Does It Ever Bother You That God Loves Everyone? (Please Read Before Voting.)

[seoulsearch]

Hi Everyone,

Something that has been heavy on my heart lately is the fact that God loves absolutely EVERYONE and wants ALL PEOPLE to be saved. Please let me explain before anyone misunderstands...

I work at a local store and one of our customers, a man in his late 40's, is someone who is not known to everyone but served close to a 15-year prison sentence for molesting children. The reason I know is because some of my co-workers have known some of the families of his victims (and there are public records to prove what they've told me--I'm not just buying into idle gossip.)

This man shows no remorse and no intent of stopping. He now lives with family, as he has no place to go, and the only reason he is free is because his last victim's family (he molested yet another child right after getting out of prison) chose not to press charges.

The disturbing thing to me is that my co-workers will call me on our intercom and insist that I wait on him. I'm not sure what they're thinking... perhaps, "Oh sure, the Christian girl can handle this." But they could not be more wrong.

The first time I had to wait on him, I felt physically nauseous.

The second time, I was imaging what it would be like to throw my fist squarely into the middle of his face and hopefully rid the earth of such a vile human being (this is why I've gone to prison to talk to people who are in for murder--by God's definition, I myself am a murderer, just as much as they are.)

The third time, I knew what God was telling me: "Knowing all that you know, choose to forgive him." It was truly a different kind of agony than I've ever felt in my life. And in truth, I'm not sure I've succeeded, because I keep asking God for help.

The last time I had to wait on him, the burning anger and rage wasn't there. But, I did drop my head and felt a terrible sorrow in my heart. "God," I prayed, "Please, PLEASE just don't let him hurt another child."

As Christians, we talk a lot about forgiveness and the fact that God forgives, and loves, EVERYONE. I heard a song on the radio today about how God will be the love that we've never had.

God loves the parent who was always drunk and wasn't there for you.
God loves the husband who left you for someone else with 4 babies to raise alone.
God loves the girlfriend who left you for your best friend.
God loves the person who abused you and didn't care if you lived or died.
God loves the person who hurts everyone around them, including you, and had no intention of stopping.
God loves the parent who chose to ignore what you were trying to tell him or her.

In my quest to find the person God hopefully has for me, I also have to tell God... "Lord, I'm sorry, but one of the reasons I want to find him so badly is because I need to know someone's in MY corner and MY corner alone... Because with you... I know you're in EVERYONE'S corner."

Does anyone else struggle with this?

Or is it simply my own pride, because in the end, as much as we try to deny it, we all, to a point, classify sins as some being worse than others... when in the end, God says all sins are sin in His eyes.

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

 

[NukePooch]

I voted "I try my best to love everyone the way God does, no matter what they've done."

Note, my best still isn't that good, but I'm working on it. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. Yeah, it stinks to have to deal with someone who is completely unrepentant in their sin, especially when it hurts others...but, it is the fallen world we live in.
We have people who starve to death, I went to Quizno's. We have people who are abused and tortured, I play video games in comfort. There are people who will turn their back on God no matter how big the love He shows for them...it's just a fact. All have sinned and fallen short, we're all hopeless.

If people knew the things I've done and thought about doing, I'm sure I'd make others nauseous. If I knew the things that others have done, I'd be sick...yet, even while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. God knows all of those horrid, horrible things that we ourselves wouldn't dare to admit...yet He loves us more than we could ever imagine.

I could turn my back on the things I have done, said, and thought, and live how I want, when I want, and God wouldn't stop me. I can murder, rape, and destroy, and He probably wouldn't stop me. I can ruin lives for generations, I can abuse and torture, it's all my choice...and God would still love me. Right up until He sends me to eternal damnation in the fires of Hell, He will love me...and probably forever more, I might not ever know.

Yes, that guy hurts children in unspeakable ways, yet he himself still is a child of the Almighty God, whether he accepts it or not.

 

[stop-n-slow]

I think that as a christian we are to hate the sin but love the sinner. I know that there are times I find this really hard to do and the only way I can do this is with God's help. I have to turn it over to Him and He gives me the forgiveness to forgive and love my brother or sister

 

[seoulsearch]

I appreciate your thoughts, Stop-n-Slow, and what I am about to write has nothing to do with you personally. I admire you for being a person of forgiveness.

And Nuke, you know I always appreciate your thoughts and insights.

I have a very close friend who is serving a very long prison sentence for murder.

Because I grew up in church, and because I went to Christian schools, I am always interested in what Christians do vs. what Christians say. And that includes myself as well, which is why I write about these kinds of thoughts. Obviously, I need a lot of work and help from the Lord.

My friend has a very long time before he'll ever see the outside again, and I met him while he has been serving his sentence. I have not known him while he was in the regular free world.

But when he does eventually re-enter society, he and I both wonder how people will react to him. He was raised a Christian and says that prison saved him from his own death out on the streets. Like so many, he was without a father and so many other influences move in when the wrong role models prey on vulnerable kids. I know many people talk about forgiveness, etc. and that's wonderful. They are better people than I am, that's for sure.

But when the time comes that my friend does indeed get out, how will the church react to him when he tries to attend and they find out about his past? Many churches won't stand for someone to have a tattoo, let alone a past prison conviction for murder. Will he be driven from the church? Will people stop speaking to me when they learn he is my friend? Or will they tell me all about love and forgiveness and how much they practice it... If they tell me all about loving other people as God loves us, I'll be happy to tell them, "That's wonderful, and I see you're holding a luncheon at your house next Sunday for Bible study. We'll be there right on time, I promise."

What will they do then? Very quickly move to another neighborhood before my friend can arrive? (No, he and I are not a couple and will not be--he is simply one of my very closest friends.) Will it be that suddenly, everyone is invited... EXCEPT for him and I? Or will they truly live out what they state to believe in and welcome his presence, as well as mine, with open arms? Someday, I'll get to see for myself...

What people say vs. what people actually do.

As much as we all hate to admit it, it's often night and day.

 

[NukePooch]

Absolutely it's night and day, but you're also talking about those multitudes who SAY they're Christians, versus the few who actually ARE Christian. It's apples and oranges. Yes, he (and you) will absolutely encounter all sorts of door slamming in his face, from people who don't know the first thing about what they are supposed to live by. I absolutely guarantee that he will not be accepted in a lot of churches, and those that do allow him in will have many members gossiping behind his back (possibly to his face)...

When I was in college, I took a few religion classes. There was 30 or so "Christians", one Bahai, and one atheist. No one wanted to get in discussions with Mr Atheist because he was an argumentative loud biker-type...and he ruffled a lot of carefully constructed holier-than-thou attitudes in class. I got along with him famously. Why? He was one of the few in the class who was real and honest. We talked a LOT outside of class about our church experiences...he actually had churches that attempted to physically remove him from the pew... and yes, we talked motorcycles.

I've had people in churches give me no end of grief because I have a beard, or I wear jeans on occasion, or I shave my head, or chew my fingernails, or don't wear a suit, etc. People look at the sanitized portraits of Jesus and just don't get it. He was a blue-collar country boy from a backwater burg. He hung out with fishermen. He was a redneck! One of my favorite song lines is from My Jesus, by Todd Agnew...

"
Pretty blue eyes and curly brown hair and a clear complexion
Is how you see Him as He dies for Your sins
But the Word says He was battered and scarred
Or did you miss that part
Sometimes I doubt we'd recognize Him

Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and the least of these
He loved the poor and accosted the comfortable
So which one do you want to be?

Cause my Jesus would never be accepted in my church
The blood and dirt on His feet would stain the carpet
But He reaches for the hurting and despised the proud
I think He'd prefer Beale St. to the stained glass crowd..."

Your friend will be shunned and gossiped about...it comes from having sins out in the open rather than having them hidden in the closet like the rest of the church. People will get very upset about the speck in his (and your) eyes...but at least he can be real. And those of us who are real, and know that we're all a mess, will come over to him and shake his hand, cause we get it.
In my last church, a guy (and his wife) started showing up and caused a commotion. He's a former drug abuser who's gotta be close to seven feet tall, with a blue mohawk and piercings out the yazoo. The majority of the church was anti-him, but I was thinking, wow..we gotta get this guy plugged in with the youth. A year goes by, he's a member, and he's volunteering wherever he can including with the marriage ministry (drugs nearly destroyed his marriage).

 

[seoulsearch]

That's an awesome, wonderful story, Nuke. Like you, I go for people who can be REAL, and many times, those are the people who appear to be a little "different"-- but I'm drawn to those who can honestly express their own struggles... the hurts, the fears, the failures... I accept that EVERYONE makes mistakes--me more than a lot of people! What I hate is when people take out a spiritual sponge and try to wipe it all away, like it's not happening, or they're walking in faith, or they're not angry, or they're not asking questions-- when inside, they are falling apart. Most Christians I've asked say they NEVER take those kinds of feelings to God--but if you watch them, you can see that they just take them all out on other people.

Do you want to know a secret?

One of the things I fear most... is that when he gets out, and you're absolutely right--the opposition to be faced is probably more than I can imagination.

So, when I'm 100% honest with MYSELF, my deepest fear is... because I'm the type of person who's known as the "goody two-shoes"--never did drugs, never took a drag from a cigarette, can't drink because of allergies... Will I start to experience people's hatred...

And run like a huge coward, denying that this person is my friend? Am I going to be like one of the disciples in the garden and try to preserve my own well-being and reputation by abandoning someone whom I consider one of my best friends?

It's like we're saying... What the raised-to-be-a-good-Christian-girl does... vs. What she tries to say. Someday, I'll find out. And I know God will be waiting for me at the finish line! I hope He gives me the strength to be able to do the right thing.

 

[NukePooch]

This is of a similar mindset that's stuck with me lately...it might help.

http://christianchat.com/christian-singles-forum/20200-would-you-could-you.html

 

[NukePooch]

So, when I'm 100% honest with MYSELF, my deepest fear is... because I'm the type of person who's known as the "goody two-shoes"--never did drugs, never took a drag from a cigarette, can't drink because of allergies... Will I start to experience people's hatred...

And run like a huge coward, denying that this person is my friend? Am I going to be like one of the disciples in the garden and try to preserve my own well-being and reputation by abandoning someone whom I consider one of my best friends?

It's like we're saying... What the raised-to-be-a-good-Christian-girl does... vs. What she tries to say. Someday, I'll find out. And I know God will be waiting for me at the finish line! I hope He gives me the strength to be able to do the right thing.

If people give you grief over befriending an ex-murder, ex-con, ex-whatever, then it's the Pharisees redux. No one wants their reputation tarnished, but if you're trying to look good to the Pharisees, you're missing the point. People are probably gonna give you grief, and you're probably going to hear rumors that you're sleeping together, etc. So be it. I've got relatives that will cheat, lie, and steal to other family, but to the public they're fine, upstanding citizens. It's the Eddie Haskell syndrome. Eddie was sweet as pie on the surface "That's a nice dress, Mrs. Cleaver..." , but was always trying to get by with something...

 

[seoulsearch]

This is of a similar mindset that's stuck with me lately...it might help.

http://christianchat.com/christian-singles-forum/20200-would-you-could-you.html

My friend and I actually talk about this subject all the time:

"Could you die for what you believe in?" He already knows he could because he almost did.

I have yet to be able to answer the question. And, I did read your, "Would you, could you?" thread... actually... about 4 hours ago. I couldn't answer.

Why?

Because I KNOW I couldn't.

 

[NukePooch]

My friend and I actually talk about this subject all the time:

"Could you die for what you believe in?" He already knows he could because he almost did.

I have yet to be able to answer the question. And, I did read your, "Would you, could you?" thread... actually... about 4 hours ago. I couldn't answer.

Why?

Because I KNOW I couldn't.

Well, sometimes it takes being faced with something before you'll stand up for something.

 

[Lalilo]

I am working on loving the people that try to hurt me. I no longer get angry with them. " Life is a journey, the direction we take is our own choice".

 

[zeroturbulence]

Moses was a murderer. King David was an adulterer. Rahab was a prostitute and is in Jesus' bloodline. Saul (Paul) killed and tortured Christians. God loved them despite all that they did. Each one had their own reasons for doing what they knew was wrong. God knows those reasons, we don't. That is why we are not to judge. That is God's job, not ours.

We are like little children who fight and get hurt and angry and offended and even killed by our brothers and sisters, but our Father in heaven still sees each one of us as his own child. I'm sure it hurts him to send the 'bad kids' to eternal damnation just as it would deeply hurt any parent to turn their son or daughter over to the police for a heinous crime that they knew they had committed.

 

[Jullianna]

I've been avoiding posting here. Brings up too many old memories. Wasn't going to, but feel the Lord is prompting me to do so.

I've had to arrest murders, child molesters, etc. I've had to question small children and look thru the "photo collections" of pedophiles for evidence (You do learn not to eat before you have to do that). I've had to sit and listen to people make excuses for their children's horrible injuries, knowing full well that they are lying to my face. I've had to listen to armed robbers (who've shot at me and my fellow officers while trying to apprehend them) tell me that they are satanists because they want their goodies now rather than later. I've had to tell parents some evil thing that's happened to their child and then hold them until they are able to stand on their own. I've had to sit with small children who have been sexually violated for extended periods...trying to talk them into allowing EMS personnel to transport them to the hospital (The medics can't touch them at all sometimes without eliciting screams, especially if they are men). It's BEYOND tough. I'd like to say that you become immune to it or that it gets easier at some point, but that would be a total lie. I wouldn't want to become the monster that would make me anyway.

The things that always get me through such situations are these:

1. God has it all under control. It may SEEM like people are getting away with things. They aren't. Even if they slip through the cracks here. Even if the courts let them go or let them out early.
2. I'm not their judge, He is.
3. He loves ME and, as Nuke said, I've done things I don't want anyone to know about and I certainly don't want anyone to know the thoughts that have gone through my mind while I was talking with some of the folks mentioned above.
4. I have hope that until they draw their last breath, there is a possibility that they will turn to the Lord and be used by Him in mighty ways. I've seen it happen. The testimonies people like this have are tremendous and SO effective in leading others to Christ (Remember Paul killing christians? Remember King David plotting the death of Uriah the Hittite?)

 

[DanuckInUSA]

God is a loving and just God and if His love wasnt for all that truly would be unjust.

 

[seoulsearch]

I do appreciate everyone's willingness to have an open heart. Jullianna, I can't even imagine trying to do what you've done for work--I just admire you all the more, because I would have cracked at the first case, I'm pretty sure.

Listening to you all gives me hope that when my friend is released... maybe, people will open their hearts to his story too.

And maybe God can still work with me to sort out my own obvious flawed thinking. I never hide what I feel or think from God... I guess it just takes longer than I'd like to work it out.

 

[Jullianna]

As it does with us all Wish we could get it the first time, but we rarely do. He loves us anyway!

 

[NukePooch]

That's an awesome, wonderful story, Nuke. Like you, I go for people who can be REAL, and many times, those are the people who appear to be a little "different"-- but I'm drawn to those who can honestly express their own struggles... the hurts, the fears, the failures... I accept that EVERYONE makes mistakes--me more than a lot of people! What I hate is when people take out a spiritual sponge and try to wipe it all away, like it's not happening, or they're walking in faith, or they're not angry, or they're not asking questions-- when inside, they are falling apart. Most Christians I've asked say they NEVER take those kinds of feelings to God--but if you watch them, you can see that they just take them all out on other people.

Do you want to know a secret?

One of the things I fear most... is that when he gets out, and you're absolutely right--the opposition to be faced is probably more than I can imagination.

So, when I'm 100% honest with MYSELF, my deepest fear is... because I'm the type of person who's known as the "goody two-shoes"--never did drugs, never took a drag from a cigarette, can't drink because of allergies... Will I start to experience people's hatred...

And run like a huge coward, denying that this person is my friend? Am I going to be like one of the disciples in the garden and try to preserve my own well-being and reputation by abandoning someone whom I consider one of my best friends?

It's like we're saying... What the raised-to-be-a-good-Christian-girl does... vs. What she tries to say. Someday, I'll find out. And I know God will be waiting for me at the finish line! I hope He gives me the strength to be able to do the right thing.

I just read this this morning...about how Paul had to get on Peter's case for turning on the Gentiles due to peer pressure...seems to fit the topic. If Peter can get caught up in this kind of thinking, anyone can...

Galatians 2: (The Message summarizes it well)
11-13Later, when Peter came to Antioch, I had a face-to-face confrontation with him because he was clearly out of line. Here's the situation. Earlier, before certain persons had come from James, Peter regularly ate with the non-Jews. But when that conservative group came from Jerusalem, he cautiously pulled back and put as much distance as he could manage between himself and his non-Jewish friends. That's how fearful he was of the conservative Jewish clique that's been pushing the old system of circumcision. Unfortunately, the rest of the Jews in the Antioch church joined in that hypocrisy so that even Barnabas was swept along in the charade.
14But when I saw that they were not maintaining a steady, straight course according to the Message, I spoke up to Peter in front of them all: "If you, a Jew, live like a non-Jew when you're not being observed by the watchdogs from Jerusalem, what right do you have to require non-Jews to conform to Jewish customs just to make a favorable impression on your old Jerusalem cronies?"
15-16We Jews know that we have no advantage of birth over "non-Jewish sinners." We know very well that we are not set right with God by rule-keeping but only through personal faith in Jesus Christ. How do we know? We tried it—and we had the best system of rules the world has ever seen! Convinced that no human being can please God by self-improvement, we believed in Jesus as the Messiah so that we might be set right before God by trusting in the Messiah, not by trying to be good.
17-18Have some of you noticed that we are not yet perfect? (No great surprise, right?) And are you ready to make the accusation that since people like me, who go through Christ in order to get things right with God, aren't perfectly virtuous, Christ must therefore be an accessory to sin? The accusation is frivolous. If I was "trying to be good," I would be rebuilding the same old barn that I tore down. I would be acting as a charlatan.
19-21What actually took place is this: I tried keeping rules and working my head off to please God, and it didn't work. So I quit being a "law man" so that I could be God's man. Christ's life showed me how, and enabled me to do it. I identified myself completely with him. Indeed, I have been crucified with Christ. My ego is no longer central. It is no longer important that I appear righteous before you or have your good opinion, and I am no longer driven to impress God. Christ lives in me. The life you see me living is not "mine," but it is lived by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not going to go back on that.

 

[seoulsearch]

Thank you for reminding me of this section of Scripture, Nuke--I am VERY much like Peter and have been all my life--one minute I've got my foot out, ready to jump onto the water, and the next minute I'm crying because I find myself getting all wet once I actually jump in!

I'm sure I could never outdo Peter, but I do often pray that I can learn from his experiences.

 

[NukePooch]

Thank you for reminding me of this section of Scripture, Nuke--I am VERY much like Peter and have been all my life--one minute I've got my foot out, ready to jump onto the water, and the next minute I'm crying because I find myself getting all wet once I actually jump in!

I'm sure I could never outdo Peter, but I do often pray that I can learn from his experiences.

A lot of us are like Peter. I've done more than my share of about-faces.

A lot of the reaction you'll get stems from the shepherd of the church...if pastor is accepting of anyone, regardless of body odor, background, punk hairdos, kill-your-mother-t-shirts, piercings, tattoos, whatever, then it probably is a decent church...but if pastor trains the sheep to only accept people who conform to the church norm, then there might be a problem. Note: I'm not talking about people who are consistently disruptive, argumentative, rebellious...I'm talking about those who start that way.
It seemed like Peter was doing okay, then he was getting pressure from wherever, so he wavered. A lot of the average joes are gonna be that way...if the church leadership is accepting, then they probably will be too.

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

Yes it does bother me.