Calvinism And Predestination
- Thread starter Budman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
U
You say that when I have shown you doing that exact thing! Also, John 6:44 isn't taken out of context. Jesus is talking to people who don't believe him and he is explaining their unbelief to them. It's right there in the context of the passage!!
Also, the explanation Jesus gives makes perfect sense when read all together. He tells us no one can believe unless the Father draws him AND that same person will he raised by Christ on the last day. The same person is in view throughout the whole text. Believers are those that are drawn by the Father, and Christ WILL raise them up on the last day. He was sent so that He would redeem these believers and it is the desire of God that He lose none of them. That's reading the whole passage in context. You should try it sometime
Also, the explanation Jesus gives makes perfect sense when read all together. He tells us no one can believe unless the Father draws him AND that same person will he raised by Christ on the last day. The same person is in view throughout the whole text. Believers are those that are drawn by the Father, and Christ WILL raise them up on the last day. He was sent so that He would redeem these believers and it is the desire of God that He lose none of them. That's reading the whole passage in context. You should try it sometime
This is the typical approach in the Calvinist schema to apply certain verses far beyond the audience they were intended for.
Only replying this once, I have made it a policy to not engage people who ascribe to Calvinism on all five points except for @Grandpa, he is one of the few that is not belligerent when challenged and does not take it personally.
O
This should not be allowed to happen.
Very disturbing...
Very disturbing...
There are several meanings to the word Melach, including a meaning that references to the Demon king Moloch. Let's say this poster was on a Christian site but secretly was a follower of Moloch (using off names would be a perfect way to do it). Should we allow him to manifest on this forum, or rebuke him?
You are disturbing because of your lack of knowledge in how the enemy can work!!
-
1
-
1
- Show all
O
Wow, you do not know who the Enemy is or what it is actually capable of doing. Wolf in Sheep's clothing, seeking to devour, false prophets, etc, etc...
But anyone can take this name and just google it and it goes directly to those professing to be Moloch worshipers.
You really have lived a sheltered life to not know what your enemy is capable of. If I just was saved and looked that name up that goes directly Moloch, Demon king, I would wonder why people calling themselves children of God had no clue they were being deceived...
O
Melach - definition of Melach by The Free Dictionary
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Melach
Definition of Melach. also Mo·lech n. 1. In the Bible, the god of the Canaanites Moloch ...
Melech means salt in Hebrew. The problem is that melech also means king in Hebrew describing Moloch... so which one is which? We don't know, so we just say it's balagan.
Melech (מלך) is a Hebrew word that means king. It may also refer to: Melech (name), a given name of Hebrew origin; the title of "king" in ancient Semitic culture of king Moloch, the demon king of the Canaanites ...
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Melach
Definition of Melach. also Mo·lech n. 1. In the Bible, the god of the Canaanites Moloch ...
Melech means salt in Hebrew. The problem is that melech also means king in Hebrew describing Moloch... so which one is which? We don't know, so we just say it's balagan.
Melech (מלך) is a Hebrew word that means king. It may also refer to: Melech (name), a given name of Hebrew origin; the title of "king" in ancient Semitic culture of king Moloch, the demon king of the Canaanites ...
Even if the member HAD chosen "H4428 - melek 'king'" (which he didn't), why not put the best possible spin on such a choice, such as honoring the Lord in acknowledging the verse about Him, in the following:
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King [H4428 - melek / malkek] comes to you, righteous and victorious, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey." - Zechariah 9:9
...why the most negative spin instead??
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King [H4428 - melek / malkek] comes to you, righteous and victorious, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey." - Zechariah 9:9
...why the most negative spin instead??
O
Because, I wanted to understand the wisdom behind choosing a word that can go to meaning good or to meaning evil. God is not the God of confusion. But if you look up the word melach, and the first hit claims Demon king Moloch, it's confusing as to why a poster on a Christian site would use it. Was there an attempt to be confusing, we cannot assume nor guess at it. And only a few meanings include salt, most go right to king, and then directly to Moloch.
The best example is the book of Romans. Look how Paul opens his treatise. He starts with the gentiles and their sin outside the law, then moves into the Jews who sin in spite of the law. 2 distinct classes of people, yet Paul consistently refers to all men in these passages and then concludes with the universal sinfulness of man. Then he zeroes in on the promise to the Jews in Abraham, also being the father of all the faithful. He comes to a conclusion about the sinfulness of all men and the salvation of the elect but comparing Adam to Christ. This passage teaches the headship of Adam (a class of people) and the specifics of the headship of Christ (another class of people). Paul does this all the time, so does John. In the Jewish mind they were always distinct from gentiles. The class mentality is built into them from their separation from the other nations in the covenant of Abraham. This is common speech for them. This is why these themes appear so often, not only in the way Paul consteucts his arguments but in the phrases that he uses. Look at the way he structures his pastoral Epistles. One part to men, then women, then children, then slaves, and so on and so forth. Prayer for Kings and govenors so that you may have a peacable life. Paul regularly discusses classes of people.
-
1
- Show all
When the Bible says the saints are predestined to salvation it means that God already had the plan to give the world salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world.
Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world, and the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, even though Jesus told the disciples that He goes away to prepare the kingdom.
For God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future, it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Plus God said He wants all people to repent, come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved.
God commands all people to repent.
Also the Spirit and the bride say Come, and anybody that wants that salvation can have it.
And Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world, which means that everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus, and be saved.
Also no person says that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
And no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
And Peter said Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, which Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but the Father.
So anybody that claims those things God is working in their life.
But people that believe OSAS, and those that do not believe OSAS, but a person can fall from grace if they are a hypocrite, and do not abstain from sin by the Spirit, both believe those things, so God has to be working in both their lives.
But according to OSAS God would only work in the lives He chose that do not make a choice in their salvation, for it would not make sense for God to work in the lives He did not choose at the beginning without their choice.
But God is working in the lives of those that do not believe OSAS if they claim those things.
For no person says Jesus is Lord and Savior, but by the Holy Ghost, and many who oppose OSAS believe those things so they could only say that by the Holy Ghost.
Also consider the nature of God that He is love, and not evil.
God's kingdom is love, but if OSAS is true, and nobody has a choice in their salvation for God chose who would be saved, and not saved, then God's kingdom is not true love, but robotic love, because they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.
Only by choice is it true love.
That means their faith is not real, their confession of Christ is not real, their repentance is not real, their hope is not real, for it did not come from them, but from God.
And God is not evil to condemn people that had no choice but to reject the truth, seeing no other alternative.
OSAS goes against the nature of God that He is love, and not evil.
Also God said that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all, and what makes you to differ from another person, and He is no respecter of persons, and there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.
So what basis is God choosing some to be saved, and not saved, without their choice, when God considers all people to be the same.
Also many are called but few are chosen, so if OSAS is true then why is God calling people that cannot be chosen.
Which also testifies that God does the calling and choosing on earth, so we have a choice in our salvation, which is true love, and God is not evil.
Which God chose us we did not choose Him, which when God calls someone according to their heart condition He will work in their lives to get them to the truth, but when they get to the door of truth they have to make the choice to go through the door, for God's kingdom is love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life when He called them, for no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
Which some do not go through the door of truth when they get there, for they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
They confess Christ, but they have not walked through the door of truth, and it points out their sins, for they hold unto sins and think it does not affect their relationship with God.
Which we hear some people say they cannot abstain from sin, but by the Spirit we can, so they obviously do not hate sin like they should, and want to do it, which love is greater than faith, and Paul said love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth.
The Bible says God wants all people to be saved, and many are called but few are chosen, and God is love, and not evil, so it is obvious we have a choice in our salvation.
The truth is if God chose who would be saved, and not saved, in the beginning without their choice, God would of never created the earth, but cut out the middle man.
For if we do not have a choice in our salvation then God would of never created the earth, and created the saints to be with Him right from the start, for the results would be the same for they have no input in their salvation.
And He would of not created the earth with the suffering on it, and would of bypassed that, when being on earth serves no purpose unless there is a choice.
The earth serves no purpose unless we have a choice, for whether God created people directly to be with Him, or put people on earth, the results are the same for they do not choose, for if on earth and they accept the truth it did not come from them but from God.
And how does faith come in to play for those who accept the truth when it did not come from them, but from God for He already chose how they would act, and think, and believe.
If God chooses how they will think, act, and believe, how do they have faith if it does not stem from them, for it would only be God programming them to say they have faith.
For if OSAS is true then they are a robot that is programmed to believe a certain way, and can see no other way.
For nothing came from them, but from God.
Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world, and the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, even though Jesus told the disciples that He goes away to prepare the kingdom.
For God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future, it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Plus God said He wants all people to repent, come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved.
God commands all people to repent.
Also the Spirit and the bride say Come, and anybody that wants that salvation can have it.
And Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world, which means that everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus, and be saved.
Also no person says that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
And no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
And Peter said Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, which Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but the Father.
So anybody that claims those things God is working in their life.
But people that believe OSAS, and those that do not believe OSAS, but a person can fall from grace if they are a hypocrite, and do not abstain from sin by the Spirit, both believe those things, so God has to be working in both their lives.
But according to OSAS God would only work in the lives He chose that do not make a choice in their salvation, for it would not make sense for God to work in the lives He did not choose at the beginning without their choice.
But God is working in the lives of those that do not believe OSAS if they claim those things.
For no person says Jesus is Lord and Savior, but by the Holy Ghost, and many who oppose OSAS believe those things so they could only say that by the Holy Ghost.
Also consider the nature of God that He is love, and not evil.
God's kingdom is love, but if OSAS is true, and nobody has a choice in their salvation for God chose who would be saved, and not saved, then God's kingdom is not true love, but robotic love, because they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.
Only by choice is it true love.
That means their faith is not real, their confession of Christ is not real, their repentance is not real, their hope is not real, for it did not come from them, but from God.
And God is not evil to condemn people that had no choice but to reject the truth, seeing no other alternative.
OSAS goes against the nature of God that He is love, and not evil.
Also God said that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all, and what makes you to differ from another person, and He is no respecter of persons, and there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.
So what basis is God choosing some to be saved, and not saved, without their choice, when God considers all people to be the same.
Also many are called but few are chosen, so if OSAS is true then why is God calling people that cannot be chosen.
Which also testifies that God does the calling and choosing on earth, so we have a choice in our salvation, which is true love, and God is not evil.
Which God chose us we did not choose Him, which when God calls someone according to their heart condition He will work in their lives to get them to the truth, but when they get to the door of truth they have to make the choice to go through the door, for God's kingdom is love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life when He called them, for no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
Which some do not go through the door of truth when they get there, for they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
They confess Christ, but they have not walked through the door of truth, and it points out their sins, for they hold unto sins and think it does not affect their relationship with God.
Which we hear some people say they cannot abstain from sin, but by the Spirit we can, so they obviously do not hate sin like they should, and want to do it, which love is greater than faith, and Paul said love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth.
The Bible says God wants all people to be saved, and many are called but few are chosen, and God is love, and not evil, so it is obvious we have a choice in our salvation.
The truth is if God chose who would be saved, and not saved, in the beginning without their choice, God would of never created the earth, but cut out the middle man.
For if we do not have a choice in our salvation then God would of never created the earth, and created the saints to be with Him right from the start, for the results would be the same for they have no input in their salvation.
And He would of not created the earth with the suffering on it, and would of bypassed that, when being on earth serves no purpose unless there is a choice.
The earth serves no purpose unless we have a choice, for whether God created people directly to be with Him, or put people on earth, the results are the same for they do not choose, for if on earth and they accept the truth it did not come from them but from God.
And how does faith come in to play for those who accept the truth when it did not come from them, but from God for He already chose how they would act, and think, and believe.
If God chooses how they will think, act, and believe, how do they have faith if it does not stem from them, for it would only be God programming them to say they have faith.
For if OSAS is true then they are a robot that is programmed to believe a certain way, and can see no other way.
For nothing came from them, but from God.
◄ 4416. melach ►
It is odd, my friend, trying to read into someones chosen name for a reasonable reason,
something like an association if Molech, the god of the Ammonites when clearly this is not
the intension of the contributor.
What value are you serving? You seem to want to create an issue where there is none.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
maintenance, salt
(Aramaic) from mlach; salt -- + maintenance, salt.
see HEBREW mlach
Forms and Transliterations
וּמְלַ֖ח ומלח מְלַ֣ח ׀ מְלַ֤ח מלח mə·laḥ meLach məlaḥ ū·mə·laḥ umeLach ūməlaḥ
maintenance, salt
(Aramaic) from mlach; salt -- + maintenance, salt.
see HEBREW mlach
Forms and Transliterations
וּמְלַ֖ח ומלח מְלַ֣ח ׀ מְלַ֤ח מלח mə·laḥ meLach məlaḥ ū·mə·laḥ umeLach ūməlaḥ
It is odd, my friend, trying to read into someones chosen name for a reasonable reason,
something like an association if Molech, the god of the Ammonites when clearly this is not
the intension of the contributor.
What value are you serving? You seem to want to create an issue where there is none.
"God is not obligated to call ALL"
28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Matt 11:27
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens
the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just
as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
Rev 3
15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with
their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them
Matt 13
Jesus has called everyone, they are just not listening.
Love shouts to all, in the hope people would listen, hear, and turn.
To those who call, who believe, who walk with Him, He will save them, Amen.
28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Matt 11:27
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens
the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just
as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
Rev 3
15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with
their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them
Matt 13
Jesus has called everyone, they are just not listening.
Love shouts to all, in the hope people would listen, hear, and turn.
To those who call, who believe, who walk with Him, He will save them, Amen.