en to gentiles. It was given to God’s special people, the Jews. To be under that law, you would have to be

[Beckworth]

The Old Testament law of Moses was never given to gentiles. It was for God’s special people, the Jews. (Deuteronomy 5:2, 3) To be under that law you would have to become a Jewish proselyte, the same as today. The gentiles had their own law which by the way was the same one in effect BEFORE the Jewish law was written. (Romans 2:14). Christ was born under the law of Moses because he was a Jew, but He brought a NEW law that was for everyone, Jew and Gentile alike. There are so many scriptures in the New Testament that talk about this: Ephesians 3:11-19. Is a good one that shows that the reason Christ came was to bring all people into one body under his new law, the law of Christ- not Moses.

Hebrews 8:6-13 says that Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant (Testament), established upon better promises. Better than what? Better than the OLD one (Old Testament). Verse 6. Verse 7- the first one (Old Testament) has faults, that’s why there was need for a second ( the New Testament). Verse 8- “...I will make a NEW covenant...” verse 9-“... not like the one I established with their fathers (Jewish) when I led them out of the land of Egypt...”. Now notice verse 13. “...he says a New covenant, he has made the first OLD. Now that which decays and waxes Old is ready to VANISH AWAY. “. If you don’t understand that we are not under the Old Testament law of Moses but we are under the law of Christ, then that misunderstanding will lead you into a lot of errors about the scriptures. Read All if Hebrews 8 and 9 and keep it in contex. This is also discussed in Galatians 3:10-13 and Galatians 4.

I have sought to give you Book, chapter, and verse for authority, not what I think or what some man says. Please study your BIBLE ON THIS Matter. Thank you.

 

[JaumeJ]

Teach on these notions when you know exactly what the Israel of God is and exactly what a Jew is. Until then you do not make sense in your sharing . Any who praise God is a Jew by translation. Any having Jesus Christ as King, Husband, Savior, God etc, is of the Israel of God.

None will know the above when they do not give credit to what Jew and Israel mean. God bless you always.

 

[crossnote]

The Old Testament law of Moses was never given to gentiles. It was for God’s special people, the Jews. (Deuteronomy 5:2, 3) To be under that law you would have to become a Jewish proselyte, the same as today. The gentiles had their own law which by the way was the same one in effect BEFORE the Jewish law was written. (Romans 2:14). Christ was born under the law of Moses because he was a Jew, but He brought a NEW law that was for everyone, Jew and Gentile alike. There are so many scriptures in the New Testament that talk about this: Ephesians 3:11-19. Is a good one that shows that the reason Christ came was to bring all people into one body under his new law, the law of Christ- not Moses.

Hebrews 8:6-13 says that Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant (Testament), established upon better promises. Better than what? Better than the OLD one (Old Testament). Verse 6. Verse 7- the first one (Old Testament) has faults, that’s why there was need for a second ( the New Testament). Verse 8- “...I will make a NEW covenant...” verse 9-“... not like the one I established with their fathers (Jewish) when I led them out of the land of Egypt...”. Now notice verse 13. “...he says a New covenant, he has made the first OLD. Now that which decays and waxes Old is ready to VANISH AWAY. “. If you don’t understand that we are not under the Old Testament law of Moses but we are under the law of Christ, then that misunderstanding will lead you into a lot of errors about the scriptures. Read All if Hebrews 8 and 9 and keep it in contex. This is also discussed in Galatians 3:10-13 and Galatians 4.

I have sought to give you Book, chapter, and verse for authority, not what I think or what some man says. Please study your BIBLE ON THIS Matter. Thank you.

Do you think Abraham's walk was closer to a New Testament walk or a Mosaic walk?

(hint)...Romans 4:12-13 (KJV) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[Beckworth]

Do you think Abraham's walk was closer to a New Testament walk or a Mosaic walk?

(hint)...Romans 4:12-13 (KJV) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

I’m not sure what your point is, but to answer your question of which walk he was closer to the NT walk or a Mosaic one. I would have to say nether since the word walk means @way of life” and he lived hundreds of years before Moses and a thousand years before Christ. He is used as an example of faith in the NT.

 

[crossnote]

I’m not sure what your point is, but to answer your question of which walk he was closer to the NT walk or a Mosaic one. I would have to say nether since the word walk means @way of life” and he lived hundreds of years before Moses and a thousand years before Christ. He is used as an example of faith in the NT.

So it seems you don't agree with vs 12

Romans 4:12 KJV
[12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

His 'way of life' was by faith just like ours is to be.

 

[Beckworth]

So it seems you don't agree with vs 12

Romans 4:12 KJV
[12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

His 'way of life' was by faith just like ours is to be.

Yes, I agree he was our example of faith, just like all of the other Old Testament characters in Hebrews 11-Abel, Noah, Issac, Jacob,Sarah etc. They are all there as examples of people with great faith. Abraham was also an example of being justified by works in James 2:21. See my comments on “Faith is a work”. John 6:29.

 

[Beckworth]

Teach on these notions when you know exactly what the Israel of God is and exactly what a Jew is. Until then you do not make sense in your sharing . Any who praise God is a Jew by translation. Any having Jesus Christ as King, Husband, Savior, God etc, is of the Israel of God.

None will know the above when they do not give credit to what Jew and Israel mean. God bless you always.

Being a Jew by faith and being a Jew by physical birth are two entirely different things. There was a physical nation of Jews in the old testament that were Jews by birth. You seem to have confused the two. The physical nation of Jews were the ones I was talking about in my comments. In the Old Testament you could not be a Jew unless you were BORN A Jew. You could convert to the Jewish faith as Ruth did who was a Moabite. I am not talking about being Jews in a spiritual sense , nor was I in my comments.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, I agree he was our example of faith, just like all of the other Old Testament characters in Hebrews 11-Abel, Noah, Issac, Jacob,Sarah etc. They are all there as examples of people with great faith. Abraham was also an example of being justified by works in James 2:21. See my comments on “Faith is a work”. John 6:29.

Yes, we are justified before men by our works, because they cannot see our faith. But God, who can see our faith, justifies us (by faith alone) before faith has produced good fruit...

Genesis 15:5-6 NKJV
[5] Then He brought him (Abraham) outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." [6] And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

 

[JaumeJ]

Being a Jew by faith and being a Jew by physical birth are two entirely different things. There was a physical nation of Jews in the old testament that were Jews by birth. You seem to have confused the two. The physical nation of Jews were the ones I was talking about in my comments. In the Old Testament you could not be a Jew unless you were BORN A Jew. You could convert to the Jewish faith as Ruth did who was a Moabite. I am not talking about being Jews in a spiritual sense , nor was I in my comments.

You claim to understand the Word, yet you do not understand a simple post for if you did you would know what I have posted is saying the same as what you have posted about being a Jew...……...

 

[Beckworth]

Yes, we are justified before men by our works, because they cannot see our faith. But God, who can see our faith, justifies us (by faith alone) before faith has produced good fruit...

Genesis 15:5-6 NKJV
[5] Then He brought him (Abraham) outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." [6] And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

By faith alone? Then how do you explain James 2:24- “...NOT by faith only “ . Verse 14- ...though a man says he has faith and does not have works, can faith save him? Verse 17- so faith if it has not works is dead being alone. Faith alone is DEAD AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. the answer is in verse 22. It takes faith and works together to make faith perfect. James makes it clear that faith cannot save without works. Not that faith by itself saves and works are just a “sign” of our faith. That is not what this passage is saying at all. Faith only is a doctrine of men. I appeal to you to look honestly at the scriptures and don’t listen to men. Majority does not make something right. Faith is a work John 6:29. There are all kinds of works in the Bible. Some will not save like boastful works in Ephesians 2 and works of the old law of Moses in Galatians 2:16. Because of these verses men have b “ blankedly” said no works save. That is a lie of Satan. Don’t you think he would want you to think that so you will not do the works that DO save, the works of God? John 6:29 is clear that some works DO save. It must be a work of God. And he has more than one. That’s the key to help you understand James 2:14-26. The works that justified and saved in James 2 were works of God. Works commanded by God, works that originated with God-not man. He uses Abraham’s example of offering his son Issac. Why did Abraham offer Issac? Did he just think that up on his own ? No he was commanded by God to do that. So that was a work of God. Whatever God commands is a work of God. That’s why Faith is a work of God John 6..see my thread on Faith is a work.

 

[crossnote]

By faith alone? Then how do you explain James 2:24- “...NOT by faith only “ . Verse 14- ...though a man says he has faith and does not have works, can faith save him? Verse 17- so faith if it has not works is dead being alone. Faith alone is DEAD AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. the answer is in verse 22. It takes faith and works together to make faith perfect. James makes it clear that faith cannot save without works. Not that faith by itself saves and works are just a “sign” of our faith. That is not what this passage is saying at all. Faith only is a doctrine of men. I appeal to you to look honestly at the scriptures and don’t listen to men. Majority does not make something right. Faith is a work John 6:29. There are all kinds of works in the Bible. Some will not save like boastful works in Ephesians 2 and works of the old law of Moses in Galatians 2:16. Because of these verses men have b “ blankedly” said no works save. That is a lie of Satan. Don’t you think he would want you to think that so you will not do the works that DO save, the works of God? John 6:29 is clear that some works DO save. It must be a work of God. And he has more than one. That’s the key to help you understand James 2:14-26. The works that justified and saved in James 2 were works of God. Works commanded by God, works that originated with God-not man. He uses Abraham’s example of offering his son Issac. Why did Abraham offer Issac? Did he just think that up on his own ? No he was commanded by God to do that. So that was a work of God. Whatever God commands is a work of God. That’s why Faith is a work of God John 6..see my thread on Faith is a work.

I already told you. James is speaking of showing our works before men because men can't see our faith, only God can. Besides, James is not laying out the doctrine of justification whereas Paul spent 4 chapters doing so in Romans...you must have skipped over it in your hurry to prove justification by works. This is Christian faith 101.
Our works are a fruit of faith.

Romans 4:6 (KJV) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (Start here)

 

[Beckworth]

You claim to understand the Word, yet you do not understand a simple post for if you did you would know what I have posted is saying the same as what you have posted about being a Jew...……...

Well, my point in my post was that we are not under the old Jewish law of Moses. What is your point??

I already told you. James is speaking of showing our works before men because men can't see our faith, only God can. Besides, James is not laying out the doctrine of justification whereas Paul spent 4 chapters doing so in Romans...you must have skipped over it in your hurry to prove justification by works. This is Christian faith 101.
Our works are a fruit of faith.

Romans 4:6 (KJV) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (Start here)

James is not laying out the doctrine of salvation? Then you must not believe that faith is important in salvation because that is exactly what James is talking about.

I already told you. James is speaking of showing our works before men because men can't see our faith, only God can. Besides, James is not laying out the doctrine of justification whereas Paul spent 4 chapters doing so in Romans...you must have skipped over it in your hurry to prove justification by works. This is Christian faith 101.
Our works are a fruit of faith.

Romans 4:6 (KJV) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (Start here)

Yes, The Holy Spirit talks a lot about faith in Romans. The problem is that every time you see the word “faith”, you see “faith only”. Please note that the word “0nly “ is not in any of those verses. So glad you think that Romans is “laying out the doctrine of salvation” because in chapter 6 he discusses at length the importance of baptism. That also is part of the doctrine of salvation in Romans. The word of God is not a buffet where we just pick and choose what we like and want to believe and reject everything we don’t like. When you read “justified by faith” in Romans 5:1. You read “ justified by faith only” there is a huge difference in being justified by faith and being justified by “faith alone”. What do you do with verses like Romans 10:10- “...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”. There’s another part of Romans “laying out the doctrine of salvation. But if you insist on “faith alone” you will have to reject this. We even have a God approved example of the Ethiopian eunuch giving such a confession just before he was baptized in Acts 8:36-39. So here is the doctrine of salvation that Romans “lays out”: the eunuch BELIEVED, Romans 5:1, he CONFESSED his faith in Jesus, Romans 10:10, and he was BAPTIZED, Romans 6. We have the Holy Spirits commands and a God approved example of a 1st century sinner obeying ALL that the gospel teaches. Do you think that if YOU do the same things commanded in Romans and follow the example of the eunuch doing the same things he did to be saved, that you will be saved, too? Yes. How could that not be true. God is faithful and does not lie. If he saved the eunuch that way, he will surely save us too. How do you prove that you are a Christian? By turning to the Bible and showing that you have done exactly what they did in the New Testament to be saved. Any thing less and you are trusting in a false hope.

 

[JaumeJ]

Where have I even intimated that we are "under the law" as you have said. Are you one of those "we are sved so no work ise expected of us now" boys? God gives His children works to do, there is a big difference doing His works and working for salvation…….Read about the talents of gold, you will see. All blessings in Jesus Yeshua..amen.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Being a Jew by faith and being a Jew by physical birth are two entirely different things. There was a physical nation of Jews in the old testament that were Jews by birth. You seem to have confused the two. The physical nation of Jews were the ones I was talking about in my comments. In the Old Testament you could not be a Jew unless you were BORN A Jew. You could convert to the Jewish faith as Ruth did who was a Moabite. I am not talking about being Jews in a spiritual sense , nor was I in my comments.

hey ~

as a new member you might want to know that this is a very heated debate around here

mixing law and grace

I'm not saying someone is doing that here, but it seems folks have a hard time understanding we are not nor do we become a part of OT covenant when we are saved

just giving you a heads up because going down that road will exhaust you and you will not ever get the response based on the word but a mashup of both testaments that will have you shaking your head

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I’m not sure what your point is, but to answer your question of which walk he was closer to the NT walk or a Mosaic one. I would have to say nether since the word walk means @way of life” and he lived hundreds of years before Moses and a thousand years before Christ. He is used as an example of faith in the NT.

Why would his way of life as a believer be any different than my way of life as a believer?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I agree he was our example of faith, just like all of the other Old Testament characters in Hebrews 11-Abel, Noah, Issac, Jacob,Sarah etc. They are all there as examples of people with great faith. Abraham was also an example of being justified by works in James 2:21. See my comments on “Faith is a work”. John 6:29.

Paul said in rom 4 Abraham was not justified by works

In fact, If we read about abraham, He was justified long before he did any works (or commited his many sins)

James spoke of justification as in he did nto have dead faith, His faith was real. It was so real. He not only was saved, he worked.

As apposed to many who CLAIM to have faith, but are hearers only. Not doers. Whose faith is dead, which is why they are not saved, and why they have no works.

 

[crossnote]

James is not laying out the doctrine of salvation? Then you must not believe that faith is important in salvation because that is exactly what James is talking about.

I said the doctrine of justification, not salvation. Please don't twist my words as you seem to do with Scripture. Are you Roman Catholic, because your view is similar to Rome's...faith + good works = justification.

The problem is that every time you see the word “faith”, you see “faith only”. Please note that the word “0nly “ is not in any of those verses.

In Romans 4:6 where David says without works, what would you like to add?

So glad you think that Romans is “laying out the doctrine of salvation” because in chapter 6 he discusses at length the importance of baptism. That also is part of the doctrine of salvation in Romans.

Baptism in Rom 6 is speaking of being placed into Christ's death, burial and resurrection...a circumcision made without hands through the new birth. But since that is not in Rome's vovabulary it probably isn't in yours either.

The word of God is not a buffet where we just pick and choose what we like and want to believe and reject everything we don’t like. When you read “justified by faith” in Romans 5:1. You read “ justified by faith only” there is a huge difference in being justified by faith and being justified by “faith alone”.

Right, justified by faith is what Rome got the liberal protestants to compromise on, 'justification by faith alone' is what Scriptures teach.

What do you do with verses like Romans 10:10- “...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”. There’s another part of Romans “laying out the doctrine of salvation. But if you insist on “faith alone” you will have to reject this. We even have a God approved example of the Ethiopian eunuch giving such a confession just before he was baptized in Acts 8:36-39. So here is the doctrine of salvation that Romans “lays out”: the eunuch BELIEVED, Romans 5:1, he CONFESSED his faith in Jesus, Romans 10:10, and he was BAPTIZED, Romans 6.

I see, now we have to be baptized to be saved. Now we have Church of God aberrant teaching. I believe I am wasting my time discussing this with one who is into the Galatian error of faith + works. You fail to understand that salvation is a work of God and insist that we interject our works into the mix. Paul had a warning for those who wanted to add their works to the perfect work of Jesus in their preaching/teaching...

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

And here is the Gospel Paul preached BY WHICH YOU ARE SAVED...

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
(1Co 15:1-4)
(I fail to see Baptism there)

I'm not sure if you are struggling with this issue as a babe and have come under poor teaching or if you have been 'professing' Christ, never 'possessing' Him for years, but I refuse to waste further time with someone who has been solidified in error to the point they are teaching it. There's too much of this 'junk teaching' on the internet and I'd rather spend my time helping those who are struggling.

 

[Beckworth]

hey ~

as a new member you might want to know that this is a very heated debate around here

mixing law and grace

I'm not saying someone is doing that here, but it seems folks have a hard time understanding we are not nor do we become a part of OT covenant when we are saved

just giving you a heads up because going down that road will exhaust you and you will not ever get the response based on the word but a mashup of both testaments that will have you shaking your head

Thank you for your concern.although I have no idea how anyone could think I was mixing the Old Testament with salvation. I re-read my post above and there is not one scripture or one comment about the Old Testament. Christ has a law too. Maybe that is the mix-up.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Thank you for your concern.although I have no idea how anyone could think I was mixing the Old Testament with salvation. I re-read my post above and there is not one scripture or one comment about the Old Testament. Christ has a law too. Maybe that is the mix-up.

well I told you LOL!

you just have to mention a few key words and some people are triggered

anyway...sorry to say...maybe you already my post in your other thread...I don't agree with what you are saying there

oh well. 1 out of 2

 

[JaumeJ]

To refer to the Laws given to Moses as the "old Jewish law" is a blatant display of ignorance of the history afforded all by the Word.

Judah is but one tribe of Israel. Jewish is a reference to the denominations tha cameinto being with Christ's first advent. Previous to this time the only reference to the Twelve Trives was and still remans Israel. They could not have been Jews only in Egypt nor those taken out led by Moses. Jewish laws? Does not make any sense, they were the laws given Moses by our Maker.

Jesus, Yeshua, fulfilled all the laws of sacrifice, the priesthood, the Temple, food, and He completed all laws that do not contain mercy, yet Jesus teaches He did not come to destroy th elaw. It is by these fulfillments the law yet exists with the hearts of all who believe, and those laws are only the laws which make Love.....

This is not being under the law but it is obedience to God.

As we are taught inEphesieans we were once disobedient but now we obey God. Find out what this means under grace andmercy and perhaps you will continue learning all that is good in the sight of our Father….