Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
In your first question above about gifts you are assuming things that I never said. Further more your line of questioning such as A, B, C, takes me right back to the 12 week fundamentals of the faith class of 40 years ago. The class was beneficial because is gave me a rock solid foundation whereby I could grow my new faith in Jesus Christ.



Your profile say's that you have been a Christian since 1988 that is about 30yrs that you have been a Christian. So please let me ask you the same question; and what do you think?

I believe boasting is for Christ alone and His works, you and I will be rewarded for our works.

A. Can we boast before God about our works?

Ephesians 2:8-10
8)
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9) not by works, so that no one can boast. 10) For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
You missed the whole point. No one can boast of salvation because it is by grace, a gift, and not of ourselves. But some say that salvation is of God and works are ours. So salvation, to them, is not of ourselves, but works are. But the Bible says "without Him we can do nothing". That is why we cannot boast in anything, BECAUSE WE HAVE NO GOOD THING THAT WE DID NOT RECEIVE FROM GOD
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I am saying that works salvation is nonsense because we cannot use what we have received from God, which is EVERYTHING that is good, and then think these free gifts can be meritorious, ie if we have nothing good that we did not receive from God, how can we claim that our works are meritorious


You guys are arguing with someone who is not only saying that salvation is all from God, but also that all that is good comes from God, and apart from Him we have nothing and can do nothing. This destroys the concept that we somehow earn salvation by our works

Highest view of Grace possible is what I am presenting

Well you can present the highest view of grace you want but it still has to be scriptural.

Our works are never meritorious, but the Christian can please God.

Who is claiming works are meritorious?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Well you can present the highest view of grace you want but it still has to be scriptural.

Our works are never meritorious, but the Christian can please God.

Who is claiming works are meritorious?
He absolutely cannot accept the fact that works are NOT A GIFT, but rather SOMETHING WE DO and then GET PAID FOR (REWARD)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
Do you believe it can be lost or forfeit?
I believe that the person believing in Jesus is saved and the person who does not believe (an unbeliever) is not saved. Not sure why all the questions about salvation being lost or forfeited. I don't worry about that: I focus on believing in Jesus and his death and resurrection.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
He absolutely cannot accept the fact that works are NOT A GIFT, but rather SOMETHING WE DO and then GET PAID FOR (REWARD)
Well that is a new one........the Christian who is now without a will and whose physical body suddenly becomes automated to perform good works ...is this like the gift of tongues....hehehe
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
I used to think Galatians was the main book to look to concerning being against legalism, but it is Romans in my view that best explains it
I like Galatians and Romans also, but I think that possibly James is one of the best in addressing legalism.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
...But I am afraid that just as Eve was DECEIVED by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be LED ASTRAY from your sincere and pure DEVOTION TO CHRIST. (see john 14:15-24 & luke 6:46) 2 Corinthians 11:3

Why do you think that BELIEVERS were warned not to be DECEIVED?

...He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who HEARS THE WORD and at once RECEIVES IT with joy. But since he has NO ROOT, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly FALLS AWAY. The one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell among the thorns is the man who HEARS THE WORD, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it UNFRUITFUL. But the one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell on good soil is the man who HEARS THE WORD and UNDERSTANDS IT. He PRODUCES A CROP, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

The Parable of the Weeds
...Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in HIS FIELD. But while everyone was sleeping, HIS ENEMY came and SOWED WEEDS AMONG THE WHEATS, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” Matthew 13:11-30


Both the weeds and wheat grow in the same FIELD.

...The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and THEY WILL WEED OUT OF HIS KINGDOM everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:38-43

Who will the angels WEED OUT of GOD'S KINGDOM? Aren't they supposed to belong to GOD'S kingdom first before they can be weeded out of it?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL APPEAR AND DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,(becoming DISOBEDIENT, because LOVE IS WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS) but he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:10-14

...."I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD; OBEY IT, and REPENT. But if you do not WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3

The church is the BODY OF CHRIST whom He will SAVE. Ephesians 5:23 WEEDED OUT OF every wickedness

So to those who reject and nullify God's word and refuse to take heed of God's warnings about the appearance of the DECEIVER with his FALSE CHRISTS, PROPHETS AND .TEACHERS, the LIARS who do not have the TRUTH in them...DO NOT BE ARROGANT BUT BE AFRAID…

...For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. Romans 11:21-22

...The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE.” Luke 3:7-9

...See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Hebrews 12:25
 
May 20, 2018
225
117
43
Ohio
Our works cannot save us,for our works is as filthy rags,and there is none that does good,no not one,and all are sinners and come short of the glory of God.

So no matter what we do we cannot ever do good enough to receive salvation.

In that position the only thing we can do to correct this position is to have faith,that is why we are saved by faith for that is all we can do,for our works cannot do it.

All we have to do is believe.

Paul said we are not saved by works,but by accepting Christ,which he was addressing Gentiles,and their false religions,that thought they could have favor with God by their religious ways,but Paul said you are not saved by those works but by confessing Christ.

Paul was speaking from a fleshy perspective,not saved by works,and James is speaking from a spiritual perspective,accepting Christ,and being led of the Spirit,justified by works and not faith alone.

If a person does confess Christ,they only have to love people for love is the fulfilling of the law,which is what James is saying,and that is why he said if you do not feed someone when you can,then how do you have faith,and any work they would do apart from that,loving people,like if they go by Old Testament physical ordinances,or do something that another religion would do has no bearing on their salvation,but a waste of time.

Paul,not saved by works,James,but led of the Spirit loving people to have faith active in our life.[/QUOT
"ACCEPT" Christ? Does it use that word? If it does,what do I accept? What am I supposed to believe in him that holds the key to eternal life?
 
May 20, 2018
225
117
43
Ohio
We know them by what they produce, if you produce nothing, then.... You're all talk
So if you saw me outside a grocery store waiting to help the feeble put their groceries in their vehicle and I was wearing a "Jesus Saves" shirt, then would you believe i was justified in my faith?
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
Hi preston39, the book of 1st John say's these things were written that we may "know that we have eternal life." How do you explain the fact that the bible say's "may know that we have eternal life?

And you say we are not even saved while on this earth......wow that's not even, "good news."


1John5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so "that you may know that you have eternal life."​
Don't seem so confounded. Not my words...they are G-d's..... in scripture.

How can anyone conclude ..saved...before death?

While on this earth we are born again. That is different than saved. Born again status can be lost before death. The Bible warns in many ways.

"Saved......past tense. This means G-d has no authority to pass judgement on you/me after our physical death...that is in direct conflict with G-d's plan for us. Yet that is the written plan in the Bible. I doubt He is happy with us to conclude ...saved......before He has the time and place to past judgement...do you?
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,732
3,559
113
I have always enjoyed your spirit.....and agree with many things you have said.......not all....but a lot..... ;)
Thank you, dc. The feeling is mutual.

Your warrior spirit as a defender of Truth is highly respected by me and I enjoy you challenging what I believe.

I’m never offended by you, only challenged. I enjoy it very much!:love:(y)
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Well you can present the highest view of grace you want but it still has to be scriptural.

Our works are never meritorious, but the Christian can please God.

Who is claiming works are meritorious?
Hi UnderGrace, you are 100 percent correct because "zero" people are claiming works are "meritorious." What I did say in my post to Macareus that, "we will receive rewards for works, but I think his comment goes beyond anything I have said...:)
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

John 10:28-30 (HCSB)
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”

1 Peter 1:5 (HCSB)
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:8-9 (HCSB)
8 You love Him, though you have not seen Him. And though not seeing Him now, you believe in Him and rejoice with inexpressible and glorious joy,
9 because you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
You are mixing apples with oranges; It is G-d's desire that none perish...but, If we do not maintain until the end.....we will not receive eternal salvation.

OSAS is not only applying ...saved...wrong...because they improperly used ...saved....where born again applies. OSAS is a new age religion interpretation of The Bible and has only been around the Christian community since 1960....that I can find in
research.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Here it is GB9, point 1 , a person can be saved for years without bearing fruit..

What do you say now, Maestro?

Just like he said in the other posts. DID YOU HEAR HIM? HE said "I WILL SAY IT AGAIN". You did not see it because of your apriori BIAS

Now leave off the silliness

DID YOU GET IT THIS TIME?!!! or will you ONCE AGAIN deny what is clearly PUT RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU

There is some serious bias and prejudice going on here, and you proved it.

Have a nice day. I'm going to a play.
Isn't that true of fruit trees?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
You are mixing apples with oranges; It is G-d's desire that none perish...but, If we do not maintain until the end.....we will not receive eternal salvation.

OSAS is not only applying ...saved...wrong...because they improperly used ...saved....where born again applies. OSAS is a new age religion interpretation of The Bible and has only been around the Christian community since 1960....that I can find in
research.
So much error in this post ad such a deceptive spirit no need to engage this drivel.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Isn't that true of fruit trees?
Sure it is...he is too dense to understand the truth...........and make no mistake about it, the bible is replete with natural examples used by JESUS and others to point to obvious spiritual truth.........

But then again, when one makes works out to be a gift instead of the result of faith and salvation....we cannot expect much in the way of the truth....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Thank you, dc. The feeling is mutual.

Your warrior spirit as a defender of Truth is highly respected by me and I enjoy you challenging what I believe.

I’m never offended by you, only challenged. I enjoy it very much!:love:(y)
Thanks and I appreciate it......
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Don't seem so confounded. Not my words...they are G-d's..... in scripture.

How can anyone conclude ..saved...before death?

While on this earth we are born again. That is different than saved. Born again status can be lost before death. The Bible warns in many ways.

"Saved......past tense. This means G-d has no authority to pass judgement on you/me after our physical death...that is in direct conflict with G-d's plan for us. Yet that is the written plan in the Bible. I doubt He is happy with us to conclude ...saved......before He has the time and place to past judgement...do you?
Are you serious?
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

How can anyone conclude ..saved...before death?

 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
43
No, actually I love the truth and despise deceivers that devalue Christ, his work, promises and power while reducing the eternal life and salvation he gives eternally by faith to a dime store revolving door that can be lost like a dime in the park....and only a fool would say there is no sky...........it, along with all deceivers will be burned up when God sweeps the planet with the besom of destruction....

as far as my name.......it was chosen for me by AOL in 2007 when they actually had chat rooms.......it has nothing to do with me loving and or promoting controversy.......
I jumped the gun with your name...... so i take back everything i thought about you. LOL