet was so dumb he couldnt even get the book right and he was the only one to come up with it. Thats why they got that dumb rule.
Bible writing spanned many millennium and had like 40 different writers.

LOL! I laughed when I typed it.

Well, the context of 1 John 2 is about false teachers, anti-Christ's, their teachings, that the recipients know this to be true via the Holy Spirit, 2:20-22, and that they need no man to teach them what they already know.

Ephesians 4 is about how God has decreed roles in the church for our learning via his gifts, thus 4:11ff.

 

[Lillywolf]

I already have. And Servetus did not disavow Jesus that is a lie.

Where are all those resources you referred to in your post #83? "Do you have access to primary sources, scholarly journals and research via a University? Talk to me when you do because I do. " But you have avoided the challenge to prove it.

You make these statements but unlike others here you don't show proof to back them up. Show us the primary sources that sustain your claim. Excerpts from scholarly journals and research. You claim you have access. But you never back anything you say in this thread with evidence from that material which you claim you have access to.

For instance, you can't claim it is a lie Michael disavowed Jesus and not prove it is a lie.
“Your gospel is without the ONE God, without true faith, without good works. Instead of the one God you have a three headed Cerberus; instead of true faith you have a fatal delusion; and good works you say are empty shows.”
(Michael Servetus's letter, quoted in Kindle location 4259, Standford Rives, Did Calvin Murder Servetus?)

 

[Lillywolf]

It should be noted in this debate , or controversy, that Michael Servetus was also Pantheist.

These are excerpts from Michael's writings. Which I had access to through the Net and linked in the thread for others reading.

"Therefore the stone which came forth from the mountain was not created out of nothing, but came out of the Substance of God. It is so because even from the very fact that God speaks and says, Let there be light, he does not create the light or the Word, but through the omnipotence of God brings forth from himself both the light and the Logos; so once more, when he causes the light and the Logos to be flesh, the flesh is not created out of nothing, but is brought forth from God, and becomes flesh, and exists in that hypostasis which was the Logos and the light, because the Logos εγενετο, that is, became, and had existence as flesh." (The Two Treatises of Servetus on the Trinity, Michael Serveto, translated by Earl Morse Wilbur, Dialogues on the Trinity, Book II, p. 205).

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