Free will in the light of Romans 11:25?

[crossnote]

How do you know what percent of Jews have come into the Faith vs. how many Gentiles? There were huge amounts of Jews converted and became believers in and disciples of Christ when He was here during His ministry. Scripture does not give us the exact number, but it was substantial in my opinion.

As well, it was prophesied that only a remnant would be saved, so your thought has merit. But, the exact percent is not knows. Especially as the percent of ACTUAL Christians in the world today is not that great is it? Not talking about those who profess..........but the ACTUAL number of Believers.

Also, Jews are still being converted to Christianity today in Israel. There are several Churches that have Missionaries working there. Even our small group has one Single person, and one Family we sponsor there.

Yes, the very early Church comprised mostly of Jews as the Gospel began by Jewish Apostles and beginning in Jerusalem and then Samaria. And yes, since about the'60's many Jews are turning to Christ as the Messianic movement picks up steam. But in between 150AD and 1967AD Jewish converts were few and far between comparatively speaking.

 

[crossnote]

In the meantime each individual Israelite has an opportunity to receive this mercy - eternal salvation - during his lifetime. That individual doesn't have to try to stay alive hundreds/thousands of years, waiting for Israel to be gathered back into its land.

Opportunity isn't the issue, sure all have the opportunity. The issue is, what is meant by "hardness/blindness has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But does not this 'hardening or blindness' put them at a disadvantage until the fulness of the Gentiles come in?
If 'free will' was as exalted as some try to make it out to be, what business does God have to harden or blind their hearts? (I'm speaking like this only to make a point).
Throughout history since 100AD, the percentage of Jews coming to faith has been much lower then Gentiles.
Granted in the past 30 years that trend has been reversing indicating the end is near.

One must remember,

The term “harden” in harden ones heart actually means to strengthen.

God does not force them not to believe, He strengthens their unbelief.

 

[Journeyman]

Just me I suspect, but I would read the verses above 25 to see what he was saying in context with 25, because therein I find the key to his message.

18) Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

They chose to deny Christ, and because of their unbelief, God blinded their sight to the truth of Christ. And, in this way, the door was opened for the Gentiles to enter in. And God did this to provoke the Jews to jealousy which would cause them to return to Him.....

10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Verse 23 is the main Scripture that so very many people either do not see/understand, or refuse to acknowledge, for it clearly shows that the Jews MUST come to BELIEF in Christ to obtain Eternal Life. There is NO double standard with God. For, if there were, God would NOT be a Just God! Jesus is the ONLY way! Jews who do not confess the Name of Christ WILL NOT enter into eternal life............

Free will is not negated in this passage of Scriptures, for the Jews exercised their free will to deny Christ, and they paid the price for their unbelief. However, as with all others, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, meaning repent and confess the Name of Christ, they will once again be grafted in, and become the heirs of the Promise............ But they will no longer be of the Jewish Religion they practice now, they will become Disciples of Christ, and members of the the One Body, the Church.

(my thoughts only I suspect)

It's good to read the verses before. It also helps to look at parallel passages. A good one is Jn.12:35-41, which says in part,

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? vs.38

That citation comes from Isa,53, which speaks of how the Messiah would come in humility teaching. That could make a doctor of the law angry. Like sending Moses demanding the King of Egypt.

 

[garee]

How do those of you who hold to an unbendable 'free will' position, explain the fact that for the most part of their history, since Christ's death, "a partial hardening/blindness has come upon Israel"? How would you fit this into the 'freewill' scenario? Would you at least say this 'hardening/blindness' puts the Jews at a disadvantage, free will speaking, for the time being?

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.(Rom 11:25) (ESV)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom 11:25)(KJV)

God created both creations. . mankind and the angels hard wired with a will subject to the will of God.

Jesus who ate of the kind of food( spiritual) that the disciples knew not of was ….doing the will of the father and together finishing the work to the good pleasure of the father..

Free will to a Christian is to do the will of God. It has nothing to do with flesh and blood as if we who walked by faith did wrestles against that seen the temporal. .

The time of reformation had come. The period of time when there was kings in Israel a "pagan tradition" had come to a end. The veil was rent... The use of Jewish flesh in that time period as a parable in ceremonial laws a shadows. . . spoke ahead of the suffering of Christ, it had come to a end .The government was restored to the period of Judges .

The Jew coming from the Amorites and the Hittites had become identified as any other pagan or gentile nation. A time of tribulation for Jacob who represents a outward Jew of the flesh. . not one born against as a inward Jew having the Spirit of Christ in them just like any other nation. God has never been the God of one nation... His name Abraham as the bosom of our unseen God reflects the father many nations, as families .

 

[crossnote]

God created both creations. . mankind and the angels hard wired with a will subject to the will of God.

Jesus who ate of the kind of food( spiritual) that the disciples knew not of was ….doing the will of the father and together finishing the work to the good pleasure of the father..

Free will to a Christian is to do the will of God. It has nothing to do with flesh and blood as if we who walked by faith did wrestles against that seen the temporal. .

The time of reformation had come. The period of time when there was kings in Israel a "pagan tradition" had come to a end. The veil was rent... The use of Jewish flesh in that time period as a parable in ceremonial laws a shadows. . . spoke ahead of the suffering of Christ, it had come to a end .The government was restored to the period of Judges .

The Jew coming from the Amorites and the Hittites had become identified as any other pagan or gentile nation. A time of tribulation for Jacob who represents a outward Jew of the flesh. . not one born against as a inward Jew having the Spirit of Christ in them just like any other nation. God has never been the God of one nation... His name Abraham as the bosom of our unseen God reflects the father many nations, as families .

Would you at least say this 'hardening/blindness' puts the Jews at a disadvantage, free will speaking, for the time being?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Would you at least say this 'hardening/blindness' puts the Jews at a disadvantage, free will speaking, for the time being?

God does not put anyone at a disadvantage, particularly the Jews. The Gospel is freely available to all, especially today. But unbelieving Jews choose to put themselves at a disadvantage by rejecting the Gospels. Worldwide Antisemitism has also played a leading role in making Jews resistant to the Gospel.

Total Depravity (which impacts on free will) is a false teaching, since the power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit are discounted.

 

[crossnote]

God does not put anyone at a disadvantage, particularly the Jews.

Then why this sudden turn-around, if the Jews had brought this hardening/blindness upon themselves?...

Romans 11:25 NASBS
[25] For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

 

[Magenta]

Yes, he will have mercy on all when He removes their stony heart. In the meantime, groups are made up of individuals.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NASBS
[25] Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. [26] Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [27] I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

This Scripture started our Sunday teaching of continuing to look into Proverbs, and has been on my mind since... well, it has been on my mind for a while now, but highlighted more recently, and here (again!) you have posted it I as working on this today:

 

[garee]

Would you at least say this 'hardening/blindness' puts the Jews at a disadvantage, free will speaking, for the time being?

Free will is to do the will of the Creator just as he designed it to be.

So then not any more than a gentile.. Salvation is after the flesh of no man. Even Jesus as the Son of man who said his flesh profits for nothing refused to stand in the Holy place as a abomination of desecration..

Jewish flesh is simply used to represent all of mankind . In a ceremonial way. he could of used German or Japanese or any other Heinz 57 variety . .

Just as he used other beasts of the field as clean and unclean . Having a faith that comes from hearing God "clean or redeemed"...and unclean as no faith, unbelief.

 

[CharliRenee]

Free will doesn't negate His supreme authority to do as He sees fit, when He sses fit. He has always reigned supreme. Ours is to get onboard so we can be sensitive to His calling.

 

[oyster67]

How do those of you who hold to an unbendable 'free will' position, explain the fact that for the most part of their history, since Christ's death, "a partial hardening/blindness has come upon Israel"? How would you fit this into the 'freewill' scenario? Would you at least say this 'hardening/blindness' puts the Jews at a disadvantage, free will speaking, for the time being?

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.(Rom 11:25) (ESV)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom 11:25)(KJV)

This condition came about because they had previously made poor choices. Same for many of us today.

 

[Magenta]

Free will doesn't negate His supreme authority to do as He sees fit, when He sees fit. He has always reigned supreme. Ours is to get onboard so we can be sensitive to His calling.

Amen, Renee I heard a wonderful teaching in my car on my way home from work last Thursday on this very subject. It was part of a call-in question and answer Christian talk radio program Basically, it was said that God gives us enough freedom that we are responsible for the choices we make. Personally, I prefer the term self will to free will

 

[CharliRenee]

Amen, Renee I heard a wonderful teaching in my car on my way home from work last Thursday on this very subject. It was part of a call-in question and answer Christian talk radio program Basically, it was said that God gives us enough freedom that we are responsible for the choices we make. Personally, I prefer the term self will to free will

1000 Bams@ Basically, it was said that God gives us enough freedom that we are responsible for the choices we make.

Yeah self will does seem more appropriate, as it sure can be expensive.

 

[crossnote]

This condition came about because they had previously made poor choices. Same for many of us today.

Right, God had concluded both, Jew and Gentile, under sin (Rom 3:9) and yet Scripture says a partial hardening/blindness has come upon Israel (Rom 11:25), but nothing of the same upon the Gentiles.

 

[crossnote]

Jewish flesh is simply used to represent all of mankind . In a ceremonial way. he could of used German or Japanese or any other Heinz 57 variety . .

umm, no, or do you have scriptural support?

 

[Jimbone]

in the beginning, God created Adam and Eve -
He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, and
He commanded them NOT to eat the fruit of the 'tree' -
they 'chose' to disobey...
oh my, what an infectious behavior it became for mankind...

Indisputable, and agreed 100%. I also just wanted to say hi brother, it's always great to "see" you. It would be awesome to meet one day, If He ever wills it, it would be really cool. Have a blessed day man, in Jesus name.

 

[oyster67]

Right, God had concluded both, Jew and Gentile, under sin (Rom 3:9) and yet Scripture says a partial hardening/blindness has come upon Israel (Rom 11:25), but nothing of the same upon the Gentiles.

Romans
10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Today, all have equal opportunity to be grafted into the same Vine. The Lord is rich and good unto all that call upon Him.

 

[crossnote]

Romans
10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Today, all have equal opportunity to be grafted into the same Vine. The Lord is rich and good unto all that call upon Him.

If all have equal opportunity...then what is this??

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[garee]

Amen, Renee I heard a wonderful teaching in my car on my way home from work last Thursday on this very subject. It was part of a call-in question and answer Christian talk radio program Basically, it was said that God gives us enough freedom that we are responsible for the choices we make. Personally, I prefer the term self will to free will

Self will would be what mankind performed in the beginning. Performing the will of another. Did God really say.?

The Christians will....Will of the Father who works in and with the believer to both will and perform his good pleasure. In regard to it as a imputed righteousness.