Video - Faith or Faith plus Works?

[John146]

I don't want to get into another debate about calvinist OSAS.. But i will say The Holy Spirit seals all who God has foreknown from the foundation of the World who will persist in belief and not fall away into deception and delusion..

And Faith is not a Works according to the Bible.. But yeah it's all been debated before.. many many times in this forum..

Then one can never know if they will be saved or not. One really can never know if they are going to endure to the end...until the end comes.

 

[JaumeJ]

Unfollowing now

 

[crossnote]

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit seals the believer until the day of redemption. What's the redemption? Romans 8:23 defines it as the adoption. It's a future event for believers. The Holy Spirit has guaranteed the believer for that day. It is not dependent upon the believer's works or life.

So we are NOW sons of God, but one day we will be adopted? That doesn't make sense...

1 John 3:2 KJV
[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[crossnote]

Then one can never know if they will be saved or not. One really can never know if they are going to endure to the end...until the end comes.

One had better know right now if they are saved or not, otherwise salvation is dependent on our obedience,

John 5:24 KJV
[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[John146]

So we are NOW sons of God, but one day we will be adopted? That doesn't make sense...

1 John 3:2 KJV
[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Why are we now known as sons of God? Because the adoption is guaranteed! It's going to happen regardless of us!

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is a future event. It's the redemption of our bodies. When that happens, we will be totally in the image of Christ, body, soul and spirit. Our bodies are yet to be redeemed.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit seals the believer until the day of redemption. What's the redemption? Romans 8:23 defines it as the adoption. It's a future event for believers. The Holy Spirit has guaranteed the believer for that day. It is not dependent upon the believer's works or life.

Some are not going to accept those words In the post and think “believers can live like they want to and still be saved”?

The thing that those who don’t agree with that statement Is,when a person gets saved they are GODs creation created In CHRIST unto good works that we should walk In them.

In other words the person’s works won’t earn salvation to GOD but they will desire to change and not desire to live like they did before.

 

[PennEd]

I am a total believer in Salvation is by Faith alone in the Atonement secured by Jesus alone..

But i do not believe in OSAS.. They are two seperate issues..

How is it possible to not see the contradiction in this post?

You say your Salvation is secured by Jesus, but then say you can lose it!

So either Jesus has to fail in securing you, or you have to work to keep it secured.

Which is it?

 

[John146]

Some are not going to accept those words In the post and think “believers can live like they want to and still be saved”?

The thing that those who don’t agree with that statement Is,when a person gets saved they are GODs creation created In CHRIST unto good works that we should walk In them.

In other words the person’s works won’t earn salvation to GOD but they will desire to change and not desire to live like they did before.

I would add that the goal for every believer is to go onto good works. Unfortunately, not every believer has proper discipleship, reads the word, or have a bible believing church to attend. They may end up falling back into the world's system.

 

[Chester]

Some simple equations to sum up different beliefs

Salvation = Faith - Works (Word of Faith Churches)

Salvation = Faith + Works (Catholics, Mormons, any churches that don't subscribe to OSAS)

Saving Faith = Salvation + Works (Those who like to quote James, who distinguish between true saving faith and dead faith, who say things like "Works don't save you but salvation need to have works after that, to show true faith)

GULP . . . . ah, what . . . It is much easier to write what a person wishes was true of others than to ask them and to objectively listen and examine the evidence. . .

 

[Chester]

How is it possible to not see the contradiction in this post?

You say your Salvation is secured by Jesus, but then say you can lose it!

So either Jesus has to fail in securing you, or you have to work to keep it secured.

Which is it?

If the person has not part at all in the salvation process, then you have 5 -point Calvinism.

To be consistent one has either to be a 5 - point Calvinist or not take any of the 5 points of Calvinism.

 

[Chester]

I am a total believer in Salvation is by Faith alone in the Atonement secured by Jesus alone..

But i do not believe in OSAS.. They are two seperate issues..

I do not believe in OSAS either, but I do not believe we are saved by faith alone. Really there is no such thing as "faith alone". I would rather say we are saved by grace through faith.

 

[crossnote]

Why are we now known as sons of God? Because the adoption is guaranteed! It's going to happen regardless of us!

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is a future event. It's the redemption of our bodies. When that happens, we will be totally in the image of Christ, body, soul and spirit. Our bodies are yet to be redeemed.

You still need to explain why the adoption is future when Scripture says in more than one place 'we are NOW SONS'.

 

[John146]

You still need to explain why the adoption is future when Scripture says in more than one place 'we are NOW SONS'.

Is Romans addressing believers? Romans 8:23 plainly states that we're waiting for the adoption, to whit, the redemption of our bodies. Is your body redeemed?

Using the verse you quoted earlier:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We do not appear to be sons of God yet, but we will at the adoption. When the adoption occurs, we will be conformed in the image of Christ. We will be 100% redeemed body, soul and spirit.

Romans 8
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Holy Spirit is the witness in us that we are sons of God. There's coming a day when the adoption is fully taken place and we will be glorified together as sons of God. That day we will appear as the image of Christ. The bodies we live in now do not bare Christ's image. Our bodies are still corrupt, in need of redeeming.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I do not believe in OSAS either, but I do not believe we are saved by faith alone. Really there is no such thing as "faith alone". I would rather say we are saved by grace through faith.

How about we are saved by Grace alone through faith alone to the glory of GOD alone.

 

[garee]

I don't want to get into another debate about calvinist OSAS.. But i will say The Holy Spirit seals all who God has foreknown from the foundation of the World who will persist in belief and not fall away into deception and delusion..

And Faith is not a Works according to the Bible.. But yeah it's all been debated before.. many many times in this forum..

Hi thanks for the reply

Faith without works is deader than a door nail. They cannot be separate.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Notice it does not say will die but is dead

Faith like these body of flesh and blood without the spirit essence of life "is dead"... having no spirit life . It is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God that gives spirit life The flesh of Son of man profits for nothing. It is the faith of Christ that works in us, with us to both will and do His good pleasure that does profit.

I would offer first and foremost. Faith the working ability to see the unseen things needed to believe God is not something we are born with. And therefore we had no way to seek after God in order that we could understand our unseen God.

An example. Suppose our faithful Creator had a plan to create something of substance and hoping by faith it would appear but no work was done nothing would appear

If we would separate the work "let there be" from the plan of faith nothing would appear.

Having a faith it would appear he exercised his faith by speaking the Word. In the beginning was the Word . It has no beginning.

Question. What if man did hear the word of God but it worked out that he did not believe? would his unbeleif make the faith of Christ by which other believe God without effect?

 

[John146]

You still need to explain why the adoption is future when Scripture says in more than one place 'we are NOW SONS'.

I might add that the adoption is what the believer has been predestined for. Once you have believed the gospel and placed into the body of Christ, you have been predestined for the adoption which is the redemption of your body. It has not happened yet. It's a future promise for the believer. Pre...before it takes place, destination...the destination for the believer. The believer's destination is to be conformed in the image of Christ. This takes place at the adoption.

 

[John146]

Hi thanks for the reply

Faith without works is deader than a door nail. They cannot be separate.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Notice it does not say will die but is dead

Faith like these body of flesh and blood without the spirit essence of life "is dead"... having no spirit life . It is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God that gives spirit life The flesh of Son of man profits for nothing. It is the faith of Christ that works in us, with us to both will and do His good pleasure that does profit.

I would offer first and foremost. Faith the working ability to see the unseen things needed to believe God is not something we are born with. And therefore we had no way to seek after God in order that we could understand our unseen God.

An example. Suppose our faithful Creator had a plan to create something of substance and hoping by faith it would appear but no work was done nothing would appear

If we would separate the work "let there be" from the plan of faith nothing would appear.

Having a faith it would appear he exercised his faith by speaking the Word. In the beginning was the Word . It has no beginning.

Question. What if man did hear the word of God but it worked out that he did not believe? would his unbeleif make the faith of Christ by which other believe God without effect?

Thankfully, the believer is justified by the faith of Christ and not their own individual faith. No works required.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This places all the work on the Lord Jesus Christ. His faith was evident in His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[PennEd]

If the person has not part at all in the salvation process, then you have 5 -point Calvinism.

To be consistent one has either to be a 5 - point Calvinist or not take any of the 5 points of Calvinism.

The only "points" I adhere to are the ones made in Scripture!

I have never read a single page of anything John Calvin ever wrote. I really didn't even know what a Calvinist or Arminian was up until 4 or 5 yrs ago. And I have been a Christian for over 25 yrs.

So please try not to label me.

I simply can not reckon how someone can conceive and birth themselves. We absolutely know we had NOTHING to do with our physical birth, so why would we think we have anything to do with our Spiritual birth at conversion? Especially since Scripture TELLS US we had NOTHING to do with becoming born again.

Now. If Jesus tells us He will secure our Salvation and never leave us, how will HE FAIL in doing just that?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Hi thanks for the reply

Faith without works is deader than a door nail. They cannot be separate.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Is faith without work dead to GOD or Is faith without work dead to men?

The thief on the cross had no work,was faith Without work dead?

 

[crossnote]

Is Romans addressing believers? Romans 8:23 plainly states that we're waiting for the adoption, to whit, the redemption of our bodies. Is your body redeemed?

Using the verse you quoted earlier:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We do not appear to be sons of God yet, but we will at the adoption. When the adoption occurs, we will be conformed in the image of Christ. We will be 100% redeemed body, soul and spirit.

Romans 8
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Holy Spirit is the witness in us that we are sons of God. There's coming a day when the adoption is fully taken place and we will be glorified together as sons of God. That day we will appear as the image of Christ. The bodies we live in now do not bare Christ's image. Our bodies are still corrupt, in need of redeeming.

I'm not speaking about the redemption of our bodies, but our sonship and for some crazy reason you are trying to make a case that we are not sons yet.

Galatians 4:6 KJV
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Do you have His Spirit?