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Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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But I am glad that you know that I don't believe in earning, working for, or retaining my salvation. Because I truly and genuinely DON't
I will bow out now. I know DC is going to say that Argueless did accuse him of lying to the Holy Spirit, but the post that he referred to as evidence shows no such thing. Let everyone with an open mind read it and decide for themselves.
I will bow out now. I know DC is going to say that Argueless did accuse him of lying to the Holy Spirit, but the post that he referred to as evidence shows no such thing. Let everyone with an open mind read it and decide for themselves.
But why???
This is what I cannot wrap my head around ....who wants to be unsure?
How can anyone serve God freely unless we know that we are not earning or able to loose our salvation?
I will admit I tire of this same ol'nonsense
The question itself is an insult to Christ Jesus
This is what I cannot wrap my head around ....who wants to be unsure?
How can anyone serve God freely unless we know that we are not earning or able to loose our salvation?
I will admit I tire of this same ol'nonsense
The question itself is an insult to Christ Jesus
Why?
I have noticed a big difference between those who were real wrecks in life, and Jesus brought them
back and those who have been in church their whole lives.
And those who are so churched seem to feel believing like all compromised people is what Jesus
wanted from us. Jesus said we would recognise His people through the love they share one with
another. And of course He was right, faith leading to a righteous heart, leading to righteous behaviour
and the people show the light that is in their hearts. Where God dwells darkness goes away.
You are too dense to actually pull up the right post.....your deception really speaks volumes pal
and maybe you should quit flapping and read exactly what he said.....[/QUOTE]
Here you go
I only need to read two posts. The one that you said you reported for accusing you of lying to the Holy Spirit and the post you claimed had the accusation on it. Anyone with an adequate reading comprehension can see he is referring to your stance on it, not accusing you of doing it. And if you go back far enough, you will find that this is in response to what you said about Ananais and Saphira, you know, the ones who actually did lie to the Holy Spirit
Commenting on someone's stance on something is not the same of accusing them of doing it. This is where all the misunderstandings come from, because of you and others carelessly reading other people's words. I hope you don't read the Bible as carelessly as you read these posts.
here is the post you were replying to that you said you reported. Where did he accuse you of lying to the Holy Spirit
[QUOTE
][/QUOTE]
and maybe you should quit flapping and read exactly what he said.....[/QUOTE]
Here you go
I only need to read two posts. The one that you said you reported for accusing you of lying to the Holy Spirit and the post you claimed had the accusation on it. Anyone with an adequate reading comprehension can see he is referring to your stance on it, not accusing you of doing it. And if you go back far enough, you will find that this is in response to what you said about Ananais and Saphira, you know, the ones who actually did lie to the Holy Spirit
Commenting on someone's stance on something is not the same of accusing them of doing it. This is where all the misunderstandings come from, because of you and others carelessly reading other people's words. I hope you don't read the Bible as carelessly as you read these posts.
here is the post you were replying to that you said you reported. Where did he accuse you of lying to the Holy Spirit
[QUOTE
][/QUOTE]
I did. He commented on your stance regarding "lying to the Holy Spirit" in regards to your answer to his question about Ananais and Saphira. No accusation of YOU lying to the Holy Spirit.
SO it is you who needs to go read what the post actually said and admit you were wrong. But I doubt you will, because you don't have the humility to do so.
SO it is you who needs to go read what the post actually said and admit you were wrong. But I doubt you will, because you don't have the humility to do so.
I only need to read two posts. The one that you said you reported for accusing you of lying to the Holy Spirit and the post you claimed had the accusation on it. Anyone with an adequate reading comprehension can see he is referring to your stance on it, not accusing you of doing it. And if you go back far enough, you will find that this is in response to what you said about Ananais and Saphira, you know, the ones who actually did lie to the Holy Spirit
Commenting on someone's stance on something is not the same of accusing them of doing it. This is where all the misunderstandings come from, because of you and others carelessly reading other people's words. I hope you don't read the Bible as carelessly as you read these posts.
here is the post you were replying to that you said you reported. Where did he accuse you of lying to the Holy Spirit
Argueless said:
...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
Is it obedience to God to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT? Would God be pleased by lying to Him? Do you SOW to please the Spirit?
...DO NOT BE DECEIVED: GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who SOWS TO PLEASE THE SINFUL NATURE, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who SOWS TO PLEASE THE SPIRIT, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Galatians 6:7-8
Go and know for yourself what dcon's stance is re: LYING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT...then maybe you can share to us what your "HONEST and full of INTEGRITY" mentor have told you. I do expect that he will respond to you unless he's hiding something.
Then you said...
Make no mistake SEOCHE.....the only dishonest person in this post is you....being banned and back again = dishonesty and no integrity....I have reported this post for accusing me of LYING to the Holy SPIRIT......which I have NOT done......keep accusing me falsely....this proves who it is that actually leads YOU.....GOD would NOT lead a man to falsely accuse of the bolded in your post.
So where did Argueless say that you lied to the Holy Spirit in the post you reported? The bolded part you referred to only had to do with your STANCE on it, which was AG's reply to your stance on Ananais and Saphira
Commenting on someone's stance on something is not the same of accusing them of doing it. This is where all the misunderstandings come from, because of you and others carelessly reading other people's words. I hope you don't read the Bible as carelessly as you read these posts.
here is the post you were replying to that you said you reported. Where did he accuse you of lying to the Holy Spirit
Argueless said:
...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
Is it obedience to God to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT? Would God be pleased by lying to Him? Do you SOW to please the Spirit?
...DO NOT BE DECEIVED: GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who SOWS TO PLEASE THE SINFUL NATURE, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who SOWS TO PLEASE THE SPIRIT, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Galatians 6:7-8
Go and know for yourself what dcon's stance is re: LYING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT...then maybe you can share to us what your "HONEST and full of INTEGRITY" mentor have told you. I do expect that he will respond to you unless he's hiding something.
Then you said...
Make no mistake SEOCHE.....the only dishonest person in this post is you....being banned and back again = dishonesty and no integrity....I have reported this post for accusing me of LYING to the Holy SPIRIT......which I have NOT done......keep accusing me falsely....this proves who it is that actually leads YOU.....GOD would NOT lead a man to falsely accuse of the bolded in your post.
So where did Argueless say that you lied to the Holy Spirit in the post you reported? The bolded part you referred to only had to do with your STANCE on it, which was AG's reply to your stance on Ananais and Saphira
If you go back to the original post where you said you reported Argueless, the bolded part that you said contained the accusation (quote- (you said) God would not lead a man to falsely accuse of the bolded in your post) had to do with your stance (on Ananais and Saphira apparently), not on anything YOU did.
Do you see how important reading with COMPREHENSION is?
Ok so if you want to stop the denials, I will exit now.
Do you see how important reading with COMPREHENSION is?
Ok so if you want to stop the denials, I will exit now.
Jesus is a joker to some. If you love me you will obey my commandments.
What He meant is you will never be able to follow my commandments, but I will
forgive you and because you believe I forgive you, you can forever fail to obey. No......
Jesus meant if you love me, you will know why I have made may commandments
and will want to obey, and will succeed in more and more ways as one grows in Him.
To put it into context, this is how we know we know Him as
24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them.
And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us
1 John 3
What He meant is you will never be able to follow my commandments, but I will
forgive you and because you believe I forgive you, you can forever fail to obey. No......
Jesus meant if you love me, you will know why I have made may commandments
and will want to obey, and will succeed in more and more ways as one grows in Him.
To put it into context, this is how we know we know Him as
24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them.
And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us
1 John 3
You are obviously not understanding what is written or you choose to ignore the plain reading of scripture.The passage clearly says:
"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."(James 2:1)
It is established here that James is speaking to brethren who have the faith of the Lord Jesus.They believe enough to be called brethren.There is no mere nor empty profession of faith here.This is actual faith.
I never quoted the passage above to show that it was written to brethren.I quoted the passage to highlight the faith being referred to.It was the faith which allowed the persons referenced to be called brethren.It is not mere nor professing faith.You can't decide who is nominal or not,by your own mind.Neither can James and hence the reason for his admonition in this passage.He sets out clearly what it is that determines who is truly saved.It is not the one who only believes but:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."(James 2:24)
The use of the word, "say", in James 2:14,has confused you into thinking it provides a loophole for your false doctrine.The "saying" is the only evidence that you can have that someone believes.Can you say how else this can be expressed?Hence all who have so professed are viewed as brethren.No one except God can determine if this belief is genuine or not.But apart from being genuine or not,there is another test of this faith and this is the gravamen of James' teaching.Which teaching you refuse to accept.It says clearly:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."(James 2:17)
So whether it is mere/professing faith or real faith it is dead without the appropriate works.This is borne out in the parable of the sower,as apart from those which fell on good ground, others also did believe but were hindered from producing the fruits(works) by various factors and hence were not saved.(Matthew 13:18-23)
The faith is spurious and dead not because it was not faith but because it was not accompanied by the appropriate works.Read it again:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"(James 2:17-20)
As was said above,there is no way to express faith except by initially professing.I will ask again;do you know of another way?How can you know who it is that really believes and who are deceivers who only claim to believe?The fact is you can't.However there is a test to even determine how lasting and effective is the faith of the person who really believes.Jesus said it this way:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."(John 8:32)
And James supports this by saying:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."(James 2:24)
As does the apostle Paul:
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16
There is no contrasting of "faiths" in the passage.Abraham is being used as an example of what the faith they have should produce.There is no mention of non-genuine faith.You misunderstand/misrepresent the fact that all have to express their faith in a particular way.Again,can you show another way to do this apart from "saying"?How do you do it?As I wrote before:
He seals the case(or so he thought)by using the father of faith,Abraham,as the example for all that was said so far.All had faith but the difference with Abraham was:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."(James 2:21-24)
You are very selective with the scriptures and hence you ignore a statement which sheds light on your opinion above.James says:
"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."(James 2:23)
fulfilled -plēroō
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:
After the declaration to Abraham he was told:
"...walk before me and be thou perfect."(Genesis 17:1)
After his act of obedience with his son God said:
"And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."(Genesis 22:16-18)
And also:
"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,and kept my charge,my commandments, my statutes,and my laws."(Genesis 26:5)
What was said of Abraham in Genesis 15:6,was only fulfilled when Abraham obeyed later on.Hence:
"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God...
And:
"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"
(James 2:22)
Just as Abraham fulfilled what was spoken of him initially, in order to complete or make perfect his faith, James is urging the brethren who believe to do the same.He is not contrasting "faiths".
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So if our faith is not perfect then what is it?Of what value is it?If we or Abraham do not fulfill the expectation of what was initially pronounced,then what does this mean?What does this make us?Read what James says:
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"(James 2:20)
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."(James 2:26)
You are clutching at straws here.No one needs to be justified before men.James 2:24, was written in light of what was said in James 2:23.Scripture was only fulfilled because Abraham obeyed.If he had not obeyed,scripture would not have been fulfilled,his faith would not have been made perfect and his faith would be dead.Neither he nor us needs to prove our faith before men.James is merely emphasizing the fact that doing the appropriate works is an expression of the faith one has.(living)In contrast inappropriate works also will show the faith one has.(dead)Hence he says:
"....I will shew thee my faith by my works."(James 2:18)
Again you are clutching at straws.Your concept of faith distorts your understanding of what James is teaching.Like the OSAS error,you believe all "true" faith will produce good works and where there is absence of same it is because the faith was not "true". Truly circular reasoning. Again,the parable of the sower refutes this.The teaching of James,in using Abraham who had true faith as his example,refutes this and the teaching of Jesus and Paul,as was quoted previously,refutes this.The situations of the thief on the cross and the woman caught in adultery show the two sides of the justification process and when properly understood will remove the confusion you are in.One was told to, "go and sin no more",while the other was told,"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Do you understand the reason for the different admonitions?
James teaches no such thing as you claim above.He plainly says:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?(James 2:21,22)
And:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."(James 2:24)
Without the works,even Abraham's faith would be dead.Martin Luther in realising this, probably felt justified in declaring James as an epistle of straw.You would seem more honest in taking this course rather than the one you are on,in trying to pretend the passage isn't saying what is plainly written.
You are thoroughly confused and still stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that James clearly stated - SAYS-CLAIMS (key word) to have faith but has no works. I do despise boasting in works because it robs Christ of His glory and of the credit He alone deserves and gives it to the sinner. Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. If you are looking for the amount of faith that saves, here it is. *Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.
Out of curiosity, I would like to know what church you attend.
Out of curiosity, I would like to know what church you attend.
But you and others are boasting of having superior faith whether you want to accept it or not.You claim to be trusting 100% in Jesus and I guess the professors are somewhere below that.Got to work harder to get to 100%. So even 99% trust will see us being lost?Who/what determines who is trusting 100% vs 99%?As I asked and you failed to answer:
"The way you and others try to claim,the faith of those who say they have faith,was not genuine, make faith into the work and a source of boasting which you despise so much.Those who have "mere" faith will not be saved neither will those who only have,"professing" faith.But what would you say is the amount of faith out of 100% that will get us saved?Is 50% the pass mark or maybe 60% or do I need 100%. What is the standard and who determines this?"
Can anyone from the superior(harder working)faith camp answer these questions?
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Again for the salvation losers and or maintainers......
The following is a comparison between the bible and salvation losers......and make no mistake...this is exactly what they peddle and or how they butcher the word of God by their losable salvation....
Bible --> I will never leave thee or forsake thee
Salvation Losers ---->Jesus is a liar and will leave us and forsake us
Bible --->We are saved to the uttermost and kept by the power of God through faith
Salvation losers --->The power of God is weak and inept, we are not saved to the uttermost and GOD does not keep us
Bible -->Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us
Salvation losers ---> WE must maintain our faith because JESUS does not finish and complete the work of faith in us
Bible --> He that believes on the SON is having everlasting/eternal life
Salvation losers --->He that believes and MAINTAINS his belief on the SON is having temporal life based upon what he does or does not do
Bible --> Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law
Salvation losers -->James out of context tells us we are justified by our works before God
Bible -->It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
Salvation losers --->It pleased God by works, church membership, baptism, pew jumping, speaking in tongues, back flipping down the isle, saying 57 hail Mary's, taking the Lord's supper, keeping the sacraments and a dozen other religiously zealous man made efforts to save them
Bible -->NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD
Salvation losers -->Numerous things can separate us from the love of GOD
Bible--->We are in the Son's hand, the Father's hand and NO AN can remove us from that position
Salvation losers -->The above is false, we can remove ourselves because God is weak and inept
Bible -->We are sealed unto the day of redemption
Salvation losers-->The seal of God can be broken because God is weak and inept
Bible --->Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more
Salvation losers--> We qualify, quantify sin and God's grace only covers those small sins when we mess up and for sure we have never lost it, but eternal security believers lose it because they believe they can live any way they want and live like the devil
Bible --->He that believes on the Son is not condemned
Salvation losers --> Believers are condemned all the time and returned to being goats after becoming sheep
Bible --> I will lose nothing, but raise it up the last day
Salvation losers -->God loses people all the time because he is too weak to keep them saved
Bible--> We are born again from above by INCORRUPTIBLE SEED
Salvation losers --> We are not born of incorruptible seed, because that seed can be corrupted and one die lost after being born again
Bible --> The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable
Salvation losers -->God's free GIFT of salvation can be revoked because GOD will break ALL the above promises and send one to hell after being saved
ETC.............I dare to say that salvation losers are false.....and what they peddle is not of GOD and as blasphemous as it comes......the above is a SMALL sample of scriptural promises that MUST BE DENIED, REJECTED and or SWEPT UNDER THE TABLE to peddle a dime store salvation that cannot be found in the bible and or a dime store salvation that devalues the work, promises and ministry of CHRIST!!!!!!!
The following is a comparison between the bible and salvation losers......and make no mistake...this is exactly what they peddle and or how they butcher the word of God by their losable salvation....
Bible --> I will never leave thee or forsake thee
Salvation Losers ---->Jesus is a liar and will leave us and forsake us
Bible --->We are saved to the uttermost and kept by the power of God through faith
Salvation losers --->The power of God is weak and inept, we are not saved to the uttermost and GOD does not keep us
Bible -->Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us
Salvation losers ---> WE must maintain our faith because JESUS does not finish and complete the work of faith in us
Bible --> He that believes on the SON is having everlasting/eternal life
Salvation losers --->He that believes and MAINTAINS his belief on the SON is having temporal life based upon what he does or does not do
Bible --> Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law
Salvation losers -->James out of context tells us we are justified by our works before God
Bible -->It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
Salvation losers --->It pleased God by works, church membership, baptism, pew jumping, speaking in tongues, back flipping down the isle, saying 57 hail Mary's, taking the Lord's supper, keeping the sacraments and a dozen other religiously zealous man made efforts to save them
Bible -->NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD
Salvation losers -->Numerous things can separate us from the love of GOD
Bible--->We are in the Son's hand, the Father's hand and NO AN can remove us from that position
Salvation losers -->The above is false, we can remove ourselves because God is weak and inept
Bible -->We are sealed unto the day of redemption
Salvation losers-->The seal of God can be broken because God is weak and inept
Bible --->Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more
Salvation losers--> We qualify, quantify sin and God's grace only covers those small sins when we mess up and for sure we have never lost it, but eternal security believers lose it because they believe they can live any way they want and live like the devil
Bible --->He that believes on the Son is not condemned
Salvation losers --> Believers are condemned all the time and returned to being goats after becoming sheep
Bible --> I will lose nothing, but raise it up the last day
Salvation losers -->God loses people all the time because he is too weak to keep them saved
Bible--> We are born again from above by INCORRUPTIBLE SEED
Salvation losers --> We are not born of incorruptible seed, because that seed can be corrupted and one die lost after being born again
Bible --> The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable
Salvation losers -->God's free GIFT of salvation can be revoked because GOD will break ALL the above promises and send one to hell after being saved
ETC.............I dare to say that salvation losers are false.....and what they peddle is not of GOD and as blasphemous as it comes......the above is a SMALL sample of scriptural promises that MUST BE DENIED, REJECTED and or SWEPT UNDER THE TABLE to peddle a dime store salvation that cannot be found in the bible and or a dime store salvation that devalues the work, promises and ministry of CHRIST!!!!!!!
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K
Well I’ve decided to chime in on the topic, it appears though if works are not done the reward/repay/give won’t be very much. that may or may not have anything to do with salvation but clearly works is not something people shouldn’t do but do.
Rev 2:23
And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches will know that I am the One searching affections and hearts; and I will give to each of you according to your works.
Rev 2:23
And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches will know that I am the One searching affections and hearts; and I will give to each of you according to your works.