Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

I don't believe we're in Rev. 14 because you don't see the body of Christ after Rev. 3. The tribulation or Jacob's trouble(Jeremiah 30:4-7) is for Israel to come to recognize her true Messiah. God will refine a 1/3 Jewish remnant through the fire of the tribulation.
In Christ there is no Jew or gentile(Galatians 3:28) but Israel retains her national identity with an everlasting name(Isaiah 56:5).
Blindness in part has happened to Israel...TILL...the fullness of the gentiles come in(Romans 11;25) and then UP goes the church and God will be dealing with Israel again.

During the tribulation Israel will be purged.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, TWO PARTS therein shall be CUT OFF and die; but the THIRD shall be left therein.
And I will bring the THIRD PART through the fire(tribulation), and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God(Zechariah 13:8,9).

This is the 1/3 remnant Jesus talks about fleeing the antichrist in Matt. 24:15-20 and God protecting them in Rev. 12:13-17. At the 2nd coming this remnant will look on Whom they've pierced(Zechariah 12:10) and receive their true Messiah and be grafted back into the Vine, Jesus Christ(Romans 11:23-26). Jesus regathers this remnant back to their land(Matt. 24:31) in BELIEF. This remnant will comprise the nation of Israel and will enter the Millennium in natural bodies. This remnant is not part of the church but nevertheless saved.

What is this and what does it mean:

Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Q. Does the above show us time?
A. Absolutely, from that minute that John penned those words (about 2 millennia ago) onward. So we are definitely in it.

And who is a Jew?

Rom 2:28A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

So we are deep in it, the so called Jacob's trouble.

 

[Noose]

Yap, true believers have no thought about gaining salvation by their works. Obedience or following God is the product of something that is already in them.

No one advocates for gaining salvation because of obedience (works done) but abiding in Christ because of obedience- there's a difference.

Obedience and disobedience are choices as we can see it being demonstrated by Adam. If you claim that God causes people to obey then you'll be implicating God for causing sin and death to come to the world because you'd mean that He did not cause Adam to obey. Why is this simple thing messing you up?

 

[Noose]

The passage is about being born again because of the abundant mercy of the Father. This hope of eternal salvation is made possible only by the resurrection of Christ. Without Christ Ressurection, then we are of all men most miserable. This lively hope refers to the past action of Christ and not our desire as something in the future we get. We already have it. The same salvation presently possessed is the same salvation to be revealed in the future time. The salvation we possessed, therefore, is eternal.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Aaaahm, the verse clearly talks of the future. What was done in the past is for everyone (the whole world), what is reserved for future is for those that will be victorious.
Something can not be reserved for you and you when you have it - you can not have your cake and eat it too.

 

[BillG]

Too bad they don't have one of those markers for bad punctuation:

"Chester, you gave me a bad spelling thing." - You need a comma after Chester because it is direct address!

And another one for bad word choice: "bad spelling thing"

 

[Noose]

My brother loves me but to him Jesus is a myth.
I love my brother but Jesus is my Lord.

He would do the same to me as I would do for him.

Who is saved?

IMO, hypothetically, during judgement:

Between you and your brother, one is more likely to be surprised by the outcome, when they will be considered righteous; their response will be more of, "..when did i see you hungry and fed you.."

The other one will also be surprised by the outcome of the judgement when they'll be considered non righteous and their response will be, "..Did i not do this and that in your name Lord?..."

The above is a clear demonstration of the first being the last and the last being the first.

 

[Chester]

View attachment 203807

BillG,
This is only getting worse. My English teacher was very emphatic that we never should end a paper with a quote. And a quote always needed to be explained in our own words. Misuse of quotes is a big problem . . . For some good English and grammar lessons go to . . . . LOL!

Don't worry - you are still my friend! And if fact a better one because of your humor!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No one advocates for gaining salvation because of obedience (works done) but abiding in Christ because of obedience- there's a difference.

Obedience and disobedience are choices as we can see it being demonstrated by Adam. If you claim that God causes people to obey then you'll be implicating God for causing sin and death to come to the world because you'd mean that He did not cause Adam to obey. Why is this simple thing messing you up?

God gave man instructions on how he wants him to live his life while he sojourn here on earth gave him a free choice as to how he wants to live his life here on earth, but man does not play a part, or have a choice in his eternal destination, otherwise, God's grace would be no more grace. You had no choice in being born of your earthly father, just as you have no choice in being born again in your spiritual birth.

 

[Lightskin]

True, but having faith in Christ has nothing to do with mental pictures of Christ on the cross for our sins and then murmuring the same, having faith in Christ/ believing in Christ means loving others.

Believing in Christ means believing his perfect life, his death on the cross and his resurrection. It also means surrendering to him, which yes, means loving others. Loving others is not a work, it is a fruit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The Bible does not teach this.

John 6:38, Jesus died for all of those that his Father gave him, and he said that he would lose none of them, but raise them all up at the last day. He washed away every sin of those people and no sin that you have not repented of will alter the fact that the sin is already paid for and eternal heaven will be your home.

 

[Noose]

Believing in Christ means believing his perfect life, his death on the cross and his resurrection. It also means surrendering to him, which yes, means loving others. Loving others is not a work, it is a fruit.

John 15:12This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

John 13: 34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.

Gen 2:16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

So, you are saying, obeying God is fruit?!

 

[Noose]

God gave man instructions on how he wants him to live his life while he sojourn here on earth gave him a free choice as to how he wants to live his life here on earth, but man does not play a part, or have a choice in his eternal destination, otherwise, God's grace would be no more grace. You had no choice in being born of your earthly father, just as you have no choice in being born again in your spiritual birth.

Rev 14:
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

You have a lot to do and when you die, you shall rest from your deeds.

 

[Noose]

John 6:38, Jesus died for all of those that his Father gave him, and he said that he would lose none of them, but raise them all up at the last day. He washed away every sin of those people and no sin that you have not repented of will alter the fact that the sin is already paid for and eternal heaven will be your home.

A misunderstanding perhaps.

Rom 5:18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Simple logic.

If at the beginning ALL MEN are justified (based on the above scripture) but only a few stand saved in the end, then something went terribly wrong between the start and the end for those that don't make the cut. I reckon it is something they did or failed to do in between the start and the end that made them fall from grace. Do you not agree?

 

[Margo74]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

There are many verses that really do lead one to believe in Once Saved Always Saved and they are misleading as the reality is "one is once saved always saved IF ... THEN" . For example: One is once saved always saved IF one believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, Saviour, Redeemer, one and only Way, Truth, Life, Son of God, ... THEN endures, perseveres, persists, in such faith - never losing it. In latter days, many will depart from the faith. One can only depart from that to which one belonged, so said person was saved and departed from his/her faith. Of course, one can repent and turn back to believing and obeying God's Will IF one so chooses. So, yes, salvation CAN BE LOST and IS LOST BY SOME by their own free will choices of knowingly, deliberately, and willingly sinning and not repenting.

 

[Margo74]

So eternal life is not eternal life.

Thats good to know.

Gods promise that we will never die is not true

Again, Good to know

Gods promise that we will never hunger or thirst is not true

Again, good to know

Gods promise he WILl raise us on the last day is not true

His promise that we are sealed with the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption is not true

Its good to know All these things and other promised are not true, It would be so sad to have faith in God to keep his promises, only to later find out that non of those things are really true, and we will end up in hell anyway.

Eternal life IS eternal if you choose to believe and endure in your belief and if you choose to obey God's Will and genuinely repent when you fail to do so. Eternal salvation is a gift offered to ALL but not ALL accept it and of those who do accept it, not ALL choose to keep it - their choice, their consequence.

 

[Noose]

Q. Can eternal life be lost?
A. Not sure, let's see

Rom 5:18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation (eternal death) for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life (eternal life) for all men.

But in the end, very few men partake this eternal life, what happened to the rest? Did they lose the eternal life?! How can something eternal be lost?!

I'm not saying eternal life can be lost but everything good from God remains unto us a promise we work towards and we are assured to partake if we emerge victorious in the end. As much as all the work was done in the past, it remains a promise to us.

An OSAS person is the one that likes quoting these promises and applying them now.

 

[Lightskin]

I am trying to understand what you are trying to get across to me. Are you saying that when you are born again, that you do not commit a sin anymore?

Many folks here say exactly that. Beware.

 

[BillG]

There are many verses that really do lead one to believe in Once Saved Always Saved and they are misleading as the reality is "one is once saved always saved IF ... THEN" . For example: One is once saved always saved IF one believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, Saviour, Redeemer, one and only Way, Truth, Life, Son of God, ... THEN endures, perseveres, persists, in such faith - never losing it. In latter days, many will depart from the faith. One can only depart from that to which one belonged, so said person was saved and departed from his/her faith. Of course, one can repent and turn back to believing and obeying God's Will IF one so chooses. So, yes, salvation CAN BE LOST and IS LOST BY SOME by their own free will choices of knowingly, deliberately, and willingly sinning and not repenting.

Hi Margo

I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions based on your above quote.

I assume when talk you about departing from faith you mean to fall away.
The one who falls away you say can repent and turn back.

If my assumption is correct who do you think falls into the category of people talked about in?

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

If I am reading you correctly then the people you reference cannot be renewed to repentance.

So that's my first thoughts about faith.

You say that salvation can be lost concerning sinning and not repenting.

I assume your thoughts are based on the following

Hebrews 10:26
Faithfulness and Judgment
26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.

What is the deliberate willful sinning in the above verse mean to you and does it relate to the people you reference in your post?

Is not all sin deliberate and willingly done?
Are sins committed not just those of commission but also omission?
How do we categorise sin?
Some denominations say that drinking alcohol is a sin.
Are you talking about the sins that Paul addressed which includes gluttony, selfish ambition and so on?

You mention repenting.
What is repenting/repentance mean to you?

Sorry asked more than a couple of questions.
Hope you don't mind.
Also I have made assumptions based on what I think your saying.
That is not me saying this is what you are saying.

Bill

 

[Lightskin]

You keep posting nonsense.

That’s the Word of God. Romans 5:8. Take it up with God if you have a problem.

 

[Lightskin]

John 15:12This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

John 13: 34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.

Gen 2:16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

So, you are saying, obeying God is fruit?!

You’re deliberately twisting what I said. You said loving others is a work and I said loving others is a fruit. Now how about leaving the Garden of Eden and coming to the grace of the cross and empty tomb.

 

[UnderGrace]

You’re deliberately twisting what I said. You said loving others is a work and I said loving others is a fruit. Now how about leaving the Garden of Eden and coming to the grace of the cross and empty tomb.

No surprise there really