Calvinism And Predestination

[FollowHisSteps]

In other word, you believe faith can die like tree and not agree with osas teaching. Am I correct?

Yes I do not agree with osas teaching in its absolute form.

But listen to Peter.

10 For if you do these things, you will never fall,
2 Peter

There is a sense in growing into the maturity of Christ we will never fall.
And equally if ones heart is open, and you have been transformed by the Spirit
and walk in obedience to love and the gospel, there is nothing against you.

But even here Paul was never arrogant.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect,
but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do:
Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead
Phil 3

So there is a tension between knowing Gods work in our hearts and also the road
ahead which we are called to follow.

And I do not hold with those who have lost faith are still saved.
Nor do I hold long term there are such things as carnal believers. They are people
who have yet to grasp the nature of love and have a transformed heart, but enjoy
the social aspects of the people of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes I do not agree with osas teaching in its absolute form.

But listen to Peter.

10 For if you do these things, you will never fall,
2 Peter

There is a sense in growing into the maturity of Christ we will never fall.
And equally if ones heart is open, and you have been transformed by the Spirit
and walk in obedience to love and the gospel, there is nothing against you.

But even here Paul was never arrogant.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect,
but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do:
Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead
Phil 3

So there is a tension between knowing Gods work in our hearts and also the road
ahead which we are called to follow.

And I do not hold with those who have lost faith are still saved.
Nor do I hold long term there are such things as carnal believers. They are people
who have yet to grasp the nature of love and have a transformed heart, but enjoy
the social aspects of the people of God.

You do not understand how depraved we are by our nature that is still with us even after we have been born again. Paul teaches us this fact when he discusses the warfare inside of him, the Spirit against the flesh. As he states, we do lose our battle to the flesh at times, but not our eternal salvation. We lose our fellowship with God, until we repent.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You do not understand how depraved we are by our nature that is still with us even after we have been born again. Paul teaches us this fact when he discusses the warfare inside of him, the Spirit against the flesh. As he states, we do lose our battle to the flesh at times, but not our eternal salvation. We lose our fellowship with God, until we repent.

I have had a sense of how lost we are all my life.
But I am transformed by Christ into a Holy, pure, blameless Child of God.

Now for this to be true, and for the apostles to walk with Jesus as they did,
depravity, perfection and walking with Jesus are different than we imagine.

For me this has been summarise by the concept of change, and God building
new things in our hearts through obedience. As many have now come to understand
our hearts and ways of living are more changeable than previously thought.
So when we talk about our present state this does not limit what we might become.

 

[Melach]

From the point of view of a person with a heart of stone it is better to have that heart of stone. That way it can no longer be hurt. It is strong and cannot be taken advantage of.

Everything in this life tells us we must be strong and not let people or circumstances take advantage of us if we have the power to do so.

From the point of view of a person with a heart of flesh it is better to have that heart of flesh. That way we can begin to respond to what we were always supposed to respond to. God.

But how can those with the heart of flesh ever say that it was their wise choice that caused God to give them that heart of flesh?
How can those with the heart of flesh say that it was their good work that caused them to have that heart of flesh?

If these people with the heart of flesh know that it was God, and God alone, that did the work to give them this heart of flesh, how can they say they WEREN'T predestined by God who is all-knowing?

dear friend are you a calvinist? could you answer my questions on page 1? i ask in love, not to spite or debate

 

[justpassinthrough]

Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?

Everyone must chose to obey the Gospel and continue in the faith to the end, in order to be saved.


Here is the choice for the born again Christian, to obey the truth or obey unrighteousness.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

JPT

 

[Grandpa]

dear friend are you a calvinist? could you answer my questions on page 1? i ask in love, not to spite or debate

I have agreed with Calvins interpretation of theology.

If that makes a person a Calvinist then yes.

thank you friend

i want to ask calvinists if there are any here some questions but first i want to say i have nothing personal against anyone and enjoy many calvinist pastors but i ask why does God say things like this if the reason people do evil is because God doesnt irresistably give them grace to save them from their total depravity?

Jeremiah 36:3
Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, they will each turn from their wicked ways; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin."

Jeremiah 18:11
Now therefore, tell the men of Judah and residents of Jerusalem that this is what the LORD says: 'Behold, I am planning a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. Turn now, each of you, from your evil ways, and correct your ways and deeds.'

1 Samuel 13:13
"You have done a foolish thing," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

Isaiah 48:17-18
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you for your benefit,
who directs you in the way you should go.
If only you had paid attention to My commandments,
your peace would have been like a river,
and your righteousness like waves of the sea.

Psalm 81:13
If only My people would listen to Me, if Israel would follow My ways,

there are so many pleas like this. i dont know how calvinists can fit them to their doctrinal ideas? are all these pleas for repentance not genuine? God knows they cant repent cause of total depravity, unless He regenerates them first. so why does He ask that instead of just regenerating them if He wants them saved?

You think because something is written in the bible it gives people the power to do it?

No, of course not. The bible is written to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

John 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Do you understand this?

 

[Melach]

I have agreed with Calvins interpretation of theology.

If that makes a person a Calvinist then yes.


You think because something is written in the bible it gives people the power to do it?

No, of course not. The bible is written to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

John 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Do you understand this?

i understand yes but these were God's chosen people israel to who He sent those prophets telling them repent! return from idolatry! but why if they cant?

 

[Grandpa]

i understand yes but these were God's chosen people israel to who He sent those prophets telling them repent! return from idolatry! but why if they cant?

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Melach]

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

i agree. but what is the purpose of the prophets calling out people to repentance if they have no option to do that?

 

[Nehemiah6]

No, of course not. The bible is written to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

And what is the purpose of the preaching of the Gospel, other than to generate faith in Christ and bring men to repentance? Kindly study Romans 10 in depth, which includes this truth "But they have not all obeyed the Gospel". Calvinists simply ignore the FACT that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16).

 

[NayborBear]

The following text (Ezekiel 11, in part) reminds me a little of Romans 11:25[15] "a hardening in part is happened to Israel UNTIL" (see also Rom9:26/Hos1:10 re: Israel [whereas Rom9:25/Hos2:23b is re: the Gentiles]) and Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 (the "dry bones" prophecy [parallel Dan12:1-4, etc]) and Luke 19:41-44 (Jesus' words ['BUT NOW they are hid from thine eyes'] on Palm Sunday [the fulfillment of the 69 Wks], just before going to the Cross later that very week):

Ezekiel 11 [bsb] -

9 I will bring you out of the city and hand you over to foreigners; I will execute judgments against you. 10 You will fall by the sword, and I will judge you to the border of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

11 The city will not be a pot for you, nor will you be the meat within it. I will judge you even to the borders of Israel. 12 Then you will know that I am the LORD. For you have neither followed My statutes nor practiced my ordinances, but you have conformed to the ordinances of the nations around you.”

A Promise of Restoration

13 Now as I was prophesying, Pelatiah son of Benaiah died. Then I fell facedown and cried out in a loud voice, “Oh, Lord GOD, will You bring the remnant of Israel to a complete end?”

14 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 15 “Son of man, your brothers—your relatives, your fellow exiles, and the whole house of Israel—are those of whom the people of Jerusalem have said, ‘They are far from the LORD; this land has been given us as a possession.’

16 Therefore declare that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Although I sent them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries, yet for a little while I have been a sanctuary for them in the countries to which they have gone.’

17 Therefore declare that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you from the countries to which you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel.’

18 ‘When they return to it, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them; I will remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, 20 so that they may follow My statutes, keep My ordinances, and practice them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God.

21 But as for those whose hearts pursue detestable things and abominations, I will bring their conduct down upon their own heads, declares the Lord GOD.’”

God's Glory Leaves Jerusalem

22 Then the cherubim, with the wheels beside them, spread their wings, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them. 23 And the glory of the LORD rose up from within the city and stood over the mountain east of the city.

24 The Spirit lifted me up and carried me back to Chaldea [or, Babylonia] to the exiles in the vision given by the Spirit of God. After the vision I had seen had gone up from me, 25 I told the exiles everything the LORD had shown me.

Ezekiel 11
17 Therefore declare that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you from the countries to which you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel.’
18 ‘When they return to it, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations (CIRCA:1948-THE FIG TREE RE-ESTABLISHED!).
19 And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them; I will remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, 20 so that they may follow My statutes, keep My ordinances, and practice them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God.

As recent "events" in Israel, concerning her "sovereignty" (even) over the Golan Heights, should be telling us?
There is MORE to "HIS-STORY" (everlasting Gospel), then the "Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Problems, arguments, debates, and (even) apostasies, arise, when one SUPERSEDES, the Gospel of Jesus Christ "template", OVER the Everlasting Gospel "template." (read the parables of Jesus, as He was ALSO teaching this EVERLASTING GOSPEL!)

BOTH are EQUALLY important! One cannot simply STOP "amidst" God's Grace, and Loving Kindness, "IN, but just as importantly THROUGH the Gospel of Jesus Christ of "COMING UNTO THE FATHER!"

When one, or a group of "believers" STOP "pressing ON to the High Calling of GOD in Christ (which, btw, INCLUDES being CONFESSED by Christ TO "the Father?"

They START trying to "justify" a vanity of this "cessation of forward progress", by?
Well? Let's take a look at Paul's advice and warning to Timothy.
2 Timothy 2
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace THAT IS IN Christ Jesus. (hinting towards the High CALLING of GOD)
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. (yea, EVEN in our Bibles)
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, BUT TO THE SUBVERTING of the hearers. (can we say BLIND/FALSE shepherds?)
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

It is my belief, this advice/warning from Paul?
Has not been HEEDED very well! AT ALL!

Yanno? There's written in the O.T. "warnings" from The Father, concerning "NETS, TRAPS, SNARES!"
MANY people think, and believe these were done away with! That there AIN'T "none of these" SINCE Jesus Christ!"
They would be WRONG!
Hint:
Matthew 7
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Me? I want to be "judged!" And, I told God exactly that! Cuz, I know I ain't prefect! Although, it took some time "paying every farthing" with "spiritual sacrifices", before I realized that "in prison" was where I was!
After I realized what "every farthing" meant? And, what the Father meant when He said "line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept"...but ESPECIALLY "Here a little!" "THERE, a little!" That I realized He was talking to me in my own language, when He told me: "It HAS to be done THIS way!" "In a CERTAIN order!" (and?) "INCREMENTALLY!"

So when I THOUGHT I was "done?" I would say again "Judge me!" "So that I may judge!" He would say to me "Not to worry boy!" "You have a "way of conversing, and understanding the english language, that I CAN and SHALL use, in your passing on the "emotional INTENT" that is SO OFT TIMES " stoically read over", or, worse, WILLINGLY "read over!"
This is the "why" my Keep It Simple Stupid appraoch, to the teachings and preachings of the Bible are oft times dissed, by those of (how can I say) "Higher "Levels" of Biblical Knowledge?" Or "psychology", or "sociology." Which, to the unlearned? May "seem" they know what they are talking about. But, in (a) reality? They are more subscribing to the "scribes" in Jesus' day, and politicians from EVERY day: "If ya can't DAZZLE 'em with BRILLIANCE?" (then, at LEAST) "BAFFLE 'EM!"

God's ELECT, can "see right THROUGH the Mr. Cellophane's!"
The "sheeples?" Not so much!

Because? I simply refuse to go into those "levels of vanity!" (self righteousness)

 

[NayborBear]

And what is the purpose of the preaching of the Gospel, other than to generate faith in Christ and bring men to repentance? Kindly study Romans 10 in depth, which includes this truth "But they have not all obeyed the Gospel". Calvinists simply ignore the FACT that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16).

No? Calvinists do not ignore the FACT that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16)

Calvinists, at least I do anyway, Consider that believers who "only HOLD to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" Have "thrown the baby of the Everlasting Gospel, out with the bathwater, of the Grace, loving kindness, AND salvation, "FROM THE FATHER AND GOD", that comes in the form of Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

 

[Nehemiah6]

No? Calvinists do not ignore the FACT that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16)

Calvinists, at least I do anyway, Consider that believers who "only HOLD to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" Have "thrown the baby of the Everlasting Gospel, out with the bathwater, of the Grace, loving kindness, AND salvation, "FROM THE FATHER AND GOD", that comes in the form of Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

Your post makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Melach]

it looks to me like calvinism is very complicated. maybe its a issue with my mind

but its just very confusing to me. effectual call, general call, common grace irresistable grace, prescriptive will decretive will.
like there is two of everything. very hard to keep up with this

 

[Nehemiah6]

...very hard to keep up with this...

No need really. Just read John chapter 3 daily, and discover through the simple and powerful words of Christ that Calvinism is a BOGUS GOSPEL.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

prescriptive will decretive will.

About the "decretive [G1012 - boulen] will" :

Luke 7:29-30 [blb] -

29 And all the people having heard, even the tax collectors, declared God righteous, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulen] of God as to [eis] themselves, not having been baptized by him.

This "G1012 - boulen" word is the same word in Ephesians 1:11 that Calvinists point to in order to make their case regarding how His "decretive-will [determined-plan/decree-G1012-boulen]" cannot ever be "rejected/resisted," but we see in Luke 7:29-30 that the Pharisees and lawyers did just that (re: themselves) during the time-frame that John's baptism was His will [decretive-will, G1012] and "in play," so to speak.

Some argue that "they were only doing what God decreed for them to do," but that isn't the point I'm making; I am pointing out how Calvinism says that "His decreed-will [G1012 - boulen] CANNOT be resisted or rejected," but THIS text states that these individuals did that very thing ("rejected the will [G1012 - boulen] of God" eis/unto themselves, "being not baptized of him [John]").

 

[Melach]

About the "decretive [G1012 - boulen] will" :

Luke 7:29-30 [blb] -

29 And all the people having heard, even the tax collectors, declared God righteous, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulen] of God as to [eis] themselves, not having been baptized by him.

This "G1012 - boulen" word is the same word in Ephesians 1:11 that Calvinists point to in order to make their case regarding how His "decretive-will [determined-plan/decree-G1012-boulen]" cannot ever be "rejected/resisted," but we see in Luke 7:29-30 that the Pharisees and lawyers did just that (re: themselves) during the time-frame that John's baptism was His will [decretive-will, G1012] and "in play," so to speak.

Some argue that "they were only doing what God decreed for them to do," but that isn't the point I'm making; I am pointing out how Calvinism says that "His decreed-will [G1012 - boulen] CANNOT be resisted or rejected," but THIS text states that these individuals did that very thing ("rejected the will [G1012 - boulen] of God" eis/unto themselves, "being not baptized of him [John]").

thank you dear friend. thats the end of calvinism.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(CIRCA:1948-THE FIG TREE RE-ESTABLISHED!).

Perhaps you haven't read where I've written about what I believe "the fig tree" represents [instead of what you have here ^ suggested I believe ], or maybe I've not written a whole lot on that (since I've been on CC, I don't recall if I've mentioned it much), so I will put a portion of it here:

In Jesus' parables (at least one, Lk13) regarding "fig tree," it says, "A certain man had a FIG TREE planted *IN* his vineyard"... and Isaiah 5:7 says, "For the vineyard of the LORD of Hosts is the house of Israel...".

So, we notice a couple things: the "fig tree" IS DISTINCT FROM "his vineyard [which is 'the house of Israel']" IN WHICH the "fig tree" was planted. They are not the same thing, not identical entities!


[additionally, I believe ALL of Matthew 24-25 FOLLOWS our Rapture, incl'g Matt24:32 ]

 

[Melach]

Perhaps you haven't read where I've written about what I believe "the fig tree" represents [instead of what you have here ^ suggested I believe ], or maybe I've not written a whole lot on that (since I've been on CC, I don't recall if I've mentioned it much), so I will put a portion of it here:

In Jesus' parables (at least one, Lk13) regarding "fig tree," it says, "A certain man had a FIG TREE planted *IN* his vineyard"... and Isaiah 5:7 says, "For the vineyard of the LORD of Hosts is the house of Israel...".

So, we notice a couple things: the "fig tree" IS DISTINCT FROM "his vineyard [which is 'the house of Israel']" IN WHICH the "fig tree" was planted. They are not the same thing, not identical entities!


[additionally, I believe ALL of Matthew 24-25 FOLLOWS our Rapture, incl'g Matt24:32 ]

does Jesus mention the rapture in any of the other gospels other than John 14:1-3?

 

[Jackson123]

Yes I do not agree with osas teaching in its absolute form.

But listen to Peter.

10 For if you do these things, you will never fall,
2 Peter

There is a sense in growing into the maturity of Christ we will never fall.
And equally if ones heart is open, and you have been transformed by the Spirit
and walk in obedience to love and the gospel, there is nothing against you.

But even here Paul was never arrogant.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect,
but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do:
Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead
Phil 3

So there is a tension between knowing Gods work in our hearts and also the road
ahead which we are called to follow.

And I do not hold with those who have lost faith are still saved.
Nor do I hold long term there are such things as carnal believers. They are people
who have yet to grasp the nature of love and have a transformed heart, but enjoy
the social aspects of the people of God.

Matt 24 :10

10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

So it is possible to lose the faith/ salvation, but there is away to not lose faith, am I correct?