Imagine Heaven

Desertsrose · Feb 9, 2019

Hi Guys,

I've been missing in action for over a year. My husband and I both had some health issues. Things have seemed to calm down somewhat. Hopefully I'll be able to join in more often.

I wanted to ask if any of you have read this book, Imagine Heaven and what your thoughts are on NDE. (Near death experiences) The author of the book is an emergent type pastor, John Burke. An acquaintance of mine is recommending the book saying the author proves having a NDE is all biblical.

I have looked into some who claimed they made a trip to heaven, but some of the things they say are extra biblical without a scriptural foundation. One Christian boy who said he went to heaven and even had a book written about his claim, later said he lied about everything.

Anyway, I just thought I'd ask what your views are. John MacArthur has an article on his website and says it's not biblical at all. https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B140429

JaumeJ · Feb 10, 2019

Whenever I have thought on our Maker, His Glory and His Kingdom, when I actually meditate theron, I am overwhelmed and awed, but neer am I capable of truly understanding it; it is soo glorious and wondrous for my mind. Praise God, amen.

Subhumanoidal · Feb 10, 2019

Desertsrose said:

I've always questioned these claims. I feel mostly they go against the bible. But those that want to believe otherwise find obscure scriptures or twist to fit it. So many are so eager for such things they'll ignore discernment in favor of things that sound spiritual, regardless of biblical evidence or even using caution.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 10, 2019

Desertsrose said:

Hi Desertrose, and welcome back. I had wondered in the past whatever happened to you.

Anyhow, the only NDE in the Bible is that of the apostle Paul, who literally went to Paradise in Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 12:1-10). And even he was not sure if that was in his body or out of his body.

As to the claims made by people today, one would have to take them with a grain of salt. And if an Emergent Church pastor is writing about this, even more care is needed.

JaumeJ · Feb 10, 2019

Subhumanoidal said:

Eye hath not seen nor ear hath heard.......... No mere mind of a man can possibly fathom the glory we shall live in eternally.

dcontroversal · Feb 10, 2019

I do not buy it.....especially the ones who say they died and seen hell................even the men who were allowed glimpses of heaven like Paul, John and possibly Ezekiel were very vague and even stated there were things that were not lawful to utter.........have the people had "experiences"......possibly some, but to say with 100% certainty that they have seen heaven and or hell makes me highly suspect......other than when Paul was stoned and left for dead.....do we have ONE example of a man in the bible having a near death experience after the manner of what is being reported today?

Lanolin · Feb 10, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Actually it was not Paul, it was someone he knew. And he was not actually in heaven, he was given a vision or revelation.
It was actually John because hes the one given revelation, but Paul doesnt explictly say this. But it is obvious in the Bible the visions were given to John in the isle of Patmos in the very last book of the Bible.

So read that before you go believing any NDEs.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 10, 2019

Lanolin said:

If you read the entire chapter, Paul is indeed talking about himself. And because it was Paul, he was given that thorn in the flesh. Let's not start inventing scenarios.

Desertsrose · Feb 10, 2019

JaumeJ said:

Amen, Jaumel! I agree! \o/

stonesoffire · Feb 10, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Hi Dcon

Did you ever look at the words unspeakable and lawful in that scripture , not lawful to utter?

Might change your thinking.

crossnote · Feb 10, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Paul even went on to say it was unlawful to speak of the things he heard uttered, yet many of these today claiming to have been swept into God's presence just yap yap yap $$$.

2 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Desertsrose · Feb 10, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Thanks Nehemiah!

I was thinking of Paul's experience too. But that wasn't a near death experience was it? I think of his as being similar to John's visions.

I think of Stephen at his stoning. He saw heaven and Jesus at God's right hand. Isaiah saw the throne room with God's train filling the temple, Jacob saw angels ascending and descending the stairs to heaven, Ezekiel saw numerous and amazing visions of heaven. That's all that I can think of at the moment.

I don't know anything about the pastor except that he wrote this book and that he's emergent. That's always a red flag for me. I was hoping that someone here might have read the book so that I could share some concerns with the woman who is recommending it to me.

I looked online for a book review. Tim Challis does read books and reviews them, but I didn't find this one on his list. Maybe I'll go on Amazon and see if there are any reviews that may be a 1 or 2 star. The only other thing I can think of is to read the book myself.

Desertsrose · Feb 10, 2019

dcontroversal said:

I do not buy it.....especially the ones who say they died and seen hell................even the men who were allowed glimpses of heaven like Paul, John and possibly Ezekiel were very vague and even stated there were things that were not lawful to utter.........have the people had "experiences"......possibly some, but to say with 100% certainty that they have seen heaven and or hell makes me highly suspect......other than when Paul was stoned and left for dead.....do we have ONE example of a man in the bible having a near death experience after the manner of what is being reported today?

Thanks dcon! None that I know of.

crossnote · Feb 10, 2019

You'd think Paul would have had a NDE after all he went through here...

2 Corinthians 11:23-27 (KJV) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

crossnote · Feb 10, 2019

The problem with NDEs is how do you know they are real or made up? Anyone can say anything.
But you can test whatever words were allegedly spoken during their 'experience' and if they contradict Scripture they are not to be believed.

Isaiah 8:20 (KJV) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

oldethennew · Feb 10, 2019

1COR. 2:9.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man,
the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.

JOHN 3:13.
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even The Son of man which is in heaven.

1JOHN 4:12.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His Love is perfected in us.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 10, 2019

Desertsrose said:

It could have been according to this Scripture:

And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe. (Acts 14:19,20)

Paul was stoned, just like Stephen (who died), and the crowd dragged him out of the city on the assumption that he was dead.

Lanolin · Feb 10, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

No, if you read what Paul was saying he KNEW A MAN. He didnt say it was himself. YOu need to read the entire chapter, and also read the entire book of Revelation. The revelation was not given to Paul, it was given to John.

Lanolin · Feb 10, 2019

If Paul had been given the revelation John was given, he would have indeed been puffed up. And he wouldnt have concentrated on sharing the gospel to the gentiles in the way he did. The glory that John revealed is the same glory Paul reveals through his infirmities - the glory of God.

Some people are given near death visions, but not everyone is. John was an apostle just as Paul was.

Anyway, its a common misreading because so many people assume it was Paul. If it really was Paul, he would have written the book of Revelation.

crossnote · Feb 10, 2019

Lanolin said:

Paul wasn't referring to John's vision because he said he heard words unlawful to utter. Problem is John uttered words he heard.

2 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Besides who says Paul would have been puffed up?

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