I allowed my thoughts to wonder and they settled upon this; our interpretation of Scripture is greater seeded in our own character than God’s. I think our discrepancies and biblical debates say more about the debaters than the content of contention. How we analyze God’s actions are understood through our logic. Since anyone who casts an opinion obviously feels they are correct, most likely based on their logic. We feel God must be logical and that His actions and thoughts must match our own. Therefore on issues like OSAS, a more forgiving person, quarrels with those who identify themselves by their accomplishments, embracing a works based salvation. Both potentially ignoring the scripture to the contrary; clearly stating that you can’t be saved without faith, and that He saved us, to do His work.
Character of God
- Thread starter Hungry
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I think you have a point. We tend to filter all input through our own lenses, whether emotional, relational, cerebral (what you call logical), or physiological. We also tend to create god in our own image (lower-case intended).
One of the most memorable lessons from my seminary days was an exercise in which we were to read a passage of Scripture describing something God did, and explain what it taught about God. Most of the students, myself included, read the passage, filtered it through what we believed, and produced a result. The professor basically said that the right way to read it was to say, "God is the God who did such-and-such"... rather than re-interpreting the passage into "characteristics". In that way our understanding of God would be solidly biblical.
One of the most memorable lessons from my seminary days was an exercise in which we were to read a passage of Scripture describing something God did, and explain what it taught about God. Most of the students, myself included, read the passage, filtered it through what we believed, and produced a result. The professor basically said that the right way to read it was to say, "God is the God who did such-and-such"... rather than re-interpreting the passage into "characteristics". In that way our understanding of God would be solidly biblical.
Love love love your thread because it causes us to examine our mindsets. I think we can grow more when we try and see it from another position. It brings more respect to the table of debate, because we have to communicate mindfully and listen thoroughly, with intent. Besides that, it also allows for edifying movement in the discussion. I'm not suggesting we be double minded, but that we look at things from different angles of view, as our God is very dynamic and very true. I think there is harmony in the scripture, there has to be if all the scriptures are God inspired, and if all the scriptures are true.
The OSAS debate, I reckon will go on forever, Once Debated Always Debated, ODAD. Oh Dad, help us all.
I think it is a silly debate. He is clear that as long as we keep seeking, keep believing, keep ourselves rooted in Him, He will take us home, that He is the author and finisher, that He gets all the Glory. His work within get's us where we need to be, if we do not quench or grieve the spirit. How do we keep from getting dissensitized? We guard our softened hearts given. How do we guard our hearts, we put on the plate of righteousness. How do we do that? By leaning in and on the one who saved us. How do we do that, taking to heart what He says and does. Do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with Him. So you see OSAS, believing because of His work within or striving to stay saved, by doing as He says, either way it all comes back to Him. All that to say what you said...
Both potentially ignoring the scripture to the contrary; clearly stating that you can’t be saved without faith, and that He saved us, to do His work.
I think Dino's professor taught him..."God is the God who did such-and-such"... rather than re-interpreting the passage into "characteristics". In that way our understanding of God would be solidly biblical.
I think we must always remember that His thoughts are not ours, and so remain humble and don't lean on our own understanding. We must stay in our thick headed sheep lane and allow the all knowing Shepherd to lead us.
The OSAS debate, I reckon will go on forever, Once Debated Always Debated, ODAD. Oh Dad, help us all.
I think it is a silly debate. He is clear that as long as we keep seeking, keep believing, keep ourselves rooted in Him, He will take us home, that He is the author and finisher, that He gets all the Glory. His work within get's us where we need to be, if we do not quench or grieve the spirit. How do we keep from getting dissensitized? We guard our softened hearts given. How do we guard our hearts, we put on the plate of righteousness. How do we do that? By leaning in and on the one who saved us. How do we do that, taking to heart what He says and does. Do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with Him. So you see OSAS, believing because of His work within or striving to stay saved, by doing as He says, either way it all comes back to Him. All that to say what you said...
Both potentially ignoring the scripture to the contrary; clearly stating that you can’t be saved without faith, and that He saved us, to do His work.
I think Dino's professor taught him..."God is the God who did such-and-such"... rather than re-interpreting the passage into "characteristics". In that way our understanding of God would be solidly biblical.
I think we must always remember that His thoughts are not ours, and so remain humble and don't lean on our own understanding. We must stay in our thick headed sheep lane and allow the all knowing Shepherd to lead us.
k.....but......is it not possible that a person through prayer, study of the Word and being attentive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit can come to an understanding of Scripture that may well disagree with the understanding others reach? I agree that forgiving people, through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, are far more likely to be understanding of the beliefs of others........but are they required to accept the Theologies of Denominations/Groups they do not reach the same understanding of?
Is it not possible for Christians to treat other Christians as Scripture teaches......with respect, love, and humility? Rather than requiring all people to agree with their understanding of Scripture, agree to disagree?
Saved by Grace through Faith is surely Biblical Truth. In fact, all one needs to know about receiving salvation is found in John 3:16 is it not? But, now, see, that is my understanding, and others may disagree. And, they have the God given right to, for He gave all man the precious gift of Free Will. Oops, another belief that others will disagree with...........
I didn’t know you went to seminary. I have a lot of respect for those who put in the extra work to seek God/Truth. Are you in ministry?
@CharliRenee --->>Your gospel has alot of "as long as we" in it..............sorry....I don't buy the "we" aspect....it is all HIM or it is not salvation! IMV
According to the Scriptures (and common sense), mankind's version of logic is pure foolishness in the sight of God. Clearly, God is logical, just so much more logical than we are that we cannot necessarily make sense of His works. Of course, the Holy Spirit is there to inform us of God's logic, thankfully.
The fact that people come to different conclusion on what the Bible has to say is due to pride, foolishness, and laziness. There is only one true reality.
Every one I have ever asked has had the experience of reading a Scripture for the (whatever) time, and then having a different understanding of it from the first time they read it. As we grow in Christ, and faith, and understanding of Scripture through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and we progress from supping on milk to feasting on the meat of Gods Word...........we are able to see different meanings.
New Christians, just saved, reading Scripture understand at the carnal level, while mature Christians who have received the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit understand at the spiritual level.
As well, the Holy Spirit imparts to each Christian the understanding they need at the particular time they are searching for understanding for one reason or another.
Hang around awhile and get to know the Members here before coming to such a conclusion.
Welcome to CC as well..........
I can remember my old opinions on the Bible, and I was horribly wrong about everything. Now, I have been building upon what I have been learning for the past few years, and none of it is changing...BECAUSE THE TRUTH DOES NOT CHANGE.
And, I've been on plenty of boards like this and other types as well. Have read satanists blogs about how they infect religious message boards and take moderator power and run it into the ground...meanwhile the naive Christians allow actors to run them in circles until it all crashes...
I'll jump to all of the conclusions I want to, thank you.
Actually, you are wrong on that one..............you are going on my "Ignore List." And, you should be proud. You set a World Record for the shortest length of time to accomplish that vaunted goal..........
M
Miri
Guest
Going back to the OP, I think as well that God deals with each person, where they
are at, which also accounts for different view points.
So a downtrodden, person, abused, discrimated against, etc. God reveals His love
to them. A hearty proud person, God might take them down a peg or two etc.
The way He deals with each person is to cause them to trust in Him, to rest in Him.
To have a relationship with Him.
Think of parents with children, you don’t deal with
them exactly the same it depends on their character. You want them to learn healthy
habbits, to be productive, to use their talents, to be kind and to want to learn, to be
diligent. To help around the house, to be loving etc. But not all children are the same,
they need handling in different ways.
It’s the same for us. Some are harder work than others! Some are more lazy than others,
some are too independent for their own good (I probably fall into that one!). Some are
Martha’s (that’s me too!) Some are Mary’s.
Some are Peter’s , rushing headlong into anything, others are more like John etc.
Jesus dealt with His disciples as individuals, He still does with us.
are at, which also accounts for different view points.
So a downtrodden, person, abused, discrimated against, etc. God reveals His love
to them. A hearty proud person, God might take them down a peg or two etc.
The way He deals with each person is to cause them to trust in Him, to rest in Him.
To have a relationship with Him.
Think of parents with children, you don’t deal with
them exactly the same it depends on their character. You want them to learn healthy
habbits, to be productive, to use their talents, to be kind and to want to learn, to be
diligent. To help around the house, to be loving etc. But not all children are the same,
they need handling in different ways.
It’s the same for us. Some are harder work than others! Some are more lazy than others,
some are too independent for their own good (I probably fall into that one!). Some are
Martha’s (that’s me too!) Some are Mary’s.
Some are Peter’s , rushing headlong into anything, others are more like John etc.
Jesus dealt with His disciples as individuals, He still does with us.
,
When I retired I had time to study scripture. I had no idea that my understanding of the Lord was not based on scripture so much as on doctrines of men. A basic doctrine of my church has a lot of anti-Jew, those people who deny Christ. Our ministers warn against going too deep in OT thought. And I had never considered reading scripture as from a God as God is described in the Psalms.
When I gave up my preconceptions of scripture and simply let it all soak in it made me cry for the misconceptions I was leaving behind. It was putting my ego and logic behind me and letting God in. Scripture without personal ego or preconceptions is like opening up a hidden world we live in that is pure beauty.
I wonder how much of the Lord I am understanding, and how much I am still keeping of my imperfect self. I use a prayer shawl, it helps with listening for God's voice.
Isn't this a most valid point!!
When I retired I had time to study scripture. I had no idea that my understanding of the Lord was not based on scripture so much as on doctrines of men. A basic doctrine of my church has a lot of anti-Jew, those people who deny Christ. Our ministers warn against going too deep in OT thought. And I had never considered reading scripture as from a God as God is described in the Psalms.
When I gave up my preconceptions of scripture and simply let it all soak in it made me cry for the misconceptions I was leaving behind. It was putting my ego and logic behind me and letting God in. Scripture without personal ego or preconceptions is like opening up a hidden world we live in that is pure beauty.
I wonder how much of the Lord I am understanding, and how much I am still keeping of my imperfect self. I use a prayer shawl, it helps with listening for God's voice.
In order to analyze God's action(s) then wouldn't logic require they have faith?
But then again, the discipline of science is based upon the existence of principles. Formal logic is a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration.
So it really couldn't be understood through our logic since principles are fixed and unalterable laws of truth that were laid from the beginning within the foundation of the world and are woven into the fabric of this physical world that they will continue to exist in perpetuity, or until the time the established by the doctrine of Christ, which ever comes first.
In such, if the hour and day the heaven and earth will pass away is hid it is hid only to them who are lost since whosoever abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. Thus the lost will cite Mark 13:32 wherein it is written, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Yet as written in 2 John 9, "He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
Our logic is the logic required in our human state. God lives in a spiritual state very different from ours. God lives in a world that is eternal or without time. Our senses revolve around time, it is impossible for us to experience life without it.
God uses the Hebrew language to try to give us understanding of the spiritual state. This language expresses ideas with many layers of information, something no other language does. Each letter of a word has a meaning. Each happening we are told of has many layers of information in it, starting with the simple report of a happening, the spiritual importance and laws it explains are at work, and a hidden meaning that sometimes comes to us over a scripture we hadn't realized before.
For thousands of years people were told to sacrifice innocent animal blood and repent of their sins. If they had been told about Christ who in eternal time died for their sins they wouldn't have understood, but without logic and using blind faith they did it. We are told things that logic will not explain but just like the animal sacrifice has great power.
As an example we are told of angels who are working for us. We don't see them, aren't even told very much about what they do. They don't follow logic but you can be sure that scripture is right about the power of these angels.