The Fall of Babylon

[Alertandawake]

In reference to the various chapters concerning The Fall of Babylon in Revelation, like in chapter 14 and chapter 18, have people ever thought the idea that The Fall of Babylon could be a reference to the Monetary System we have in place today?

With the amount of debt that has been accumulated is just so mind staggering, to the point the only way to clear it is to wipe it off as a bad debt.

Unfortunately today, another problem with debt is in many ways, the fault of the people, as many that don't have the money want to have the latest cool gadgets and other fancy electronics, they get themselves caught in these finance plans, that can actually have a high interest rate if they don't pay off in the time given.

I know that the USD is the world reserve currency, but what if the monetary system was to collapse and the USD becomes worthless? Being the world reserve would that not cause catastrophic consequences on the world market? Cannot buy if the money you hold is worth nothing.

 

[JaumeJ]

Until Richard Milhouse Nixon the US Dollar was backed by gold, and that was the standard for the dollar, the value of gold. He took us off the gold standard rendering the value of the dollar to float something liek stocvks in the stock market. Now think in terms of the ecnomic health of the dollar. It is in dire straights but it has been since that move by Nixon.

 

[Adstar]

In reference to the various chapters concerning The Fall of Babylon in Revelation, like in chapter 14 and chapter 18, have people ever thought the idea that The Fall of Babylon could be a reference to the Monetary System we have in place today?

With the amount of debt that has been accumulated is just so mind staggering, to the point the only way to clear it is to wipe it off as a bad debt.

Unfortunately today, another problem with debt is in many ways, the fault of the people, as many that don't have the money want to have the latest cool gadgets and other fancy electronics, they get themselves caught in these finance plans, that can actually have a high interest rate if they don't pay off in the time given.

I know that the USD is the world reserve currency, but what if the monetary system was to collapse and the USD becomes worthless? Being the world reserve would that not cause catastrophic consequences on the world market? Cannot buy if the money you hold is worth nothing.

I lean towards the belief that the fall of today's monetary system will be used to usher in the system of the mark of the beast..

 

[tourist]

I lean towards the belief that the fall of today's monetary system will be used to usher in the system of the mark of the beast..

This type of system uses chip readers.

 

[Alertandawake]

I lean towards the belief that the fall of today's monetary system will be used to usher in the system of the mark of the beast..

I have been thinking this as well, speaking from a financial and technological point of view, combining the two elements together, perhaps what we could be looking at is a fully digital monetary system combined that with a super computer network with artificial intelligence. This is just an opinion of mine based on everything I have researched so far, digital money, artificial intelligence, a monetary system designed to have people stuck in perpetual debt if they are not careful.

For lack of a better expression makes you think if this "beast" could be some type of "AI Banker". If we looking at a new monetary system, a digital monetary system, a credit based system when the actual physical money itself does not exist, maybe in banking terms, this "mark" could be looked at as some type of "loan contract". As like with loans from a bank, the question is what kind of collateral will be required.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In reference to the various chapters concerning The Fall of Babylon in Revelation, like in chapter 14 and chapter 18, have people ever thought the idea that The Fall of Babylon could be a reference to the Monetary System we have in place today?

Good day Alertandawake!

Based on the clues found in Revelation, I would not believe that it has to do with the fall of the current monetary system. And that because Rev.17:18 tells us that the woman, also called the prostitute and Babylon the great, is symbolically representing that city that rules over the kings of the earth. At the time that John was receiving this information from the angel, Rome was that city that was ruling over the kings of the earth. We are also told in part, that the seven heads of the beast symbolically represents seven hills/mountains upon which the woman sits, which means that the woman is a city that sits on seven hills.

Though the mark of the beast, which as you know will be the only way for people to be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts (buy and sell), the fall/destruction is definitely referring to the fate of that city, Babylon the great, which is the headquarters for her idolatrous Babylonian practices. Regarding the cities destruction, it is stated that "Her smoke ascends forever and ever." We also have the following which demonstrates that the fall of Babylon as referring to a city:

"So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. “And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer;"

The above is showing that after the city of Babylon's destruction, no one will ever inhabit that city ever again.

Therefore, taking all of the clues into consideration, the fall of Babylon will be the physical destruction of that city and that by the beast and those ten kings of whom God will put in their hearts to hate the prostitute/city and will destroy her by fire. I personally believe that the beast and the ten kings will nuke that city which is why no one will ever be able to inhabit it again.

 

[Alertandawake]

Thing is, in practical terms what does a prostitute do? Lends her services for money. And for everywhere prostitute, there has to be a pimp somewhere getting most of the money.

The reason why I think it has something to do with the monetary system, and I have been reading up on it quite a bit, and there is much I still don't understand about this monetary system we have today, but the whole thing is just a mess.

Just something in Rev 18.11 that got me thinking, and yes have to look at context, but why would merchants be weeping? Loss of Money? Loss of Income?

Yeah it does look this Babylon concerned to me from how I understand, is going to go through multiple stages of the destruction process.

The description of Rev 18.21, it almost sounds like some kind of nuke, perhaps something along the lines like a Tsunami Bomb?

 

[jb]

Until Richard Milhouse Nixon the US Dollar was backed by gold, and that was the standard for the dollar, the value of gold. He took us off the gold standard rendering the value of the dollar to float something liek stocvks in the stock market. Now think in terms of the ecnomic health of the dollar. It is in dire straights but it has been since that move by Nixon.

"There has been no whitewash in the White House"

 

[jb]

Until Richard Milhouse Nixon the US Dollar was backed by gold, and that was the standard for the dollar, the value of gold. He took us off the gold standard rendering the value of the dollar to float something liek stocvks in the stock market. Now think in terms of the ecnomic health of the dollar. It is in dire straights but it has been since that move by Nixon.

"Watch me lips, I did not..."

 

[MattforJesus]

The truth is Babylon has not fallen yet.

Daniel had a vision of 4 kingdoms that were different than each other, which are the 4 ways of people, and even though they went by the 4 ways of people, one of those ways was their chief mode of operation, and the other 4 in a minor role whatever that ratio was.

Babylon, lion, human religion, had the revelation of God, rode on eagle's wings, but blew it, the eagle's wings were plucked, and a man's heart was given to it, and then became known as the kingdom of man.

Medo-Persia, bear, physical cruelty, arise devour much flesh.

Greece, leopard, human wisdom, philosophy.

Roman Empire, lion, pushing for dominion.

The first 3 kingdoms will never have physical dominion again, but their lives were prolonged for a time and a season, which means their ways are still on earth.

The Roman Empire does not lose her dominion until Jesus puts them down, and 10 horns come from them which is the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section, which they shall devour the whole earth, tread if down, and break it in pieces.

All 4 kingdoms show up at the beast kingdom, 10 horns, Roman Empire, physical dominion, with the ways of a lion, Babylon, human religion, the kingdom of man, with the ways of a bear, Medo-Persia, physical cruelty to take away everyone that opposes their kingdom, and the ways of a leopard, Greece, human wisdom.

The kingdom of man in it's entirety for it is not like the kingdoms of the past that had a chief mode of operation, and the other 3 modes in a minor role, but this kingdom is the 4 ways of people, all 4 kingdoms chief mode of operation in that kingdom.

Which this type of kingdom has never been on earth before.

For this kingdom does not acknowledge a personal God so there is no God to fear, no God to offend, no showing compassion of a God like in the past, and people only going by their own religion, evolution, which they believe they can still evolve to be greater, and spiritual, being physically cruel to go against all people that oppose them, and only going by their own wisdom.

For God is not working among them at all, so there is no mercy from Him, no religion from Him, and no wisdom from Him, and He is not working with them to help them find the truth, like in Romans 1 since they do not like to retain God in their knowledge He will give them over to a reprobate mind, and these people will be deceived by a devil to follow the beast.

And when they take the mark of the beast, microchip linked to satellite, they are saying it is all about mankind with no higher power above them, and then repentance, and salvation, are no longer available to them, and God can put the world down.

In Daniel 2, king Nebuchadnezzar had a dream and a vision, which was the image of a statue of the same 4 beasts that Daniel wrote about in Daniel 7, and all 4 kingdoms do not fall until Jesus hits the feet of the image, then all 4 kingdoms fall.

For as long as their ways are still on earth they have not fallen yet.

The Roman Empire has the dominion, and the world will be split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section, 10 horn kingdom, which America, Canada, and Mexico will be one nation.

With the ways of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece, who has not fallen yet until Jesus puts them down.

So Babylon has not fallen yet, but she will never have physical dominion again, so Babylon in Revelation is Babylon in spirit.

Which she represents the kingdom of man, for all through history a person either belongs to Babylon, the kingdom of man, or the kingdom of God, like all people are either with Adam, or with Jesus.

Babylon is not the monetary system, but the system as a whole, and the nations stand afar off for the fear of her torment when God judges her, but all the nations are together at that time.

So there is a nation that brought back the Babylonian system, which Babylon represents anything goes multiculturism, religious diversity, allowing the worship of many gods, did trade with the world, lived deliciously and in pleasure, and she had the revelation of God until she blew it.

I wonder what nation has a system like that.

 

[azamzimtoti]

In reference to the various chapters concerning The Fall of Babylon in Revelation, like in chapter 14 and chapter 18, have people ever thought the idea that The Fall of Babylon could be a reference to the Monetary System we have in place today?

Nope, "Babylon" was 1st century Israel that killed the Lord, the apostles and the saints, their city "Babylon" was destroyed by the Roman armies when they trampled the city:

(Rev 11:1 Then a measuring rod like a staff was given to me, and I was told, "Get up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and the ones who worship there. )

(Rev 11:2 But do not measure the outer courtyard of the temple; leave it out, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample on the holy city for forty-two months. )

The blood of Jesus, the prophets and the apostles was avenged during that time:

(Rev 18:20 (Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has pronounced judgment against her on your behalf!)

(Mat 23:30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have participated with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' )

(Mat 23:31 By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. )

 

[MattforJesus]

Nope, "Babylon" was 1st century Israel that killed the Lord, the apostles and the saints, their city "Babylon" was destroyed by the Roman armies when they trampled the city:

(Rev 11:1 Then a measuring rod like a staff was given to me, and I was told, "Get up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and the ones who worship there. )

(Rev 11:2 But do not measure the outer courtyard of the temple; leave it out, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample on the holy city for forty-two months. )

The blood of Jesus, the prophets and the apostles was avenged during that time:

(Rev 18:20 (Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has pronounced judgment against her on your behalf!)

(Mat 23:30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have participated with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' )

(Mat 23:31 By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. )

This is not true.

Babylon was a kingdom years before the Roman Empire was a kingdom, and to be referred to as Babylon you have to have that type of system, which Israel did not have that type of system, especially with the Romans there.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Right after they trample on the holy city for three and one half years then God sends Israel 2 witnesses to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Which God said He is going to bring all the house of Jacob back to their land, and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they shall know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will never hide His face from them again, which they will be in the truth from that time forward, and never go astray again.

So it is a future prophesy.

Which the Bible says that Israel is blinded in part, which has to do with Israel as a nation, for they accept the Old Testament for the majority, but not the New, until the fulness of the Gentiles come in, when salvation is no longer available to them, and so all Israel shall be saved.

The Bible says Israel as a nation has 70 weeks, 490 years, to make an end of sins, and bring in everlasting righteousness, and anoint the most holy who is Jesus.

Which the time started before Jesus came for they were not in the truth, for if they were the Roman Empire would of not been in their land having control.

Once the 70th week happens Israel as a nation will be in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, and will never stray again, which Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.

69 weeks has come to pass, and the last week is the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and brings Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The man of sin, New Age Christ, will establish peace in the Middle East, and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel, which the Gentile nations will make sure of it, and the man of sin wants them all back on their land, but God means it for good towards the Jews.

The Gentile nations will come together as one and try to establish peace on earth, and the 7 years period will begin.

For the first three and one half years repentance, and salvation, are still available to the world.

At the end of the first half the man of sin claims to be their God and messiah.

When they take the mark of the beast, which is the microchip linked to satellite, then repentance, and salvation, are no longer available to them, and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in.

God will send Israel as a nation 2 witnesses to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, and at the end of that time Israel will be in the truth, and the 70th week fulfilled.

The world will attack Israel, and Jesus will save them, for all Israel will be saved, and the kingdom on earth restored to them.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The world knows about the 2 witnesses, and they go against anybody that would try to hinder them from witnessing to the Jews, and they kill them at the end of the last three and one half years, and they resurrect to heaven, and the rest of the Jews that did not believe will believe, and Israel as a nation will be in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

When the 2 witnesses preach to the Jews the Jews are on their land.

But if this happened back in the first century how are the Jews back on their land when the Roman Empire scattered them off their land.

And God was allowing them to be punished by them being scattered in to the nations for rejecting the truth, so why would He send them 2 witnesses when He was allowing them to be scattered off their land as a punishment for rejecting the truth.

And how can the world know about the 2 witnesses like Revelation says they do if it is back in the first century, for the earth rejoices when they kill them.

As soon as they trample the holy city for three and one half years, the 2 witnesses start witnessing to them.

Which they shall trample the holy city for the first half of the 7 years period in the future, which Israel is blinded in part at that time, and when it is over the fulness of the Gentiles shall be come in, and then the 2 witnesses shall witness to the Jews for the last half of the 7 years period, and at that time Israel shall be in the truth, and the 70th week fulfilled.

It does not make sense for 2 witnesses to be sent to Israel to turn them to the truth back in the first century when God was punishing them by causing them to be scattered in to the nations for rejecting the truth.

But 2 witnesses are sent to Israel right after they trample the holy city for three and one half years.

That is a contradiction if it was back in the first century, for God was punishing Israel by causing them to be scattered in to the nations, so why would He send them 2 witnesses to turn them to the truth.

At the end of the 70 weeks Israel must be in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, for they have 70 weeks to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah.

But Israel has not done that yet so the 70 weeks could of not been fulfilled.

 

[azamzimtoti]

This is not true.

Tis so Matt.

Look, there is only one great city that John is speaking of in his revelation.

(Rev 11:8 Their corpses will lie in the street of the great city that is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also crucified. )

All of the following "great city" references are related to the above which John then calls "Babylon".

The only exception is this great city:

(Rev 21:10 So he took me away in the Spirit to a huge, majestic mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.)

Which is the same city mentioned in Hebrews:

(Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly )

Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets:

(Eph 2:20 because you have been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. )

(Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.)

 

[Alertandawake]

I actually recommend people read up on the monetary system we have today, because this system we have today may actually be far more dangerous than we know.

What we have today is a debt-usury based system that in my opinion has been designed to trap people into a perpetual debt. The only way to trap a person into a perpetual debt is not just interest, but interest upon interest, if a person cannot pay, they pay more fees or interest on top of the already existing interest and the cycle just keeps on going. And the more reading one does, you can see what a system like this does to the poor and needy. See interest upon interest is a never ending cycle if a person keeps on borrowing on interest. The problem gets worse when people have to pay off their credit card by using another credit card.

Only thing I can think of worse than banks are pawnbrokers/loan sharks.

When I look at verses Exodus 22.25 and Leviticus 25.35-37 we see a reference not to take interest from those who are in need. The concept of loaning to those who are in need of the very basics is probably more to do with the concept of charity.

Looking at the world we live in today, no matter how messed up the financial system is, banks do have to follow certain regulations. I tend to question if the moneylenders/creditors in reference to Exodus 22.25 if it is a more direct reference to people who would be comparable to that of a loan shark/pawnbroker?

Makes you ask this question - is the practice of charging interest upon interest to a poor person who has no way of paying the debt, and the life of said person has become oppressed to the point that his/her life is a living hell because of the greed of the moneylender, could that be considered an abomination??

 

[Adstar]

I have been thinking this as well, speaking from a financial and technological point of view, combining the two elements together, perhaps what we could be looking at is a fully digital monetary system combined that with a super computer network with artificial intelligence. This is just an opinion of mine based on everything I have researched so far, digital money, artificial intelligence, a monetary system designed to have people stuck in perpetual debt if they are not careful.

For lack of a better expression makes you think if this "beast" could be some type of "AI Banker". If we looking at a new monetary system, a digital monetary system, a credit based system when the actual physical money itself does not exist, maybe in banking terms, this "mark" could be looked at as some type of "loan contract". As like with loans from a bank, the question is what kind of collateral will be required.

The digital infrastructure required to establish the cashless mark of the beast has already been established in most modern countries.. Cashless digital money transactions are now comon place to the point where some people never use cash anymore and now use chiped cards that they just wave over a device that auto transfers the agreed value from their account to sellers account..

Sooner or later the cash system will be totally eliminated so that people who currently use cash will be Forced to give it up for the digital system.. From that point it will only take a short time to take those chips on those cards and insert it into ones had or into ones forehead..

 

[Ahwatukee]

The digital infrastructure required to establish the cashless mark of the beast has already been established in most modern countries.. Cashless digital money transactions are now comon place to the point where some people never use cash anymore and now use chiped cards that they just wave over a device that auto transfers the agreed value from their account to sellers account..

Sooner or later the cash system will be totally eliminated so that people who currently use cash will be Forced to give it up for the digital system.. From that point it will only take a short time to take those chips on those cards and insert it into ones hand or into ones forehead..

Agreed! The technology for the mark has already been here in the form of the RFID chip implant under the skin of the hand, which I believe will evolve into something more applicable, but will remain consistent as being located on/in the hand or forhead.

I also believe that people have been in the process of being desensitized by the increase of tattooing and body piercing. Seeing that they are willing to have this done to their bodies and also because of the convenience factor, I believe that they will have no problem receiving an implant or circuit board tattoo which will allow them to electronically buy or sell.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think we have to look at how they would have interpreted it in Johns day

In his day babylon was a reference to the false religious system we know today as the pagan religion which origionated at the tower of babel. And spread throughout the world. Israel was charged with playing the harlot with this system (Baal worship) and both greek and Roman societies were basically run by this system, which was a multi God system.

If we try to interpret it any other way. I think we run into error.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As far as the monetary system, we see this in revelation as the number of the beast..or a mark everyone will have to take if they want to buy or sell. Which I think is coming soon (at least the mark) because the world is being forced into a universal monetary system, and computer breaches and stolen identities will force a security system which I believe will be used by the beast to force people to worship him.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think we have to look at how they would have interpreted it in Johns day

In his day babylon was a reference to the false religious system we know today as the pagan religion which origionated at the tower of babel. And spread throughout the world. Israel was charged with playing the harlot with this system (Baal worship) and both greek and Roman societies were basically run by this system, which was a multi God system.

If we try to interpret it any other way. I think we run into error.

Agreed, but we also have to remember that John is seeing the future. God gives us plenty of clues regarding Babylon the great. One of the most important is when the angel tells John:

" the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

At the time that John was receiving this information Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth. It points us in the future to Rome and her idolatrous religious beliefs and practices which became Roman Catholicism, a counterfeit church. Another important clue is that the angel tells John that the seven heads of the beast symbolically represent seven hills/mountains upon which the woman sits. Rome is famous for and was literally built on what is called the seven hills of Rome. Another clue is that the woman is said to be dressed in purple and scarlet, which are the exact colors worn by the bishops and cardinals of Roman Catholicism.

When we look back at all of the atrocities of the Roman Catholic church such as the inquisitions, if anyone was found to be a heretic (non Catholic) they were thrown into prison, their property was confiscated, they were tortured and many were burned. As far as Roman Catholicism is concerned, their agenda was and is that every person be under the authority of the pope as supreme. Currently they are unable to enforce this, but when that antichrist comes I believe that he will put the office of the pope back into power and that he will play the part of the false prophet.

While it is true that the information was received by John during the late first century, we who are living in the future have a better understanding of his visions and their meanings, where those of his time could not.

Roman Catholicism is Babylon the Great and will rise to power in the last days at the revealing of the antichrist. For with in her can be found many of the Babylonian pagan beliefs and practices which stem from ancient Babylon, some of which are queen of heaven worship and mother and son worship, to name a few.

 

[Alertandawake]

You know when it comes to religious organizations, to me, in most cases can be considered part of the financial system anyways, and yes like the Catholic Church did with the property confiscation. WHat about the selling of indulgences. Have a research on google as to who the guardians are of the Vatican treasury.

Not sure if people know Latin but the term Vicar of Christ is based on this - Vicarius Christi which in the greek you would be getting this - antichristos

Now this is where it gets interesting, there are comparable religions to that of the Roman Catholic belief. The Anglican Church/Church of England can be comparable. It is a interesting background when Church of England formed. To compare, a King of England is to the Church of England what the Pope is to the Catholic Church.

As for the process of people becoming desensitized, I suppose another way one can look at it is people becoming more compliant to the idea of having electronic tracking implants inside of them. The mind altering drugs we see today could also play a role in making a person more compliant. My personal opinion on the current rfid implants, at the very minimum it stands to reason the people who volunteer for such a implant are being used as test subjects, to trial the system, and what is frightening is that the technology has proven to work for cashless payments.

Not long ago I came across something called a Nanopatch, to do with vaccines. So in theory it could be very easy to distribute a Nanopatch with nanotech implants of some kind. Compared to people waiting in queues to get their shots, this kind of system can be mass distributed for people to do DIY.

So once the mark of the beast does come, in my opinion, many will get simply because of this mindset "blind faith". Actually if one does their research, there are pastors out there that are teaching it is okay to accept the mark. ANd how many people then will agree to get just because their pastor said it was ok? Faith in a type of technology that can literally enslave people that is frightening. Too much entertainment, not enough reading has numbed people's brains that many cannot think properly anymore. Many have forgotten how to think, or been conditioned not to think. At rate things are going, wouldn't surprise if people don't want to think because they don't want to be seen judging.