When it's awkward to question...
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To the core topic of the OP:
Each of us is responsible before the Lord for what we do with His word. If you can read it, you can apply it in your life. Take what your preacher or your church teaches as a guide for your own study. Check for yourself what Scripture says on the subject, and prayerfully draw your own conclusions.
The pastor is responsible for how he or she leads you, but you are responsible for how you follow the Lord... not the pastor. When you disagree with the preacher, do so with respect and with scriptural evidence. Squarely resist any manipulation tactics.
Regarding questioning a teaching, ask for biblical evidence for it. Again, take that and do your homework. You aren’t under any obligation to agree with a teaching... unless you submit to it by joining the church.
That’s where it gets tricky: can you join and still question? It depends on the church. One that I attended had a membership requirement of tithing. I didn’t join.
Where you find a significant teaching inconsistent with Scripture (or a minor teaching treated as significant), be prepared to leave the church; not that you will need to. Choose your battles, and know that your commitment to truth will make enemies even within the church.
In all this, ask the Lord to guide you and to keep your heart from being hardened by the unpleasant reactions of others.
Each of us is responsible before the Lord for what we do with His word. If you can read it, you can apply it in your life. Take what your preacher or your church teaches as a guide for your own study. Check for yourself what Scripture says on the subject, and prayerfully draw your own conclusions.
The pastor is responsible for how he or she leads you, but you are responsible for how you follow the Lord... not the pastor. When you disagree with the preacher, do so with respect and with scriptural evidence. Squarely resist any manipulation tactics.
Regarding questioning a teaching, ask for biblical evidence for it. Again, take that and do your homework. You aren’t under any obligation to agree with a teaching... unless you submit to it by joining the church.
That’s where it gets tricky: can you join and still question? It depends on the church. One that I attended had a membership requirement of tithing. I didn’t join.
Where you find a significant teaching inconsistent with Scripture (or a minor teaching treated as significant), be prepared to leave the church; not that you will need to. Choose your battles, and know that your commitment to truth will make enemies even within the church.
In all this, ask the Lord to guide you and to keep your heart from being hardened by the unpleasant reactions of others.
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K
Ahh the CC edit,bane of the forums... Here we go.
My father tells a joke as follows:
A pastor was speaking to his church one Sunday. He said "This church is going to walk"!! The people said "Amen,let her walk!!" Preacher said "This church is going to run!!" They said "Amen,let her run!!" Preacher got excited and said "This church is going to fly!!" And the people shouted "Amen brother,let her fly!!" The preacher said "It's going to take money to make it fly!!" And the people said "Let her walk".
What's my point? I was in traveling ministry for 20yrs. so I know a little about church giving. We went on a love offering. Now many churches treated us well. But there were also many times when we paid them to go and preach and sing to them.We would get an offering sometimes and not have enough to get out of the parking lot and back home. Then you would go to the local restaurant and see these same Christians plunking down 40 and 50 dollars to gorge themselves for a meal.
I have a friend that is well known in Christian music. He tells a joke about money. He said the 50 dollar bill was talking to the dollar bill and the dollar bill said "where have you been?" Oh,the 50 says, I've been to the movies, the salon,the restaurants,sporting events etc. Where have you been?" The dollar bill said "Church,church,church and church."
We owe everything we have to God. And I don't find Christians have a problem with giving too much to the church these days compared to other things they give to. In my travels I saw very little sacrificial giving. Ten percent is nothing when we owe it all to Him. Very few churches are trying to manipulate money from people.Most these days are simply trying to keep the doors open. I know Christians that will give to tv evangelists before their local church. God promised to bless us when we give. The widow gave all she had. How should we complain over giving so little? Yes,we should give to the church on a regular basis. And we should give to ministries that go out of the church like missionaries and evangelists.
Sorry if my viewpoint offends. But I've been on the other side. I've seen love offerings,mostly from big city churches, that were more love than offering. Then people would tell us "you're just in this for the money". Having no clue that we wouldn't even be able to cover our bills for that week,or the week before that. Jesus was aware of tithing and He didn't condemn it. He seemed to believe it was something you should do...
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
God loves a cheerful giver? Yes, and He loves those that give from the heart,not the head. We can never out give the Lord. If you were to consider how much you spend on entertainment for yourself vs how much you give to the church and missions who would win? I'll leave it there for all of you to answer.
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I can speak from a pentecostal church side:
There is no worry about MONEY. the Church has more than enough money, in fact the church is one of the wealthiest (tax free) institutions in the world.
Especially the roman catholics. But a close second are the charismatic churches, they are absolutely BAAALLLIIIIIIN' financially. They like to guilt trip poor people to give more than 10%(while driving fancy cars and never working themselves, preparing life coaching speeches for sundays) or you are being a cheapskate and robbing God.
One thing I've learned is: Many fundamentalist churches are dispensational, talk about rightly dividing, you bring up something and "oh thats the OT" but REST ASSURED, the tithing from MALACHI to LEVITE PRIESTS (wasnt even money tithing, btw) is definately still in effect. It crosses ALL dispensational borders, its always applicable from Adam to eternity!
All that being said: that doesn't prevent me from tithingg but I dont expect to get 100% increase because I give, thats just unrealistic, I dont care what anyone says, i've heard all the testimonies, but my own experience from all the people I know in real life tells me a differrent story. If I was homeless again like i've been in the past I would NOT be giving a dime to the church, i would start giving once im back on my feet again
Now the question comes up, DO I TITHE? Sure i got no problem tithing but i am VERY PICKY to which CAUSE i give my money. I would never EVER give it to one of these rich churches doing nothing, where I do and would tithe is to MISSIONARY WORK. Thats the key in my opinion, directly to MISSIONARY work, thats my main concern and I believe that is what HASTENS the Lord's coming. When all of the elect have gotten saved.
If you feel called to give to some other cause thats fine, but as for me; I believe missionary work is the one thing that matters.
IOW: I would give to some poorer baptist churches, reformed churches, whatever "more poor" churches there are.
The charismatics and catholics are already FILTHY RICH and need not a dime more!
There is no worry about MONEY. the Church has more than enough money, in fact the church is one of the wealthiest (tax free) institutions in the world.
Especially the roman catholics. But a close second are the charismatic churches, they are absolutely BAAALLLIIIIIIN' financially. They like to guilt trip poor people to give more than 10%(while driving fancy cars and never working themselves, preparing life coaching speeches for sundays) or you are being a cheapskate and robbing God.
One thing I've learned is: Many fundamentalist churches are dispensational, talk about rightly dividing, you bring up something and "oh thats the OT" but REST ASSURED, the tithing from MALACHI to LEVITE PRIESTS (wasnt even money tithing, btw) is definately still in effect. It crosses ALL dispensational borders, its always applicable from Adam to eternity!
All that being said: that doesn't prevent me from tithingg but I dont expect to get 100% increase because I give, thats just unrealistic, I dont care what anyone says, i've heard all the testimonies, but my own experience from all the people I know in real life tells me a differrent story. If I was homeless again like i've been in the past I would NOT be giving a dime to the church, i would start giving once im back on my feet again
Now the question comes up, DO I TITHE? Sure i got no problem tithing but i am VERY PICKY to which CAUSE i give my money. I would never EVER give it to one of these rich churches doing nothing, where I do and would tithe is to MISSIONARY WORK. Thats the key in my opinion, directly to MISSIONARY work, thats my main concern and I believe that is what HASTENS the Lord's coming. When all of the elect have gotten saved.
If you feel called to give to some other cause thats fine, but as for me; I believe missionary work is the one thing that matters.
IOW: I would give to some poorer baptist churches, reformed churches, whatever "more poor" churches there are.
The charismatics and catholics are already FILTHY RICH and need not a dime more!
I would say that if you are in a church environment for example that will not allow for questions or will continually put you down for whatever questions you may have, you probably should leave that church.
No one is perfect and sometimes even leaders may respond to doubts and questions in a way that is unkind. These same people may regret how they spoke or treated the person with the question.
Discussing religion can be a lot like discussing politics. If you are not careful enough, quarrels can erupt, words are spoken in haste and feelings get hurt. However if you are not being accepted in a church or among friends or if you are constantly put down if you raise questions, that is not a healthy environment to be in.
Even if questions involve foundations of Christianity such as Jesus death and resurrection, you would have the right to ask them and be treated with respect. I believe that asking questions is one way that we can grow as people and in the faith.
No one is perfect and sometimes even leaders may respond to doubts and questions in a way that is unkind. These same people may regret how they spoke or treated the person with the question.
Discussing religion can be a lot like discussing politics. If you are not careful enough, quarrels can erupt, words are spoken in haste and feelings get hurt. However if you are not being accepted in a church or among friends or if you are constantly put down if you raise questions, that is not a healthy environment to be in.
Even if questions involve foundations of Christianity such as Jesus death and resurrection, you would have the right to ask them and be treated with respect. I believe that asking questions is one way that we can grow as people and in the faith.
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If I was in that situation and the answer gave me no peace in my heart I would not attend that particular church theres plenty of others.
As for money Jesus had his biggest miracle happen because the disciples had no money. He asked them to buy food and they just didnt have enough to feed 5000 people.
Oh and dont forget he paid Peters tribute by finding money in a fish. He didnt have to pay it, but it was kind of extortion by Caesar. Also he held up a coin and said give to God what its Gods and to caesara what is caesars, and the coin Had a picture of the caesers head on it.
As for money Jesus had his biggest miracle happen because the disciples had no money. He asked them to buy food and they just didnt have enough to feed 5000 people.
Oh and dont forget he paid Peters tribute by finding money in a fish. He didnt have to pay it, but it was kind of extortion by Caesar. Also he held up a coin and said give to God what its Gods and to caesara what is caesars, and the coin Had a picture of the caesers head on it.
Sorry, you gave a wrong assessment.....what I said is exactly what happened....I always budgeted my cash and the only difference was I started putting God first which took even more money out of my budget.......Man cannot outgive GOD........! And I know what happened as I was there........!
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The new testament says ; when you give your alms, keep is so descreet, that not even your left hand knows what your right hand is doing, for if you give for men to know and see, you already have your reward. But if you give in secret, God will answer you insecret. Jesus said, this; you give a tenth, of mint, but your overlooked the right insights, of love, mercy, and compassion.. I don't think money should be the main priotiry in a church building. Especially writing your names on enveolopes. What happend to me, once, I gave a check for 5 dollars, and was mocked for 3 months, in front of my family, what can you buy with 5 dollars. This poison has been satans, pot of spewing venom on making money more important than Jesus Christ.
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Christian grace giving was never meant to become a means of getting back something. But as you say, it has all been grossly perverted. And to continue to harp on tithing when Christian liberality -- A GRACE -- is the NT teaching is in fact disobedience.
2 CORINTHIANS 8
1Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit [DESIRE YOU TO KNOW] of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
3For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
4Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
5And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
6Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
7Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
8I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
10And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he thathad gathered little had no lack.
16But thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.
17For indeed he accepted the exhortation; but being more forward, of his own accord he went unto you.
18And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;
19And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:
20Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us:
21Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
22And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you.
23Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
24Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.
2 CORINTHIANS 8
1Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit [DESIRE YOU TO KNOW] of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
3For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
4Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
5And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
6Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
7Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
8I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
10And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he thathad gathered little had no lack.
16But thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.
17For indeed he accepted the exhortation; but being more forward, of his own accord he went unto you.
18And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;
19And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:
20Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us:
21Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
22And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you.
23Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
24Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.
P
I am so happy that these two topics have been brought up in one thread..,. tithing and denominations.
As it was explained that tithing is a old covenant requirement. I agree but let's look on the feeding of the five thousand.
There a gathering to hear Jesus preach and the the first thing of jesus's mind was how hungry and tired the people were.
Now Jesus being who he was could of had it rain Happy meals for all....but did he? No he asked his diciples to go buy for them.
I think everyone knows the end of the story.
Little is much when God is in it. But it takes someone to give. How much is up to you? But giving is needed with in the body of Christ.
Jesus said if you give out of abundance it's really not giving, but if you have to budget in order to give thats giving and will not go unnoticed.
In Paul's writings we see wolves in sheep's clothing mentioned, and followers of men. Paul's greatest fear was that the church would divide, break up into sects. In fact in his writings Paul gave several warnings about this and hid commentaries on the Torah in his letters to keep in tact the basics of the bible and the roots of christianty.
As it was explained that tithing is a old covenant requirement. I agree but let's look on the feeding of the five thousand.
There a gathering to hear Jesus preach and the the first thing of jesus's mind was how hungry and tired the people were.
Now Jesus being who he was could of had it rain Happy meals for all....but did he? No he asked his diciples to go buy for them.
I think everyone knows the end of the story.
Little is much when God is in it. But it takes someone to give. How much is up to you? But giving is needed with in the body of Christ.
Jesus said if you give out of abundance it's really not giving, but if you have to budget in order to give thats giving and will not go unnoticed.
In Paul's writings we see wolves in sheep's clothing mentioned, and followers of men. Paul's greatest fear was that the church would divide, break up into sects. In fact in his writings Paul gave several warnings about this and hid commentaries on the Torah in his letters to keep in tact the basics of the bible and the roots of christianty.