Is Catholocism bad?

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Lambster

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Dec 24, 2018
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What do you mean by catholic ritual give an Example.
Robes and vestments, incense, altar, tabernacle, fonts, liturgy, sacred vessels, candles, statues, the Laver, graven images and much more.

These things are from the ancient Israelite worship.

We see the Church in revelation worships God in this fashion and so did the Israelites in the Temple.

Giant graven timber statues clad in gold, the Cherubim in the Holy of Holies, the most sacred part of the Temple.
God wanted these in place. Why? When He commanded that there be no graven images, and He also commanded that these graven images be set in place in His very sanctuary.

The difference is the intended purpose of these graven images, they were part of the worship, not the objects of worship. Real idolatry worshipped the object itself as a god, that is what displeased God.

The simplistic understanding can not grasp the difference, that is why many can not understand why God wanted these graven images in His sanctuary. In fact there were thousands of graven images in God's Holy Temple.
Many don't want to understand the difference, they just want to nurse their prejudices, because they hate the Catholic Church. Sad loss for them however, because knowing the difference here opens the way to profounder understanding of Christianity.
 

Lambster

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No, I am referring to our Christian brothers and sisters who were raised Catholic.
If we go running after them waving a Bible and screaming "devil, devil, devil..."
they aren't going to listen to us. It only serves to prove that everything they have heard about us is true.
Sketch, what do you find most talked about when discussing things with Catholics?
 

Sketch

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Nov 1, 2018
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Sketch, what do you find most talked about when discussing things with Catholics?
That's an interesting question.
I usually don't talk about the same things over and over. Because I want to learn what I don't know about them.
And talking to an Eastern Orthodox Catholic is different than a Roman Catholic. In fact some Eastern Orthodox folks don't prefer to be called Catholic. They will tell me they are Orthodox, as if that should be enough to describe them.

But they almost always make a point about Church Tradition being at the forefront of what they are about. Some of them know enough about the Bible to discuss it. And they usually have their apologetics memorized (like us) concerning the lifetime virginity of Mary and such. But if I bring this scripture it usually means the end of the discussion. But basically I am not argumentative with them.

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
 

Sketch

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Robes and vestments, incense, altar, tabernacle, fonts, liturgy, sacred vessels, candles, statues, the Laver, graven images and much more.

These things are from the ancient Israelite worship.
You have a curious view of these things.
I discounted what you said initially because it seemed pretty far out.
But I'm trying to be a little more open about it now.

How do you account for the gap in practice between what the early church
and what the Roman Church ended up doing centuries later? I'm not saying that
the timeframe is proof against, but something very foundational changed.

The early Christians pulled away from Judaism and the Roman Church became
pursecutors of all things Jewish. Even punishing Judaizers and
making them anathema from Christ. (excommunication)

They must have made some distinctions between these things.
Keeping the Sabbath was not okay, but burning incense was okay.
 

Sketch

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I talk to Hindu man, they pray infront of statue, they say they not worship statue, every religion that pray and bow infront of statue say the same.

Who ever bow infront of statue against God, It doesn't matter whether Israel,carholic, Hindu or bhudda.
We need to acknowledge the fact that many of the people in these cultures are illiterate.
The original stained glass images in cathedrals were stories that the people could see, since they could not read about them.
 

Sketch

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Catholics venerate The Ark of the Covenant, Mary. We do not worship Mary, Mary is not God.
Veneration does not necessarily mean worship. Usually just great respect.
I think we venerate the Apostle Paul. And certainly the Patriarchs. Abraham, Moses, etc.
Hebrews eleven is all about venerating those key figures in the Faith.
Nothing particularly wrong with that. IMHO
 

Sketch

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Protestants interpret anything they like from scripture, so when the bible can mean anything, then it means nothing. They nullify the word of God by their many human interpretive traditions.
People looking on from the outside, ask themselves, where is the truth to be found in this interpretive mess of Protestantism, it nullifies the word for them.

The bible then becomes a matter of each man's conflicted opinion, and opinion is poor substitute for truth. Opinion trampled truth from the beginning of Protestantism, each man interpreted his own doctrines from scripture and now thousands of Protestant churches are divided against each other reading from the same bible.

This is the great evil caused by private interpretation.
This is a major sticking point with Catholics toward Protestantism.
They see us fighting over doctrine and it just proves to them that they are right and we are wrong.

Frankly, it is a valid point, but not sure what can be done about it.
On the one hand God only meant one thing when he gave us his Word.
On the other hand we should be free from a set of interpretations that may be in error on some points.
What to do, what to do...
 

Sketch

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The Apostles are Catholic. The One, Holy, Catholic and APOSTOLIC Church.

Paul says hold to the traditions that were taught either by word of mouth or by letter. Protestants rejected the word of mouth tradition taught by the Church and say they follow scripture alone.
The irony is that by ignoring this scripture, they neither follow scripture or tradition.
I think this is what the Catholics mean when they say, "Sola Scriptura isn't biblical."
 

wolfwint

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Feb 15, 2014
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The Tradition of The Holy Spirit is not a lie, it is the Truth handed down in the Catholic Church.

Think about all the conflicted interpretive traditions in Protestantism, each interprets scripture conflictedly constantly dividing against the next. Are you going to tell me all these human founded traditions of men are inspired by God.?
Lambster, what do you mean, when you talk from protestant?
 

Lambster

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Dec 24, 2018
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Sketch, the Catholic Church is the ancient name of Christ's Church, surely some Orthodox wish to be associated with the name at least.

“[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church" Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

You can today test the phenomenon that these early Catholic Bishops experienced. Ask in any town or city when travelling where the " Catholic Church " is, and see where they direct you.

The thing with private interpretation, is that it does not have the benefit of the context that tradition brings. Tradition understands things as they were originally meant, with no modern misunderstandings.

Luke 20:43 – Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

2 Sam. 6:23 – Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

It is quite reasonable today to assume something after when the word " until " is used. But in ancient times the word " until " didn't infer anything after. This is the danger of interpreting as a modern that does not know how these terms are used in ancient context.
Tradition prevents modern twisting of scripture, that leads people to misunderstanding.

Catholics have one ancient Apostolic understanding of Scripture, it has always been forbidden to privately interpret Scripture.

The fastest way to twist scripture to people's destruction is to privately interpret it, that is why Protestantism is so divided because it means anything the reader wants it to mean.
Protestants today think it is normal to privately interpret scripture, subjecting scripture to each man's conflicted opinion, but this is a spiritual crime against the truth.

Let us forget that the founders of Protestantism believed Mary was ever virgin. Let us forget that every preceding age of the Church back to the Apostles also believed Mary ever virgin.
Let us assume that they are all stupid and never read the scripture, no matter that they were great Fathers, leaders and scholars of the ancient time.

Many times I see Protestants reduce scripture to legaleez, it's just there to proof text their doctrinal position, like Pharisees and Sadducees quibbling over trifles and they miss entirely the most amazing and profound treasures of scripture.

Private interpreters of scripture can never in a million light years truly grasp scripture.

Tradition or another term for it, the Spoken Word of God, the Tradition of The Holy Spirit , teaches one and the same interpretation handed down throughout the ages. It is not the shifting sands of the traditions and opinions of men.
 

Sketch

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Nov 1, 2018
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Sketch, the Catholic Church is the ancient name of Christ's Church, surely some Orthodox wish to be associated with the name at least.

“[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church" Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

You can today test the phenomenon that these early Catholic Bishops experienced. Ask in any town or city when travelling where the " Catholic Church " is, and see where they direct you.

The thing with private interpretation, is that it does not have the benefit of the context that tradition brings. Tradition understands things as they were originally meant, with no modern misunderstandings.

Luke 20:43 – Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

2 Sam. 6:23 – Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

It is quite reasonable today to assume something after when the word " until " is used. But in ancient times the word " until " didn't infer anything after. This is the danger of interpreting as a modern that does not know how these terms are used in ancient context.
Tradition prevents modern twisting of scripture, that leads people to misunderstanding.

Catholics have one ancient Apostolic understanding of Scripture, it has always been forbidden to privately interpret Scripture.

The fastest way to twist scripture to people's destruction is to privately interpret it, that is why Protestantism is so divided because it means anything the reader wants it to mean.
Protestants today think it is normal to privately interpret scripture, subjecting scripture to each man's conflicted opinion, but this is a spiritual crime against the truth.

Let us forget that the founders of Protestantism believed Mary was ever virgin. Let us forget that every preceding age of the Church back to the Apostles also believed Mary ever virgin.
Let us assume that they are all stupid and never read the scripture, no matter that they were great Fathers, leaders and scholars of the ancient time.

Many times I see Protestants reduce scripture to legaleez, it's just there to proof text their doctrinal position, like Pharisees and Sadducees quibbling over trifles and they miss entirely the most amazing and profound treasures of scripture.

Private interpreters of scripture can never in a million light years truly grasp scripture.

Tradition or another term for it, the Spoken Word of God, the Tradition of The Holy Spirit , teaches one and the same interpretation handed down throughout the ages. It is not the shifting sands of the traditions and opinions of men.
That's a great description of Catholic narcissism. (self love)
Like the parenthetical statement from the first long paragraph in your post.
"(... other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord)"
Yup, they sure love us Protestants. Calling our churches "profane" and "dens". Opium or brothels?
 

Lambster

New member
Dec 24, 2018
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This is a major sticking point with Catholics toward Protestantism.
They see us fighting over doctrine and it just proves to them that they are right and we are wrong.

Frankly, it is a valid point, but not sure what can be done about it.
On the one hand God only meant one thing when he gave us his Word.
On the other hand we should be free from a set of interpretations that may be in error on some points.
What to do, what to do...
What to do, is to follow the truth up Calvary, we follow the truth wherever it leads. Christ's sheep know His voice and His voice is the voice of Truth.

When a man tries to overthrow truth he overthrows himself, and looking back through the settling dust he sees truth standing unmoved as ever before.

The Truth is Eternal, it was True before all men and will remain after all men.

The Truth is the Highest Authority.

Man does not make the Truth, he can make a lie, but not the Truth.
A man reaches up and grasps the Truth and takes it to himself, Truth takes nothing from him, it only gives him a solid foundation to stand on, it places his feet upon a rock.

That is why the wandering of the private interpreters must end, and they listen to the voice of Truth handed down throughout the ages.
 

Lambster

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Dec 24, 2018
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That's a great description of Catholic narcissism. (self love)
Like the parenthetical statement from the first long paragraph in your post.
"(... other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord)"
Yup, they sure love us Protestants. Calling our churches "profane" and "dens". Opium or brothels?
These are the Church Fathers describing the heretics of the day. Did you see the dates on those quotes, Protestants didn't exist.
 

Sketch

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Nov 1, 2018
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What to do, is to follow the truth up Calvary, we follow the truth wherever it leads. Christ's sheep know His voice and His voice is the voice of Truth.

When a man tries to overthrow truth he overthrows himself, and looking back through the settling dust he sees truth standing unmoved as ever before.

The Truth is Eternal, it was True before all men and will remain after all men.

The Truth is the Highest Authority.

Man does not make the Truth, he can make a lie, but not the Truth.
A man reaches up and grasps the Truth and takes it to himself, Truth takes nothing from him, it only gives him a solid foundation to stand on, it places his feet upon a rock.

That is why the wandering of the private interpreters must end, and they listen to the voice of Truth handed down throughout the ages.
I agree in principle. The "what to do..." is about the practical component. Who decides what the truth of God's Word is?
The Catholic Church is happy to answer that question for us.
And in fact we have already decided. Unfortunately the decisions don't agree.
 

Sketch

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These are the Church Fathers describing the heretics of the day. Did you see the dates on those quotes, Protestants didn't exist.
That's a good point.
So, we had it, but then lost it.

Frankly, I'm not as concerned with the disagreements between denominations as some are.
I think there are valid reasons for the splits. Even Paul and Barnabas went different ways at one point. (or was that Silas?)
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I think this is what the Catholics mean when they say, "Sola Scriptura isn't biblical."
It does not make me an authority but I spent 10 years on a Catholic Protestant board. Catholicism as to what they call "Law of the Fathers" or "Apostolic succession". say "Sola Scriptura isn't biblical in order to in the end of the matter make the authority of God without effect. But Sola Scriptura or all things written in the law and the prophets is the restoring tool in any reformation. As it worked in the first century so it worked the same way in the fifteenth century reformation.

"Law of the fathers" found in the book of their law that they hold as the higher form of authority than the Bible. I will offer in highlighted in blue.

PART ONE SECTION ONE. CHAPTER TWO ARTICLE 2. THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For "both of them", flowing out from the same
divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

That is the foundational difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

Mark 7:13 Making the "word of God" of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Veneration does not necessarily mean worship. Usually just great respect.
I think we venerate the Apostle Paul. And certainly the Patriarchs. Abraham, Moses, etc.
Hebrews eleven is all about venerating those key figures in the Faith.
Nothing particularly wrong with that. IMHO
Of course nowhere do you find records of them PRAYING to these venerated saints or asking the DEPARTED SAINTS to PRAY on their behalf.
Absolutely UNBIBLICAL and wicked.

Why? Because, if you are praying to Saint Nicholaus or Saint JoeShmoe, how can you know they were even SAVED? You dont know their eternal state, you have never even met these guys, nor are they recorded in Scripture. They are just church tradition. They have even made a Pope a saint recently.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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Sketch, the Catholic Church is the ancient name of Christ's Church, surely some Orthodox wish to be associated with the name at least.

“[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church" Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

You can today test the phenomenon that these early Catholic Bishops experienced. Ask in any town or city when travelling where the " Catholic Church " is, and see where they direct you.

The thing with private interpretation, is that it does not have the benefit of the context that tradition brings. Tradition understands things as they were originally meant, with no modern misunderstandings.

Luke 20:43 – Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

2 Sam. 6:23 – Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

It is quite reasonable today to assume something after when the word " until " is used. But in ancient times the word " until " didn't infer anything after. This is the danger of interpreting as a modern that does not know how these terms are used in ancient context.
Tradition prevents modern twisting of scripture, that leads people to misunderstanding.

Catholics have one ancient Apostolic understanding of Scripture, it has always been forbidden to privately interpret Scripture.

The fastest way to twist scripture to people's destruction is to privately interpret it, that is why Protestantism is so divided because it means anything the reader wants it to mean.
Protestants today think it is normal to privately interpret scripture, subjecting scripture to each man's conflicted opinion, but this is a spiritual crime against the truth.

Let us forget that the founders of Protestantism believed Mary was ever virgin. Let us forget that every preceding age of the Church back to the Apostles also believed Mary ever virgin.
Let us assume that they are all stupid and never read the scripture, no matter that they were great Fathers, leaders and scholars of the ancient time.

Many times I see Protestants reduce scripture to legaleez, it's just there to proof text their doctrinal position, like Pharisees and Sadducees quibbling over trifles and they miss entirely the most amazing and profound treasures of scripture.

Private interpreters of scripture can never in a million light years truly grasp scripture.

Tradition or another term for it, the Spoken Word of God, the Tradition of The Holy Spirit , teaches one and the same interpretation handed down throughout the ages. It is not the shifting sands of the traditions and opinions of men.
What do you mean when you mention protestant? What is a protestant in your Eyes?
Ore do you call all who are not catholic a protestant?
 

Lanolin

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Dec 15, 2018
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I once met a lady who was a hoarder and turned out she was catholic although she would sometimes go to other churches for help. She asked me to pray with her but she was praying to some dead saints and I found it a bit creepy. The dead saints couldnt help her with her hoarding problem. She couldnt even really acknowledge she had a hoarding problem.

I once travlled to northern ireland and they were very divided over who was catholic and who was protestant there. To the point where if you crossed to either side you risked getting shot if you werent on the right side of the road.
 

Laish

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Jul 31, 2016
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I think this is what the Catholics mean when they say, "Sola Scriptura isn't biblical."
Problem is that most folks don’t know what sola scriptura means at least what the reformers mean by it .
Catholics have turned it in to a straw man.
Here is a basic understanding what the Protestant Church believe about sola scriptura .

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.
It means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.
End of story . It’s not saying traditions are bad and don’t have them is saying they should line up with scripture and never supplant what is found in scripture.
So if you teach Mary is sinless , perpetual virgin and you are anathema if you don’t believe you are teaching tradition .
Blessings
Bill