Hi devo,
I'm not quite sure what you mean but people saying that the Jews are not Jews "AT ALL."
Are they suggesting that they physically do not have the DNA of Jewish people (like the real Jewish people were secretly extinct long ago)? Or are they saying that the Jewish people are no longer the "chosen people" of God, but rather those who have the faith of Abraham are the true children of Abraham?
If it is the latter I think there is a fairly strong case for it. Jesus was fairly clear about people who reject him and he was fairly clear about the seed of Abraham.
Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Jhn 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.
Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word
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In vs 37 he acknowledges their physical claim to Abraham.
However, in vs 38 and 39 he claims they have a DIFFERENT father from Abraham. He has switched over from the physical side of it to the spiritual side.
In vs 40 he makes a case for why they are spiritually NOT the descendents of Abraham, and his case is built squarly on faith, NOT DNA.
In vs 41 and 42 he makes it even clearer. They are NOT the children of God because they rejected him. The implication here (and with the other verses about the faith of Abraham) is that those who ACCEPT him ARE the real children of God.
In vs 43 he expresses a sentiment that I have felt many times on this same forum when trying to talk about obedience to the teachings of Jesus and what I suspect many people will probably express in response to this post (i.e. that no matter what Jesus or anyone has to say about it, flesh DNA Jews are still the "chosen" people of God despite their total lack of faith in and rejection of Jesus.)
hi CCG!
nice to see you read your Bible.
Matthew 13:23
As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
this simple beautiful reality, that the Bible is all about Jesus Christ the Redeemer who was Promised to come at the specified time and fulfill the Covenant Promises doesn't seem to be popular...it wasn't 2,000 years ago and it causes a lot of division today as well.
the stories go something like this:
at the turn of the last century western Christendom was infiltrated by a strange set of teachings, some doctrines of devils that brought in the charismatic activity; some based on jewish fables which said national israel would reign during a temporal golden age; some which said in order for this to happen there had to be a secret rapture of the (gentile?) church off the earth.... - these teachings all have one thing in common: they say that Jesus did not fulfill His promises to National Israel at the First Advent (and continues to do so daily) as many as are called are added to His Promised Church...this feeds in nicely to an expectation for another messiah.
you see, Jesus is sitting around on His hands or something - He's not King yet. He can't be because though many Israelites (the remnant) received Him when He came, not every single one who ever lived did (even though The Word said it would go that way), and so we must stop the presses and wait for thousands of years and create a new system of Law and Grace and Law and temporal things.
these teachings say that in effect, Jesus though He came once , somehow His death on the Cross and Resurrection didn't make a full end to sacrifice and sin, didn't usher in everlasting Righteousness. Daniel's weeks have to stop - we need 7 years in the future for a return to animal sacrifice.
so, the 70th week prophesied by Daniel was severed from the other 69, and dragged 2,000 years (or more?) into the future in order to have national israel restored by returning to Law (?) and animal sacrifices (?). in order to do this, since God made a Promise to redeem Israel, every single jew who ever died will be resurrected for a 1,000 time period in the future: but raised not to eternal life YET, back into a corruptible flesh body. so we have a possible third Advent, and 3 resurrections (or more).
we're not sure where the Church will actually be during this time...either reigning literally on earth with the Glorified Christ (against whom flesh men still rebel at the end of this long period of time)...in which case the Glorified but not totally Authoritative visible Jesus and the glorified saints (gentiles?) seem to be able to move around in and out of realms, teaching (?) flesh people about (Law? Grace?) how to be saved).
we're not really sure what goes on during this time.
in order for this to work, Daniel's 70th week (which in actuality saw fulfillment in the Crucifixtion/Resurrection/Ascension/Pentecost and destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD) was mysteriously postponed and dragged far into the future, since when He came unto His own, His own received Him not, God had to scramble to adjust His Plan and decided to make a gentile church which would exist in a long period of time, while the jews were blinded for the gentiles sake to "come in" (this was in reality fulfilled after Pentecost according to the Scriptures, exactly as foretold).
these fables also need prophets like Jeremiah to NOT be prophesying of the return from exiles in Babylon etc. to the Land in time to receive THE COMPLETE FULFILLMENT OF THE PROMISE and redemption through Jesus Christ at the First Advent. those prophets have to be made to speak of some other restoration, some other time, some other king, some other kingdom than the eternal one.
we need prophets like ezekiel to NOT be seeing visions of the coming Christ and the New heaven and New Earth, New Jerusalem, we need this to be a third earthly temple that God WANTS for animal sacrifices.
but a bad pope or politician will step in like a meanie and stop the animal sacrifices which God is now pleased with....
also, according to these fussy stories we are to make much over geneologies, and cherry pick Mosiac Covenant Promises to make them binding on God who already said what and when promises would be fulfilled, what curses would be pronounced, etc.
in short: according to these stories, none of us has a Saviour yet, since The Lord's Work, in spite of His own words, is NOT FINISHED.
the story-tellers also refuse to aknowledge that the very same teachings from a corrupted and abominable religious sytem invented in Babylon (which make void the word of God) will somehow be pleasing to God today, though Jesus Himself said this about it, and those who cling to it:
John 5:36-
For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
but the story-tellers continue to rework the FULFILLED PROMISES, in spite of the clear warnings of Revelation 22.
anyways, perhaps they are right. maybe the simple and beautiful Plan of Redemption hasn't happened yet. in which case we are all dead in trespasses and sins, but we'll get another chance in another flesh body...won't we? hmmm. maybe i should be fussing over my geneology.....i hope i'm actually of ancient Israelite stock, because if i didn't get right with God when i believed in Jesus i'll get resurrected again for another shot at it.
take care
zone.
