Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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Of course, Christ saves us BUT only IF we submit to His doing so. He will NEVER force Himself on anyone to come to Him or stay with Him. Some come and stay and some never come and others come and then leave. The Father draws those He chooses but they may not go to Him and He will not force them to come. God does not need us - we need God. Those who choose to go to, and stay with God WILL do so only IF they endure in faith, love, obedience, and repentance when they disobey. Abraham was righteous due to his faith that made him trusting enough to obey God without hesitation. Abraham didn't simply believe. He obeyed God's command to him because he believed. We, too, must obey God IF we believe and when we fail to obey, it does not mean we stopped believing but it does mean we turned away and back to sin so we must repent as we cannot choose God and choose sin, too. They are incompatible, so we must choose only one - God OR sin. Unrepentant sin leads to death but repentant sin turns us back to being with God by doing His Will, not our own self-serving, man-loving, man-pleasing will. We must go to God and stay with Him on HIS terms aka according to HIS Will and that is to believe, love, obey, repent when we disobey.
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I don't think you got me.
Spiritually speaking, i'm not a sinner because of what i do but what Adam did. In this regard, i was a sinner in my mother's womb not because i did anything but based on Adam's disobedience. And this kind sin matters a lot. This kind of sin is what Jesus atoned for.
In this regard, you can not ask me if i'm sinner especially after Jesus died for me. I'm not.
But my flesh is corrupt from the beginning and it will die anyway. The flesh pays by the everyday suffering. In this regard, my flesh is weak and i sin yes but matters less because i will shed it in the end.
Spiritually speaking, i'm not a sinner because of what i do but what Adam did. In this regard, i was a sinner in my mother's womb not because i did anything but based on Adam's disobedience. And this kind sin matters a lot. This kind of sin is what Jesus atoned for.
In this regard, you can not ask me if i'm sinner especially after Jesus died for me. I'm not.
But my flesh is corrupt from the beginning and it will die anyway. The flesh pays by the everyday suffering. In this regard, my flesh is weak and i sin yes but matters less because i will shed it in the end.
You have not comprehended the nature of Gods grace. You imply that merit is required where grace is wholly without merit. You place service ahead of simply receiving and believing.
Will a believer do what you assert is necessary? Yes believers will serve and submit to Christ. Where you err is making their salvation contingent upon serving and submitting whereas they are the result of believing not the cause. The branch bears the fruit it does not produce the fruit.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Will a believer do what you assert is necessary? Yes believers will serve and submit to Christ. Where you err is making their salvation contingent upon serving and submitting whereas they are the result of believing not the cause. The branch bears the fruit it does not produce the fruit.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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You can not talk about sin and miss to talk about Adam just like you can not talk about righteousness and miss to talk about Christ.
Have all sinned and fallen short of the glory? Yes
Have all been justified and reconciled back to God? Yes
Will all make it in the end? No
What else did you want to know?
Have all sinned and fallen short of the glory? Yes
Have all been justified and reconciled back to God? Yes
Will all make it in the end? No
What else did you want to know?
And you can earn and lose whatever you are calling salvation as attested by numerous scriptures.
1 Tim 5:7Give these instructions to the believers, so that they will be above reproach. 8If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
If one moves from being a believer to being worse than a believer, are they still eternally saved?
1 Tim 5:7Give these instructions to the believers, so that they will be above reproach. 8If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
If one moves from being a believer to being worse than a believer, are they still eternally saved?
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Aaaah, i wish you were also a breath of fresh air.
1 Tim 4:9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
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15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Tim 4:9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
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15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
All gifts by man and by God can be accepted or rejected and if accepted can be misplaced/lost but later found and kept or thrown away and never taken back. IF we accept God's gift of Salvation, THEN we can keep it by obeying His Will and repenting when we fail to do so or we can misplace/lose it by sinning but can find it again by repenting or leave it lost by never repenting. A gift is a gift is a gift whether by man or by God and the only difference is that God's gift of Salvation is the greatest gift of all and anyone in their right spiritual mind and heart set would accept it and forever keep it by avoiding sin and repenting when one does sin. As I have said countless times, God offers the gift of Salvation but will NEVER force it on anyone nor force anyone to keep it if they do accept it. That must be our own free will choice. God wants that we accept and keep His most precious gift but He knows some won't and He won't force anyone to do so as to force us to go to Him and stay with Him makes us prisoners and slaves by taking away our free will choices and Heaven would become a prison, not a paradise.
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Interesting discussion going on here - I see Margo74 as someone honestly and openly endeavoring to serve the Lord, admitting sin and failure and struggle, but growing in grace and love.
To say that "we are saved by grace because we cannot obey"? Really, where does the Bible say this? The command to obey is repeated and given throughout the New Testament. Never that I know does the Word say we cannot obey. Surely the Word admits our humanness and our inability to follow God perfectly and completely, but this is quite different from saying we "are saved by grace because we cannot obey. "
If you say something like this I would agree: We are saved by grace and not by works. We have all sinned and were it not for the grace of God none of us would be saved.
To accuse someone of peddling a "works doctrine" and "robbing Jesus of His glory" and "calling Him a failure in His ability to keep a person saved" are quite severe charges! Now perhaps Margo74 has actually said these things? Or, is she being interpreted this way because she does not believe in OSAS?
Margo, do you believe in a works doctrine? do you believe you help Jesus keep yourself saved? do you believe that Jesus is a failure because He is not able to keep you saved? (Do you believe these or have you said these things?)
To say that "we are saved by grace because we cannot obey"? Really, where does the Bible say this? The command to obey is repeated and given throughout the New Testament. Never that I know does the Word say we cannot obey. Surely the Word admits our humanness and our inability to follow God perfectly and completely, but this is quite different from saying we "are saved by grace because we cannot obey. "
If you say something like this I would agree: We are saved by grace and not by works. We have all sinned and were it not for the grace of God none of us would be saved.
To accuse someone of peddling a "works doctrine" and "robbing Jesus of His glory" and "calling Him a failure in His ability to keep a person saved" are quite severe charges! Now perhaps Margo74 has actually said these things? Or, is she being interpreted this way because she does not believe in OSAS?
Margo, do you believe in a works doctrine? do you believe you help Jesus keep yourself saved? do you believe that Jesus is a failure because He is not able to keep you saved? (Do you believe these or have you said these things?)
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We ABSOLUTELY cannot obey!
THAT is the whole point as to why Jesus had to come. Once we are born again, we have the Holy Spirit, and a NEW heart to help us obey. But we will NEVER FULLY obey, until we leave this body of death, and are given our incorruptible body.
Notice we were DEAD, but it was GOD THAT MADE US ALIVE!! Think about that. We were dead, UNABLE to obey, and the HE MADE US ALIVE!
Ephesians 2:1-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Praise Jesus!
THAT is the whole point as to why Jesus had to come. Once we are born again, we have the Holy Spirit, and a NEW heart to help us obey. But we will NEVER FULLY obey, until we leave this body of death, and are given our incorruptible body.
Notice we were DEAD, but it was GOD THAT MADE US ALIVE!! Think about that. We were dead, UNABLE to obey, and the HE MADE US ALIVE!
Ephesians 2:1-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Praise Jesus!
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