The Prophet John the Baptist’ Message

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Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#61
Jesus' own words concerning John and the water baptism he introduced:

Luke 7:27
This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Luke 7:29-30
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#62
One would think all churches would be insisting on doing what Jesus commanded; go into all the nations teach and water baptize. Also, He said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#63
Jesus' own words concerning John and the water baptism he introduced:

Luke 7:27
This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Luke 7:29-30
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Baptism did not magically make them become disciples of John, but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision that they made prior to becoming water baptized.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#64
Water baptism no more makes one saved than a wedding ring makes one married.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#65
Water baptism no more makes one saved than a wedding ring makes one married.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Amen! A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this.

Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," yet the ring is not the actual cause of the change in our marital status, just as water baptism is not the actual cause of our spiritual status.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#66
Amen! A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this.

Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," yet the ring is not the actual cause of the change in our marital status, just as water baptism is not the actual cause of our spiritual status.
A big problem today is that many have the ring but never really made the commitment before God and their spouse. God deals in the heart.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
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#67
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Believing in Jesus includes responding to Him. When one sees that Jesus says to water baptize the people you preach to in all nations that is what He means. If you don't believe the message you will not be obedient to it and thus you will refuse it just as the Pharisees did. That is what the scriptures state.

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. Luke 7:30

Another way of looking at Mark 16:16 is if one believes in Jesus and is baptized he shall be saved. If one gets baptized without truly believing in Jesus they are already damned. Obedience to water baptism without the belief in Jesus does nothing but get one wet. Otherwise, belief in Jesus and obedience to water baptism plays a part in the spiritual rebirth. John 3:3
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#68
Do you know if the Jewish bride acquires a new name after her immersion in the Mikvah?
I suppose it would depend on to which sect of Judaism whe and the husband belong..
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#69
I suppose it would depend on to which sect of Judaism whe and the husband belong..
Thank you for the response. Another area of study to look into. :)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
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#70
Amen! A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this.

Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," yet the ring is not the actual cause of the change in our marital status, just as water baptism is not the actual cause of our spiritual status.
Marriage vows include acquiring a ring that symbolizes the commitment to remain married forever as well as the bridegroom's name. Christians receive the bridegroom's name in water baptism. And just as a marriage is not complete or binding without consummation nor is the spiritual rebirth complete without the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#71
A big problem today is that many have the ring but never really made the commitment before God and their spouse. God deals in the heart.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I agree. And spiritually speaking individuals accept Jesus' proposal of marriage but remain a fiancee and never become a bride through obedience to water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#72
Believing in Jesus includes responding to Him. When one sees that Jesus says to water baptize the people you preach to in all nations that is what He means. If you don't believe the message you will not be obedient to it and thus you will refuse it just as the Pharisees did. That is what the scriptures state.

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. Luke 7:30

Another way of looking at Mark 16:16 is if one believes in Jesus and is baptized he shall be saved. If one gets baptized without truly believing in Jesus they are already damned. Obedience to water baptism without the belief in Jesus does nothing but get one wet. Otherwise, belief in Jesus and obedience to water baptism plays a part in the spiritual rebirth. John 3:3
Believing in Jesus includes faith, trust, reliance in Jesus for salvation. Responding to Him afterwards/obedience which follows is works. Unfortunately, many people get water baptized, trusting in their baptism to save them, but don’t truly believe in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, so they remain condemned. The new birth is signified, but is not procured in the waters of baptism. Since the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the council of God, they would naturally refuse to be water baptized. I can’t think of one Christian I know who has refused water baptism and I certainly did not refuse to be water baptized after I was saved through faith in Christ.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#73
Marriage vows include acquiring a ring that symbolizes the commitment to remain married forever as well as the bridegroom's name. Christians receive the bridegroom's name in water baptism. And just as a marriage is not complete or binding without consummation nor is the spiritual rebirth complete without the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
A symbol is not the reality but is the picture of the reality. We receive the Holy Spirit and are saved when we believe the gospel, prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17, 18; 15:8,9; Ephesians 1:13)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#74
After Jesus secured salvation through His death, burial, and resurrection, all of mankind must step out in faith by being obedient to the Word. One element in the Word is everyone must be water baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1. John's baptism was NOT Christian baptism

2. Salvation is NOT secured through water baptism

3. It is Christ who taught us that baptism is in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and His words are the final authority.

4. WE do have instances in the book of Acts which only mention the Lord or the Lord Jesus Christ in connection with baptism. But the doctrine is found in Matthew 28:18-20, and the Didache (a 2nd century Christian writing) states that baptism was in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So does Justin Martyr from the 2nd century. Therefore it is clear that the early Christians were baptizing according to the commandment of Christ.

So you are probably promoting Oneness doctrine, and salvation through water baptism, both of which are TOTALLY FALSE.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#75
So you are probably promoting Oneness doctrine, and salvation through water baptism, both of which are TOTALLY FALSE.
Is he a Oneness Pentecostal? :unsure: I was once approached on my mail route by a Oneness Pentecostal who explained to me that if I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and not in 'Jesus name only' that my baptism was invalid and I will not be saved. o_O
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#76
Otherwise, belief in Jesus and obedience to water baptism plays a part in the spiritual rebirth. John 3:3
Is that what we read in John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:9; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). I see nothing about water baptism in those numerous passages of scripture that connect receiving eternal life/salvation with believing/faith, but not with baptism. By trusting in water baptism to save you, you're not fully trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption to save you.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#77
Why do people always try to put their works into a requirement for Salvation?

I don't see anyone really arguing against a Christian being baptized. If you want to then do it. I don't see any harm in it.

But its not a requirement for Salvation. A person is saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. Not by immersion in water.


Are there any Christians here who haven't been baptized in water? Probably not.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#78
After Jesus secured salvation through His death, burial, and resurrection, all of mankind must step out in faith by being obedient to the Word. One element in the Word is everyone must be water baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is true, for it is the death, burial, and resurrection, of the Lord Jesus Christ, and baptism is in the name of Jesus, for Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

We cannot leave out the water baptism of it for it is part of the Gospel, and we have to identify with the man Christ Jesus that He died, and we repent of our sins, and die out to sin, and He was buried, and we are buried with Him, and He resurrected from the dead, and we receive the Spirit.

They say we do not have to do works, but we cannot cut out part of the Gospel of Christ for it is part of the salvation plan like repenting, and receiving the Spirit.

Everything we do and think is a work, and the Bible says it is the work of faith, and Jesus said if you lust after a woman in your heart it is the same as fornication, or adultery.

So repenting is a work, confessing Christ is a work, having faith is a work.

And we have to have works of love, charity, love in action, for faith to apply in our life, for charity is greater than faith, and John said do not love in word, or in tongue, but love in deed, and in truth.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness(money, material things): from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

I believe that these scriptures apply to them, and we see them in society as they enjoy the world like the world enjoys it, and love money, and material things, the prosperity Gospel, but the love of money is the root of all evil, for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law, charity.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.

They do not understand that when Paul says when we are not saved by works, but by faith, he means when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do is have faith.

And then Paul speaks when we receive the Spirit that we have to have works of love, charity, or we are nothing, and have erred from the faith, saying the same thing as James who said their faith is dead.

For a person is justified by works, and not faith alone, for charity, love in action, is greater than faith.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What don't they understand.

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans, were all baptized in the name of Jesus, and those that were baptized unto John's baptism had to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

For all we do in word, and in deed, we do in the name of Jesus, and there is no other name whereby we are saved, but by the name Jesus.

Jesus told the disciples that when He resurrects to heaven to not ask Him anything, but ask the Father and He will do it.

But in another scripture Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to ask Him and He will do it.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#79
Is that what we read in John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:9; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). I see nothing about water baptism in those numerous passages of scripture that connect receiving eternal life/salvation with believing/faith, but not with baptism. By trusting in water baptism to save you, you're not fully trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption to save you.
Jesus was buried as part of His redemption plan to save us, so water baptism is part of the Gospel.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#80
I agree. And spiritually speaking individuals accept Jesus' proposal of marriage but remain a fiancee and never become a bride through obedience to water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
Not biblically possible. To receive the word of God and trust Christ as Savior is exactly what Jesus said we must do. Gods grace saves us not water baptism.

You can argue that mental ascent is not sufficient and you would be correct. Romans 10:9-10 explains that one must agree with all that the scripture says about Jesus. We are not required to follow all the ordinances of men and church organizations. You are just as married without a wedding ring as you are with a real expensive gold ring. Marriage is a covenant between the couple, each other and God. In fact clergy need not be there to officiate but because the government has encroached into marriage with tax codes and other laws of men it has become necessary to have state approval.

For the cause of Christ
Roger