Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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May 1, 2019
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Any time you want to get into deep study let me know. I like the deep research and it is always good to have someone to help get it right.
Couldn't agree more...two or even more can open up deeper understanding when we share where the Holy Spirit is leading. Your studies seem to be producing similar details.....
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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First of all, this was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, a Jew, to the house of Israel! Second, the prophet of God said “my laws” not the Law of Moose. The requirements to observe the Torah, be circumcised and so on are for the Jews (Judaism) not the Christians. As Saint Paul said: you are not under the Law and no one is justified by the Law before God. If you want to be a Jews then good for you. In my case, however, Christ is my master and he set us free from the Law. Long live to Jesus !
Is the New Testament for everyone? Jew, Gentile alike; the same? One Gospel for all?
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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The purpose of the law is to bring you to Christ.

The law ALWAYS shows you your sin and nothing else. But that's not its ultimate purpose.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

In every way, Christ is the end of the law for Righteousness to everyone that believes.
Why rip that text out of the context it was written?
Start in 9:30 to let say verse 8 in chapter 10.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (word) down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (word) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 9:30-10:8 KJV)

!0:6-8 is a paraphrase of the words spoken in prophecy to Israel and now again to Israel and throughout the whole world.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
(Deu 30:6 KJV)
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
(Deu 30:10-14 KJV)

The Word, God's commandments and statutes in the the heart and mouth through Christ is the Faith in which we preach Paul said. Israel did not have this faith. The majority refused it and were only trying to follow the letter of the law and not allowing it in the heart.

For Christ (the word, the law in the heart, mind and mouth) is the end of the law (written on tebles of stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is really sad when we see these types of discussion. The law was given for a purpose.

I think of the example of the speed limit sign. It says that the speed limit is 55 MPH,

Sadly some people think it is more of a guideline on how to do right, than a Law which says your guilty if you do not obey it. So these people have no problem doing 60 MPH, yet they will yell and scream at people doing 80 MPH in the same zone, Not realizing, According to the law. Anyone who does 55.1 MPH and above is ALL guilty of the same crime, and the purpose of the law is to allow the authorities to impose a penalty onall of you who do not obey it.

So sadly what we have is people who were caught doing around 60 yelling and screaming about how they are unfairly charged, they should worry about the people doing 80, and refusing to be trained by the law that they are JUST AS GUILTY

We see the same with spiritual lawyers. The law as given by moses had this caveat attached to it.

Whoever does not confirm and obey every word written shall be under a curse” (the penalty of breaking the law) for those curious as to where this is it can be found in deut 27:16, and quoted by Paul in gal 3.

Yet in the same token as the speed limit, we see people think the law is more of a guideline than a law which says anyone who does not obey every word is guilty. So what do they do? They go around judging people who have these grave sins, while excusing their own what they seem as petty sins, even to the point of not even acknowledging that they are sinning. All the while ignoring the warning James gave us all. That if we keep every aspect of the law. Yet fall in one point, we are guilty of all (cursed is the one who does not obey EVERY....)

The law is there for one reason

The civil law is there to allow the civil government the ability to charge and punish you with a crime, and leave you with no excuse, you have to pay the penalty of that crime,

The law of moses is there to allow God to charge and punish you with crimes against him and leave you with no excuse. But the real purpose is to lead you to christ. Where you (guilty as charged) can be freed from that penalty and restored to a right relationship with him!
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Im not sure If your Interpretation of the scriptures I posted are In agreement but IMO they are harmonizing.
Of coarse. Was hoping before sharing that you would. How do you see the two sets of text harmonizing? Expound please.
QUOTE="lightbearer, post: 3963837, member: 257602"]What seest thou?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE="seed_time_harvest, post: 3963812, member: 111231"]Hebrews 9:11-14
King James Version


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
They were purifying things In the old testament with the blood of bulls and goats which was a foreshadowing of the blood of JESUS which was the actual thing and able to make them perfect.
 
May 1, 2019
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Jesus reveals the criteria for “GREATNESS” in the Kingdom of Heaven, as well as who will be “The Least” in that same Kingdom:

(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus reveals exactly “HOW” to love Him and have “FELLOWSHIP” with Him and The Father;

Joh 14:21 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus reveals, through prophesy, that “MANY” who think they are doing His will will be REMOVED FROM HIS PRESENCE!...Why? for being WITHOUT THE LAW! He clarifies, according to the verse above, “I NEVER KNEW YOU:...” :

Mat 7:22-23 KJV Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus reveals through revelation to the apostle John, even after many of Pauls epistles were written, from which many derive a “No Law” position, that they, the saints, are those that “KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD” and “”THE FAITH OF JESUS”!

Rev 14:12-13 KJV Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And for those who criticize “good works” Note; they are important.

Paul does not contradict any of this, and for those who think he does, How can that be?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jesus reveals the criteria for “GREATNESS” in the Kingdom of Heaven, as well as who will be “The Least” in that same Kingdom:

(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus reveals exactly “HOW” to love Him and have “FELLOWSHIP” with Him and The Father;

Joh 14:21 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus reveals, through prophesy, that “MANY” who think they are doing His will will be REMOVED FROM HIS PRESENCE!...Why? for being WITHOUT THE LAW! He clarifies, according to the verse above, “I NEVER KNEW YOU:...” :

Mat 7:22-23 KJV Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus reveals through revelation to the apostle John, even after many of Pauls epistles were written, from which many derive a “No Law” position, that they, the saints, are those that “KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD” and “”THE FAITH OF JESUS”!

Rev 14:12-13 KJV Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And for those who criticize “good works” Note; they are important.

Paul does not contradict any of this, and for those who think he does, How can that be?
These are descriptive passages not prescriptive.

Can you show some prescriptive passages? (IE, How one is saved, and how one becomes a command keeper?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Why rip that text out of the context it was written?
Start in 9:30 to let say verse 8 in chapter 10.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (word) down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (word) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 9:30-10:8 KJV)

!0:6-8 is a paraphrase of the words spoken in prophecy to Israel and now again to Israel and throughout the whole world.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
(Deu 30:6 KJV)
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
(Deu 30:10-14 KJV)

The Word, God's commandments and statutes in the the heart and mouth through Christ is the Faith in which we preach Paul said. Israel did not have this faith. The majority refused it and were only trying to follow the letter of the law and not allowing it in the heart.

For Christ (the word, the law in the heart, mind and mouth) is the end of the law (written on tebles of stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Its important to understand concepts. But you don't understand them. Because of your insistence in working at the law. You try to twist everything back to working at the law.

Why is it important to understand that Christ is the end of the law for Righteousness to everyone who believes?

Certain judaizers and legalists believe that it is their work at the law that makes them believers. But I have shown that the opposite is the case. Their work at the law shows they do not believe.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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That is what YOU say they believe, that is not what they believe.
It is what they prove in their words and their deeds.

It is what you prove in your words and your deeds.

If a person says they believe but then make a mockery of that belief with their words, their "teaching" and their deeds do you think they really believe? No, of course not. They believe in something else. Not sure what. But its definitely different.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was but a shadow, an outline. But when the real thing comes into view you get detail. What did Jesus say, it used to be against the law to commit adultery, now just THINKING ..... It used to be written in stone, you could have said you didn't know, now it is INSIDE YOU no more excuses. Just because Jesus walked without sin to show us it could be done does not make you have no sin. Anyone who says they are without sin is a liar. What is sin? transgression of the law, or as someone put it to me, lawlessness. Another gentle soul pointed out the law is no longer a burden because it is super easy once you crucify your flesh and lead a Spirit driven life.
The Lord wasn't changing anything about the law. He didn't say it used to be against the law to commit adultery but now just thinking about it is.

He said you were taught this way but I teach you this way. The law was not given its distinguished place as a spiritual law but the Lord gave it its place.

Their is prophecy for this too. I think its in Isaiah, can't remember exactly where off the top of my head.


The point is it was the same 10 commandments written on stone that the Lord Jesus was teaching.

Sin isn't only transgression of the law. Sin includes transgression of the law. Sin is also whatever is not of faith. Because it takes faith in Christ to abide in Him in order to walk in righteousness.

If you are not walking in righteousness then you are transgressing the law. But the law has no power to give you righteousness.

The law is useless for those who have come to Christ and know Righteousness. Why? Because we already know where our righteousness is and its not from our performance or work at the law.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thank you, but "why" do children of God do what is described?
That is what I am asking you. How do they become children of God and what gives them the power to do what is described

If these passages are prescriptive, it means obedience is REQUIRED or must be done FIRST.

That is why I said, they are descriptive.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Thank you, but "why" do children of God do what is described?
Because they have come to Christ and have been given rest from their own work of unrighteousness.

They have been shown a different Way and have been given a different Yoke.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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That is what I am asking you. How do they become children of God and what gives them the power to do what is described

If these passages are prescriptive, it means obedience is REQUIRED or must be done FIRST.

That is why I said, they are descriptive.
I'm looking forward to an honest answer. You know you aren't going to get one, right? The vail is over the mind of the ones who read and try to follow Moses.


Jesus reveals, through prophesy, that “MANY” who think they are doing His will will be REMOVED FROM HIS PRESENCE!...Why? for being WITHOUT THE LAW! He clarifies, according to the verse above, “I NEVER KNEW YOU:...” :

This shows that the poster thinks there is never a time when someone isn't under the law, otherwise he thinks Jesus will say I never knew you. Unfortunately, everyone who works at the law is WITHOUT THE LAW. Only those who have been given rest and abide in Christ have this fortunate side effect of keeping Gods Laws and Statutes.
 
May 1, 2019
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That is what I am asking you. How do they become children of God and what gives them the power to do what is described

If these passages are prescriptive, it means obedience is REQUIRED or must be done FIRST.

That is why I said, they are descriptive.

Nicely worded!

The same can be asked about "what" inspired the "godly sorrow" that leads to repentance. Was that a prescriptive prompting?

That said, would you agree that all promptings and all that The Holy Spirit puts within us, within our hearts, are prescriptive, or would you say that the law written on our hearts and the motivation/will to do them is directed from outside our will?
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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It is what they prove in their words and their deeds.

It is what you prove in your words and your deeds.

If a person says they believe but then make a mockery of that belief with their words, their "teaching" and their deeds do you think they really believe? No, of course not. They believe in something else. Not sure what. But its definitely different.
3 questions

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Do you believe this to be a factual and true statement?

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free but Christ is all, and in all.
Do you believe this to be a factual and true statement?


If the Lord saith I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their heart and I will be to them a God

And you hear a man teach there is no more law , the words and deeds of that man would be considered?

1. of law
2. of lawlessness


Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience Disobedience to what???
Colossians 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him Is the image of Him as one who walks perfectly under the law? Yes, therefore to take Him in, you MUST take in the law, BUT through HIM it is light and easy, in no way a burden because it is your "new nature, it comes more natural to you, and you are not bound by that law at all anymore for any salvation, you are also free from ever having to remain in a STATE of sin because HE made sin so easily forgivable for you through HIS NOT IN ANYWAY EASY DEFEAT OVER DEATH, oh death where is thy sting? but that doesn't mean you lose your knowledge and wisdom which tells you "I am still in the flesh" and that flesh will remain at war with my spirit, and I am not Jesus...

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free but Christ is all, and in all.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Colossians 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
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Nicely worded!

The same can be asked about "what" inspired the "godly sorrow" that leads to repentance. Was that a prescriptive prompting?

That said, would you agree that all promptings and all that The Holy Spirit puts within us, within our hearts, are prescriptive, or would you say that the law written on our hearts and the motivation/will to do them is directed from outside our will?
Good morning, some day I hope to not have to look up everything every time