Faith is a work.

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If you have read my discussion a few pages earlier, I was discussing this with others. If you disagree, you may join in the debate if you want.

In short, you have missed the biggest plot twist in the history of scripture in mid Acts, where God revealed a new plan that was hidden in him since creation began. Ephesians 3:9,

You can also join in the discussion about the word AND in Mark 16:16 if you prefer. :)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

He that believes and is baptized as a unseen witness of the Holy. . shall be saved.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

He that believes by tasting of the power of His word and the powers to come and crucifies the Son of God over and over to public shame every timer they sin, they do not have the unseen witness of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of baptism in them

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6 when a person believes they believe unto salvation .Nothing can be added or subtracted.
 
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So up until offering God a better sacrifice he did not believe in God?

Faith comes first my friend.
No one is denying that.

Yes it’s faith AND works. I agree that faith must come first, as mark 16 16 and James 2 also imply.
 
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I would offer...

Water is used as a metaphor in that ceremonial law performed when entering the priesthood of believers .The Son of man from the tribe of Judah was fulling the prophecy after the new manner of priesthood .(Melchezedek) No longer after a Levi. John the last Levi of the old order.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven
.John3:25-27

Context is important... destroy the foundation of the doctrine then its anything goes.

Signs follow not lead one has a desire represent the gospel . The Unbelieving Jew demanded a sign before they would beleive .(no faith)

The faithless Jew took the shadows. . like water that clearly was used as metaphors and worshipped them as idols tools . . . the work of mans hand.

Taking away the gospel message as if they were more than a ceremonial laws that as a shadow of good things to come it working in the old tesetemmt saints spoke ahead to a suffering Savior and the glory that followed

We look back by the same faith that worked in them, not of our own selves after something we can do, they looked ahead by the same authority .

The faithless Jew would have nothing to do with the idea of a ceremonial law as a shadow. . But rather in affect said; we will do whatsoever our own mouths say . Making the word of God the one source of Christian faith without effect (Jerimiah 44)

Receiving the end of our faith from the beginning as one work our confidence..(Philipian1:6)

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the
grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:8-11

The time of reformation has come, the veil is rent .the last days began .

Water is used a metaphor in all cases .It does not stop being used as a metaphor in parables .

If we walk by faith and then we will not have do obey the desires flesh . Like for instance...get me wet or make a noise as some sort of sign gift to confirm or convince.

The doctrines of God or called water of the word is that by which husbands are to wash their wives in the same way Christ washes us clean from within . Wash each other with the Love of God

The same principle. Its not what goes into the flesh or on the flesh ……..coming from anything pertaining to the flesh. I think it is why Jesus said His flesh profits for nothing.

According to the rule of interpretation. It would be like saying: Do you not understand, that whatsoever goes on the body dries up or washes off? If we do not as Christian, that walk by faith. . . . wrestles against flesh and blood. Then why would we think it has a advantage in knowing Christ? We do not wrestle against flesh and blood (the temporal things seen) because we have a advantage in Christ.

Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man
.Mathew 15:17-20
Are you trying to answer my question? You wrote a lot but what are you actually saying?
 
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Yes the demonstration had not yet occurred .But I do not see how it affects that he is the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world? The principle works with the promised demonstration .Abel received favor as we do. . . by the hearing of his new born again faith.The first martyr who blood cries out..

It involved the work of Christ working in him to both will and do the good pleasure of God. The mystery of faith. the peace of God that surpasses our understanding .It is the work of God that we can believe God .No work of God. . no faith of God by which we could know Him not seen .

The better sacrifice is Christ, the Lamb of God not Abel's blood which spoke of Christ sacrifice of pouring out His Spirit as if it was blood in jeopardy of his own Spirit. . Blood like water represents His unseen Spirit. Some times both metaphors are used together to teach us how to walk by faith.
You mean to say Abel knew he was sacrificing Jesus Christ the Son, when he offered up the lamb?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Are you trying to answer my question? You wrote a lot but what are you actually saying?
Water like blood are used as a metahpor to represent the unseen work of Holy Spirit. We walk by faith not by sight (looking to the temporal...

Mark 16: 16 has nothing to so with water which some use as a idol tool hoping the shadow has become substance as a way of confirming a person is filled .

It is shown being used a in ceremonial law that is performed when a person has a desire to become a member of the priesthood of believers . The context id s found in John3:25 There Jesus from the tribe of Judah is performing the officiating of new priest. .John the last Levi who prepared the way for the new promised order of the priesthood. (melchezedek)

Some have made it into what they call a believers baptism used to confirm something outwardly as if their was such a things as a sign gift. Rather than walking by faith (the unseen)
 
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Abel, and all the OT saints, could not rely on Jesus's DBR to be saved. Paul didn't even exist then.
Abel was saved the same way as any person, called by the hearing of Christ's faith, this is as God worked in Abel to both will and do his good pleasure.

Salvation has nothing to do with Paul or any man's flesh . Jesus is the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world . Not from the one time demonstration of that unseen work rather than walking by faith in respect to the actual works again "from before the foundation". Jesus's flesh profited for nothing .The work of the pouring out His Spirit as if Spirit was blood is unseen.

Some are looking for a fleshly Jesus .He informs us he is not a man as us .we walk by faith the eternal, not after the temporal flesh seen

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more
 
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Read Hebrews 11.
That does not address my point.

Abel and the rest of the OT saints, could not have said "I trust that I am saved by grace thru faith in Jesus apart from works." to get justified like how we do it now.
 
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Abel was saved the same way as any person, called by the hearing of Christ's faith, this is as God worked in Abel to both will and do his good pleasure.

Salvation has nothing to do with Paul or any man's flesh . Jesus is the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world . Not from the one time demonstration of that unseen work rather than walking by faith in respect to the actual works again "from before the foundation". Jesus's flesh profited for nothing .The work of the pouring out His Spirit as if Spirit was blood is unseen.

Some are looking for a fleshly Jesus .He informs us he is not a man as us .we walk by faith the eternal, not after the temporal flesh seen

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more
Abel was saved because he offered a better sacrifice, which is a blood atonement.

Cain was not because he did not want to offer one, even when God gave him a second chance to do so, and even provided a sin offering for him (Genesis 4:7)

Of course we now know in retrospect that Jesus was that sin offering, but we cannot anticipate revelation and claim that was how these 2 were distinguished in terms of one was saved, but one wasn't.
 

PS

Senior Member
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That does not address my point.

Abel and the rest of the OT saints, could not have said "I trust that I am saved by grace thru faith in Jesus apart from works." to get justified like how we do it now.
It addresses your rather silly point, considering we are living in New Testament times and the Old Testament is irrelevant to us.

That aside, your point is still irrelevant. Father and Son are One. Salvation is by faith alone as recorded in Hebrews 11, and GOD IS UNCHANGING.

Christ's death and resurrection means there was NO NEED for sacrifice leaving only FAITH.

As Isiah 12:2 says, (Old Testament) God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. NO WORKS!

Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
 
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It addresses your rather silly point, considering we are living in New Testament times and the Old Testament is irrelevant to us.

That aside, your point is still irrelevant. Father and Son are One. Salvation is by faith alone as recorded in Hebrews 11, and GOD IS UNCHANGING.

Christ's death and resurrection means there was NO NEED for sacrifice leaving only FAITH.

As Isiah 12:2 says, (Old Testament) God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. NO WORKS!

Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
The question is how they were saved, not how we are saved.

They died physically before Jesus arrived at the scene
 

PS

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The question is how they were saved, not how we are saved.

They died physically before Jesus arrived at the scene
The Old Testament Saints were saved because they believed in God.

What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he had reason to be proud, but not with YAHWEH. For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed YAHWEH, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt. But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying sinners, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom 4:1-5 HRB)

Does God give you the Spirit and work miracles among you because you do what the Law requires or because you hear the gospel and believe it? Consider the experience of Abraham; as the scripture says, "He believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous." (Gal 3:5-6 GNB)

And the scripture came true that said, "Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous." And so Abraham was called God's friend. (Jas 2:23 GNB)


God knows His own and those who put their trust in Him. Right from the foundation of the earth.
 
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The Old Testament Saints were saved because they believed in God.

What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he had reason to be proud, but not with YAHWEH. For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed YAHWEH, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt. But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying sinners, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom 4:1-5 HRB)

Does God give you the Spirit and work miracles among you because you do what the Law requires or because you hear the gospel and believe it? Consider the experience of Abraham; as the scripture says, "He believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous." (Gal 3:5-6 GNB)

And the scripture came true that said, "Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous." And so Abraham was called God's friend. (Jas 2:23 GNB)

God knows His own and those who put their trust in Him. Right from the foundation of the earth.
At least we are getting somewhere.

Yes, they believed in God, that is faith.

Many of them also have to show their faith by doing a work. Noah had to build an ark. Rahab had to hide spies. Abel had to offer the correct sacrifice.

For example, if Abel merely believe in God but did not offer a blood sacrifice, he would still have perished like Cain did.

As for Abraham, he had to believe, not about Jesus dying for his sins and rising again for his justification, but he had to believe that God will make him a "father of many", despite his advanced age. (Genesis 15:6)

Hope that is clearer the difference between what they had to believe in or/and do, versus what we have to believe in under the current grace dispensation.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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At least we are getting somewhere.

Yes, they believed in God, that is faith.

Many of them also have to show their faith by doing a work. Noah had to build an ark. Rahab had to hide spies. Abel had to offer the correct sacrifice.

For example, if Abel merely believe in God but did not offer a blood sacrifice, he would still have perished like Cain did.

As for Abraham, he had to believe, not about Jesus dying for his sins and rising again for his justification, but he had to believe that God will make him a "father of many", despite his advanced age. (Genesis 15:6)

Hope that is clearer the difference between what they had to believe in or/and do, versus what we have to believe in under the current grace dispensation.
Forget all that. It is becoming a stumbling stone to you. Nothing we do, or do not do, will ever save us. Simply trust in the Lord with all your heart. The people you give were used in the furtherance of God's work, but without them God would have found another way. Either way their salvation was secure because they believed in God.

Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. (Isa 12:2 KJV)
 
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Forget all that. It is becoming a stumbling stone to you. Nothing we do, or do not do, will ever save us. Simply trust in the Lord with all your heart. The people you give were used in the furtherance of God's work, but without them God would have found another way. Either way their salvation was secure because they believed in God.

Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. (Isa 12:2 KJV)
That is certainly true now for us, because we are under the grace dispensation. Amen!
King David envied us greatly under this dispensation as we are imputed with righteousness apart from works, as Paul quoted in Romans.
 

PS

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That is certainly true now for us, because we are under the grace dispensation. Amen!
King David envied us greatly under this dispensation as we are imputed with righteousness apart from works, as Paul quoted in Romans.
Don't forget, Abraham, Moses and the rest were saints, and were specially mentioned, but don't forget the rest who would be too numerous to name. :) They will all be there, not because of what they did, but because of their faith.
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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Abel was saved because he offered a better sacrifice, which is a blood atonement.

Cain was not because he did not want to offer one, even when God gave him a second chance to do so, and even provided a sin offering for him (Genesis 4:7)

Of course we now know in retrospect that Jesus was that sin offering, but we cannot anticipate revelation and claim that was how these 2 were distinguished in terms of one was saved, but one wasn't.
Abel’s offering did not save him. It’s a matter of his faith. His faith obtained witness that he was righteous. Abel was already righteous that he expressed his faith through his offering.

“By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.”