Are these beliefs sufficient for salvation?

[stonesoffire]

Positionally, all mankind is saved. Jesus died for all the world. But, salvation is a personal one on one relationship that needs received to benefit us.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from the Law as follows: "The person who obeys these things will find life by them."


6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will go up to heaven?' (that is, to bring the Messiah down),


7 or 'Who will go down into the depths?' (that is, to bring the Messiah back from the dead)."


8 But what does it say? "The message is near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart." This is the message about faith that we are proclaiming:

9 If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


10 For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.


11 The Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will never be ashamed."


12 There is no difference between Jew and Greek, because they all have the same Lord, who gives richly to all who call on him.


13 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

[Adstar]

When you stated that Paul: "He was still a sinner as we all are.

If you believe in the Spirit, Soul and Body, you will not say that Christians ARE still sinners.

We WERE sinners, but now, our Spirit is as righteous as Jesus himself because he is our righteousness.

Whilst we are righteous in spirit being deemed righteous because we are covered by the blood of Jesus.. We still sin in the flesh and until we are liberated from our flesh bodies by physical death or the transformation at the return of Jesus, whichever comes first,, we will continue to sin..

Anyone who says that have no sin is deceived and does not have the truth..

1 John 1: KJV
8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

 

[tourist]

Actually, if you understand Romans 5:12-19, it is not our individual sins that separated us from God, its the sin of Adam's disobedience.

Of course, at the point of conversion it does not matter, but it will stunt your Christian renewal of mind if you then try to "maintain salvation" by your own actions.

Regardless, I don't see how you can receive salvation if you are not sorry at all for the sins you have committed, the sins that Jesus died on the cross for, and receive the Holy Spirit to live inside of you, comfort and guide you in the repentance process. I don't believe at all the salvation must be maintained by good works of any sort, or that your salvation is in peril if you occasionally stumble and commit a sin because Jesus died for all of your sins, past, present and future.

 

[TLC209]

Oh in that case your answer is misleading. When I ask "So your belief is that no one can be sure of their salvation while they are living on this earth?"

You should not have replied with



Ordinary readers who cannot read your mind will interpret as what I did. You are saying that you are sure because of your faith.

So I conclude that your answer instead is the following

Yes, no one can be sure of their salvation while they are living on this earth. I myself am not even sure my faith will withstand until I pass away, what's more others.

Is that what you really meant?

No that isnt what i meant. I told you my faith assures me that. Faith that can withstand in the present tense allows me the security to trust in its perserverence in the future. Paul teaches about it.

Chill, I am saying John is not writing to believers in his first chapter of his epistle. He is writing to Gnostic.

As for your quote from Hebrews, the context is those Jewish believers who continue to go back to lamb sacrifice, even after they received the truth that Jesus is the final sacrifice. That is the sin that it was referring to.

You must learn to agree to disagree, as well as to respect other people's beliefs, as I do with yours.

This is called hermenutics. Im against logically/carnaly thinking about Spiritual meat. My conclusion is you are lost bro. Its not a matter of agree to disagree when your salvation is the consequence. But im gonna let you keep your belief.

 

[know1]

No that isnt what i meant. I told you my faith assures me that. Faith that can withstand in the present tense allows me the security to trust in its perserverence in the future. Paul teaches about it.

This is called hermenutics. Im against logically/carnaly thinking about Spiritual meat. My conclusion is you are lost bro. Its not a matter of agree to disagree when your salvation is the consequence. But im gonna let you keep your belief.

Question.
No offense intended, but if he's lost and you call him bro, short for brother, what does that make you?
I too question many people's salvation here on CC, because they failed to see some of the simplest of doctrines, such as WOF.
And I believe this in part because of what Jesus said about the Pharisees.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If they were of God, they would hear and believe His word, instead of trying to MAKE the bible say what their pet doctrines are or what "reality" dictates.

 

[know1]

Regardless, I don't see how you can receive salvation if you are not sorry at all for the sins you have committed, the sins that Jesus died on the cross for, and receive the Holy Spirit to live inside of you, comfort and guide you in the repentance process. I don't believe at all the salvation must be maintained by good works of any sort, or that your salvation is in peril if you occasionally stumble and commit a sin because Jesus died for all of your sins, past, present and future.

Salvation does not take place because of anyone's repentance of sin, but because of their repentance of doubting the word of God, by believing the gospel, and acting on that belief to receive Jesus/the truth, personally,

 

[oyster67]

That Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins, that Jesus rose again on the third day, and that Jesus is Lord of all creation?

If you let Him in and allow this Lordship to apply to yourself, then yes.

 

[tourist]

Salvation does not take place because of anyone's repentance of sin, but because of their repentance of doubting the word of God, by believing the gospel, and acting on that belief to receive Jesus/the truth, personally,

Kind of hard to follow your logic. I am not aware of any scripture that states that you receive salvation by repenting of doubting the word of God. Of course, you have to ask for forgiveness and repent of sin. It is the Holy Spirit working inside that assists in this process, without whose aid it would be impossible to repent and go through the process. This is really basic and not that complicated to understand.

 

[TLC209]

Question.
No offense intended, but if he's lost and you call him bro, short for brother, what does that make you?
I too question many people's salvation here on CC, because they failed to see some of the simplest of doctrines, such as WOF.
And I believe this in part because of what Jesus said about the Pharisees.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If they were of God, they would hear and believe His word, instead of trying to MAKE the bible say what their pet doctrines are or what "reality" dictates.

I know. Its a habit. Thats how i speak. But ur right. I was thinking the same thing after I posted that. He cant be considered a brother. And Im not trying to be rude or make it seem like im better than anyone. But the fellowship is between brothers. Those who follow Christ and are a part of the flock.

I want to see him as a brother thats why I tried to explain to him using scripture but hes stuck in his own way. And Proverbs 1 talks about the consequences of our own way. I dont want to give up on him because he seems like he has good intentions. Just needs some guidance. But I guess its on God to work on him. I trust God wont stop working on his heart. Dont you agree?

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Alot of these men are imposters. Didnt enter through Jesus. But rather some other way, of their own, claiming to be Christians. I just see them as reprobates and false sheep. Wolves in sheeps clothing. Some just dont know it. Others are decievers. Only God knows their hearts. God bless you.

 

[Deade]

Whilst we are righteous in spirit being deemed righteous because we are covered by the blood of Jesus.. We still sin in the flesh and until we are liberated from our flesh bodies by physical death or the transformation at the return of Jesus, whichever comes first,, we will continue to sin..

Anyone who says that have no sin is deceived and does not have the truth..

1 John 1: KJV
8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Amen Adstar, we must realize we are calling the future when we say we are saved. We also know we will sin but our sins are covered by Christ's blood.

Some believe that Satan’s main job is to accuse man before God. This is based on the following scripture:

“And the Lord said unto Satan, hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.” (Job 1:8-10).

Satan did accuse Job, but only after God asked his opinion.

How does Satan accuse us?

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.” (Rev. 12:10).

Does God really take accusations against us on a daily basis, or is this just a general statement?

Consider: Isaiah 43:25.

“I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.”

If God will not remember our sins, then Satan tries to put a guilt trip on us. It paralyzes our Christian walk (our faith) and hinders us from our true potential.

Also consider: Isaiah 43:26.

“Put me in remembrance: Let us plead together: Declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.”

“Declare thou” or speak out (margin)—this is part of resisting the devil.

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” (James 4:7).

We need to openly and audibly speak our deliverance into reality.

Read again Revelation 12:10 above, and then Revelation 12:11.

“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

We need to overcome Satan and his works, just like our Lord Jesus did.

Let’s now go back to Calvary.

“When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, ‘it is finished:’ And He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.” (John 19:30).

It is finished? What is finished? “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: But be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33).

Jesus has overcome the world. His work on the part of the redeemed is done, but we have to do our part and speak our deliverance. In so doing, we will overcome also.

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened [Gr. made alive] together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” (Col. 2:13–15).

Being delivered from our trespasses, let us walk accordingly. If we are of the redeemed, then we have this deliverance. Are you walking in the flesh or in the spirit?

“For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: Yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” (Rom. 5:7–9).

We had our sins paid for while we were yet doing them. We are now redeemed, so we need to act accordingly.

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: But be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Rom. 12:1–2).

Make yourself a living sacrifice, and start seeking this kind of deliverance from God.

You might need God’s help with this. “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” (Matt. 7:7, 8).

Just ask God for what you want.

 

[Guojing]

No that isnt what i meant. I told you my faith assures me that. Faith that can withstand in the present tense allows me the security to trust in its perserverence in the future. Paul teaches about it.

I guess we have different definitions of the word "sure" then. To me if you are sure, means you are 100% present and future.

For you, when you say you are "sure" it can mean you are sure now, but you cannot be sure in the future.

Okay, we have different meanings of the word "sure".

 

[Guojing]

Regardless, I don't see how you can receive salvation if you are not sorry at all for the sins you have committed, the sins that Jesus died on the cross for, and receive the Holy Spirit to live inside of you, comfort and guide you in the repentance process. I don't believe at all the salvation must be maintained by good works of any sort, or that your salvation is in peril if you occasionally stumble and commit a sin because Jesus died for all of your sins, past, present and future.

Let's read how the Apostle Paul appeals to the lost here in the ministry of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5 KJV

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Do you think Paul is urging his listeners here to be "sorry for the sins you have committed"? He almost never ask people to repent of their sins in the Gospel of Grace.

He states simply, God is no longer imputing your sins unto you because Jesus has taken away those sins. Paul is urging us to believe in that truth.

 

[Guojing]

Question.
No offense intended, but if he's lost and you call him bro, short for brother, what does that make you?
I too question many people's salvation here on CC, because they failed to see some of the simplest of doctrines, such as WOF.
And I believe this in part because of what Jesus said about the Pharisees.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If they were of God, they would hear and believe His word, instead of trying to MAKE the bible say what their pet doctrines are or what "reality" dictates.

People make salvation so complicated by mixing in Paul's letters with what Jesus said under the dispensation of Law, and then throw in James and John for good measure.

Salvation under the Gospel of Grace is given to the Apostle Paul, and is actually very simple to understand.

 

[Guojing]

Whilst we are righteous in spirit being deemed righteous because we are covered by the blood of Jesus.. We still sin in the flesh and until we are liberated from our flesh bodies by physical death or the transformation at the return of Jesus, whichever comes first,, we will continue to sin..

Anyone who says that have no sin is deceived and does not have the truth..

1 John 1: KJV
8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Do you believe that God sees us in our spirit? He can of course see us in the flesh too but in his wisdom, he relates to our Spirit by his Spirit.

Thus, do you think God sees your sins after you are covered with Jesus's robe of righteousness?

Once you comprehend this, the power of sin is broken in you.

 

[TLC209]

I guess we have different definitions of the word "sure" then. To me if you are sure, means you are 100% present and future.

For you, when you say you are "sure" it can mean you are sure now, but you cannot be sure in the future.

Okay, we have different meanings of the word "sure".

Have you ever been "sure" of anything?

Only to have things change all of a sudden?

Are you "sure" you will be alive tomorrow?

Could things change?

Many are the plans of men but only the plans of God will prevail.

So to sum it up I am "sure" of my faith. But things are ALWAYS subject to change.

But WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

My faith is in God.

 

[know1]

Kind of hard to follow your logic. I am not aware of any scripture that states that you receive salvation by repenting of doubting the word of God. Of course, you have to ask for forgiveness and repent of sin. It is the Holy Spirit working inside that assists in this process, without whose aid it would be impossible to repent and go through the process. This is really basic and not that complicated to understand.

I'm going to guess by saying, you've been taught that doctrine by your church and/or pastor, right?
Yes, it is simple and easy to understand, unfortunately it's not scripturally accurate or biblically true.
I'm sure, like you, this doctrine was hammered into my thinking for years, until I sought God on it.
One of the scriptures that comes to mind which many believe proves we need to repent of our sins first, in order for us to be born again would be in Mar 1:15.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Because we have associated repentance to sin so much and for so long, anytime it's mentioned, we automatically think it's saying to turn from our sins. But that's not what the above verse is talking about.
If you look at what we are to repent of at the end of that verse, you should be able to see, it's not saying of sin, but of doubting the gospel.
It's only assumed the verse is talking about past sins, but doubting the gospel is a sin too.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

When does the Holy Spirit enter a person? Isn't it after one is born again?
To put it bluntly, it's NOT the unbeliever who needs to repent of their sins, but THE BELIEVERS.
Repentance is for the believers, NOT the sinners.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That was written to the believers.

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

The sin the Comforter will convict/convince/reprove the world of is doubting the word of God, the gospel, the truth, the light and the like, for they are all descriptions of Jesus.
If you believe the word of God, you believe on Him.
If you believe the gospel, you again, believe on Jesus.
If you believe the truth or light, you believe on Him.
You say you are not aware of scripture that states what I have been saying?
Here are a few of them.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

No repentance of sin mentioned as being necessary to eat and drink Jesus' flesh and blood respectively.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Do you see the word "repent" of one's sins anywhere in the above verses.
Do you think they forgot to write it in there?
Do you think they missed the "whole council of God"?
Keep in mind, if you have to add to those verses to make it the "whole council of God", then you just proved the verse to be a partial truth, which amounts to a lie and a deception.
If you have to add the word repent, to every verse, then you just rendered them useless, through omission of the rest of the truth.
There are many many more verses in the bible teaching the same.
Once a person is born again, then the Spirit will convict them of things they were doing that was offensive to God.
For example, long after I received Jesus as my savior, I started saying "Good God!" to some things, thinking it was okay to say.
But one day, after I said that, I heard a voice, not audible, tell me I was using the lord's name in vain.
It took me two months of hearing that before I could see it and stop saying that phrase.
I didn't know it was a sin UNTIL God told me it was a sin. I no longer say that anymore, because I repented of it, and God has since cleansed me of that sin.
Again, we are NOT automatically forgiven and washed in the blood of Jesus of past, present, and future sins. We are commanded to repent and confess, [confessing our sin is the act of one repenting of the same] and THEN the blood of Jesus will cleanse us anew, and we will then be forgiven of those sins.

 

[know1]

I know. Its a habit. Thats how i speak. But ur right. I was thinking the same thing after I posted that. He cant be considered a brother. And Im not trying to be rude or make it seem like im better than anyone. But the fellowship is between brothers. Those who follow Christ and are a part of the flock.

I want to see him as a brother thats why I tried to explain to him using scripture but hes stuck in his own way. And Proverbs 1 talks about the consequences of our own way. I dont want to give up on him because he seems like he has good intentions. Just needs some guidance. But I guess its on God to work on him. I trust God wont stop working on his heart. Dont you agree?

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Alot of these men are imposters. Didnt enter through Jesus. But rather some other way, of their own, claiming to be Christians. I just see them as reprobates and false sheep. Wolves in sheeps clothing. Some just dont know it. Others are decievers. Only God knows their hearts. God bless you.

I enjoyed your post sir. You made me chuckle a bit.
And I have been saying the same as you for quite some time now, only, I don't tell them they are not saved, I say, "I question your salvation."

 

[know1]

People make salvation so complicated by mixing in Paul's letters with what Jesus said under the dispensation of Law, and then throw in James and John for good measure.

Salvation under the Gospel of Grace is given to the Apostle Paul, and is actually very simple to understand.

I agree sir. If most would just believe what is written and stop adding to the verses various parts of the bible, it is very simple and easy to both see and understand.

 

[Guojing]

Have you ever been "sure" of anything?

Only to have things change all of a sudden?

Are you "sure" you will be alive tomorrow?

Could things change?

Many are the plans of men but only the plans of God will prevail.

So to sum it up I am "sure" of my faith. But things are ALWAYS subject to change.

But WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

My faith is in God.

Assurance of salvation is one of the fundamental aspect of Christianity.

As Romans 5:12-19 clearly explains, you can be assured of salvation because salvation is a gift, its not something that depends on what you do. You merely stretch out your hand and take the gift offered by Christ Jesus.

And this gift is "undroppable" by your own actions, even more than the first Adam's free gift of a sinful nature that you received before you were saved.

But of course, if you think that not being sure of your salvation is "good" because it prevents you from being complacent, I think a number of pastor preach this in their churches, that is a choice you make, and I respect that choice of yours.

 

[Guojing]

I agree sir. If most would just believe what is written and stop adding to the verses various parts of the bible, it is very simple and easy to both see and understand.

Well, you can think of it this way. The Law was never given to the Gentiles, only the Jews.

Jesus first coming was for the Jews, and he was there to fulfill the law so he has to preach obedience to the Law. Matthew 5:19

The Gentiles were only included in the covenant after the Jews rejected Jesus for the final time in Acts (Romans 11:11)

Yet, what do some Gentiles do here? They want to go back to the Law after they are saved by Grace.