The Trinity

[iwant2serve]

I have been involved in a few conversations as of late concerning the trinity. The most popular statement I hear God in three persons. Now I do understand the thought behind it as God the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all one as God. As I have thought about this over time I have come to say some people believe that is the only way one should view it. However the Bible never called God three persons but says that there are three that bare record in heaven The Father, The Word and The Holy Ghost and these three are one (1 John 5:7). I have heard some say as I have that God has chosen to reveal himself to the world in these three words because (John 1:1-3) says In the beginning the Word was God and the Word was with God the same as in the beginning with God. All things were created by him and without him was not anything made. Then in Verse 16 it says The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. My whole point is who is right or wrong when we cannot explain it to a clear understanding. Therefore I say the way you understand it that all three are one God (the Godhead) I do not thing it matters that much.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I will repost here what I wrote earlier to a similar topic, maybe it will be helpful to you.
God in fact does give us the model for the Godhead: we are created in His image.

"It always frustrated me when I got converted and started reading the Bible, when you ask Trinity explained they always tell you about the egg white and egg yolk. Why do it, when God Himself tells us in the Bible and right early, that we are made "in His image". So that is what God considered fit to tell us about the Godhead, then. If we were not made in His image, we could never relate to Him. God wanted a relationship with us. And this is why God uses the parable of the Body of Christ (we all have a body, so it is something we can understand and relate to) to teach us the mystery of Christ and the Church.

We have a head to the body (God has Jesus as the head to the Body of Christ). Furthermore the head speaks and rules our body (just as Jesus is the Word of God and rules the Body of Christ). So this is the body of God.
We have our spirit (God has His). This is the spirit of God.
So far it's easily backed up Biblically. It's the Father that's the tough one, because He's the one no one has seen Him and stayed alive. Lol

Man has an invisible self, too. Our soul or mind, which we can't see but everything we say or do is there first before we say it or make it happen, like Father God who causes everything to happen. It's like Jesus is the Word, and He speaks to us what's on Father God's mind. Of course, I am not saying as a theological statement that Father could be defined as the soul or mind of God. I am merely drawing a similarity, hoping it would be helpful, since the Bible does say we are made in God's image.

All three are one inseparable being but all three also can definitely interact with one another, therefore the notion of three "persons". In Eastern Orthodoxy traditional wording (as per the Christian council creeds) they translate it as God is "three-imaged". We need to stick to the Scriptures always but let's admit: God is a VERY unique being and language might be escaping us a little here on this one to allow ourselves to be strictly dogmatic like some people are doing.

 

[Melach]

God is body soul spirit. like us, we are made in His image its not that hard.

unitarian case can be made by saying that Jesus Christ has a God, "i go to my God, and your God" therefore Jesus cant be God or its two gods.

but again this is failing to think about Jesus being on earth as a man He was fully man. so as an obedient jewish man He said it. it might be complicated but with God's Spirit entering you, becomes revelation. i truly believe the doctrine of the trinity wasnt spoken so complicated as we have today in the early church those fishermen and gardeners couldnt of been that smart.

they probably just believed that God is the Father and Jesus is His Son and Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. thats all. its simple i promise thats what most people in those apostolic times probably believed.
the educated jews talked about the logos of God a lot and thats what john is talking about too in john 1:1.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Theological language has been crafted carefully to avoid the many heretical beliefs on this topic. The language provides guardrails to protect from heretics.

For one example, some claim the oneness of God is only in regards to their purpose, rather than being related to their essence or being. In essence, they are polytheists, believing in three different gods.

Loose language regarding theology results in confusion, ignorance and heresy.

Additionally, if the wording doesn't matter much, why don't the heretics accept the wording that evangelical Christians hold? The reality is that they don't want to. Their aberrant theology often involves a denial of the deity of Christ or some other weird claim.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God is body soul spirit. like us, we are made in His image its not that hard.

unitarian case can be made by saying that Jesus Christ has a God, "i go to my God, and your God" therefore Jesus cant be God or its two gods.

but again this is failing to think about Jesus being on earth as a man He was fully man. so as an obedient jewish man He said it. it might be complicated but with God's Spirit entering you, becomes revelation. i truly believe the doctrine of the trinity wasnt spoken so complicated as we have today in the early church those fishermen and gardeners couldnt of been that smart.

they probably just believed that God is the Father and Jesus is His Son and Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. thats all. its simple i promise thats what most people in those apostolic times probably believed.
the educated jews talked about the logos of God a lot and thats what john is talking about too in john 1:1.

The analogy you are using is more like Oneness theology if I understand correctly.

Additionally, the apostles knew that Jesus was God (John 1) and that the Holy Spirit was another Advocate, like Jesus, with the attributes of Personhood (John 14-17).

So, we have the basis for the Trinity in these verses alone, along with John 10:30.

The Trinity doctrine wasn't formulated formally until later, in reaction to heretics, but the apostles knew these things.

Like I said, theological language hedges against error.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This website seems to accept a lot of heretical beliefs, including denying the deity of Jesus and the Trinity. Pretty sad.

 

[JaumeJ]

My constant refrain on this subject of Godin three persons is Isaiah 9:Y where we are taught that the Babe to be vorn to a virgen would be called Everlasting Father, God Almighty, Comforter, Counselor, Ruler of Peace. There seems to be no question God is One.

Also He told Moses He would be What He would be. In other words if Moses did not know all, it is crtain none here are greater……...than he.

 

[Nehemiah6]

However the Bible never called God three persons but says that there are three that bare record in heaven The Father, The Word and The Holy Ghost and these three are one...

That God is three divine Persons is IMPLIED in Matthew 28:19. The Bible is not a textbook to always give explicit statements such as "God is three Persons".

 

[Melach]

That God is three divine Persons is IMPLIED in Matthew 28:19. The Bible is not a textbook to always give explicit statements such as "God is three Persons".

one other implied is the very word for God in hebrew:

elohim. its plural but one God. its in plurality. it also says in genesis let us make.

 

[Nehemiah6]

one other implied is the very word for God in hebrew: elohim. its plural but one God. its in plurality. it also says in genesis let us make.

That is perfectly correct. Elohim itself reveals the Trinity, and when you take Genesis 1:1,2 and John 1:1-3 together, it is perfectly clear that even though God the Word (Christ) was designated to be the Creator, the triune Godhead was fully involved. That is a part of the Mystery of God and of Christ.

Note: All Hebrew words ending with "-im" are plural, e.g. Cherub and Cherubim, Seraph and Seraphim. etc.. There was no need to add an "s" to Cherubim. For God, the singular was "El" but we always see Elohim. Unfortunately the same Hebrew words could also be applied to false gods, but the context always makes it clear as to who is being referred to.

 

[Melach]

That is perfectly correct. Elohim itself reveals the Trinity, and when you take Genesis 1:1,2 and John 1:1-3 together, it is perfectly clear that even though God the Word (Christ) was designated to be the Creator, the triune Godhead was fully involved. That is a part of the Mystery of God and of Christ.

Note: All Hebrew words ending with "-im" are plural, e.g. Cherub and Cherubim, Seraph and Seraphim. etc.. There was no need to add an "s" to Cherubim. For God, the singular was "El" but we always see Elohim. Unfortunately the same Hebrew words could also be applied to false gods, but the context always makes it clear as to who is being referred to.

if you dont believe Jesus is diety i believe you are unsaved. do u agree?

 

[Nehemiah6]

if you dont believe Jesus is diety i believe you are unsaved. do u agree?

Correct. That is exactly what Jesus said: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24). "He" (in italics) should never have been inserted, and "I AM" should have been capitalized.

And since He had also said that "Before Abraham was, I AM" it meant that He is God.
"I AM" or "I AM THAT I AM" is another Name of YHWH (translated as the LORD). See Exodus chapter 3.

 

[RickStudies]

I have read that the Old Testament Hebrew refers to a Big Yahweh and also a Little Yahweh. I don`t read Hebrew but there are places in the Old Testament where reference is made to two.

The earliest references to God as a trinity are found in the writings of the Catholic early church fathers. Among Catholic scholars these writings pretty much carry the same weight as scriptures.

Here`s what I think is interesting, the works are written in Latin. The Latin word for person is Homo. But when they write about the trinity the early church fathers called it a persona, three personas.

In Latin a persona is a mask that an actor wore for a part. The modern word person is derived from the latin persona. The original trinity doctrine didn`t consider the Godhead 3 persons or else they would have said 3 homo not 3 personas.

 

[bluto]

Since you have just stated the following, "I have read that the Old Testament Hebrew refers to a Big Yahweh and also a Little Yahweh. I don`t read Hebrew but there are places in the Old Testament where reference is made to two."

Please tell us all here where these references are in the Bible where there is a "Big Yahweh and a Little Yahweh?" And here in my reading of the Bible there is only One Yahweh. How do you explain this?

IN HIM,
bluto

 

[RickStudies]

Since you have just stated the following, "I have read that the Old Testament Hebrew refers to a Big Yahweh and also a Little Yahweh. I don`t read Hebrew but there are places in the Old Testament where reference is made to two."

Please tell us all here where these references are in the Bible where there is a "Big Yahweh and a Little Yahweh?" And here in my reading of the Bible there is only One Yahweh. How do you explain this?

IN HIM,
bluto

I don`t read Hebrew so explaining is a challenge. I did a quick search but was not able to retrieve the article. If you want to really pursue this you need to find some good Messianic Jewish commentary on the Godhead.

Short of that, what I can tell you is that in the Old Testament it will say Lord or God in places that could have been translated as Yahweh. One Yahweh is the Father and the other Yahweh is the being that became the Son.

I will give you an example, an easy one.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Notice that it implies that two are talking and makes a distinction between two lords. the King and His Redeemer.

I ask you, how many first and last I am can there be?


Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[bluto]

First of all you don't have to read Hebrew to understand what God is teaching us about Himself. Secondly, the following statement of yours is not true. "The earliest references to God as a trinity are found in the writings of the Catholic early church fathers. Among Catholic scholars these writings pretty much carry the same weight as scriptures."

First let me explain that the Trinity doctrine is about the nature of the ONE God, not about the existence of three gods. The doctrine of the Trinity affirms that the one God who created time and space is one "BEING", comprised of three simultaneous persons. That is, the being of God is present in three simultaneous personal manifestations within the Bible.

Now, you quoted Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of host; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." The word "Redeemer" in the verse is referring to God Himself. This is how the Jews would understand the word in it's immediate context.

We on the other hand as Christians would agree with the Jews on this but we would also think that it refers to Jesus Christ since He is the Redeener as well. Plus we know from Revelation 1 that Jesus Christ is also the "First and last" and the "Alpha and Omega."

Now look at Isaiah 48:16-17, "Come near to Me, listen to this; From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place I was there, and now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit." This verse alone is filled with "good" stuff and it predates the writings of the Catholic early church fathers.

Please keep in mind, the Bible makes it clear that there are three and only three persons who are clearly identified as God in all of the ways that the Bible identifies God. By His name, titles, His unique attributes (or nature), and His unique actions. Here, I'll present the following syllogism.

If the Bible teaches that there is one God

and

If in the Bible the Father is identified as God

and

If in the Bible His Son is identifed as God

and

If in the Bible their Spirit is identified as God

The the doctrrine of the Trinity is valid

Or

The Bible is wrong.

Romans 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you. He who rasied Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[RickStudies]

My comments are in ( )

First of all you don't have to read Hebrew to understand what God is teaching us about Himself.
( Understanding how written Hebrew and Greek work is very helpful. I wish I was better at it)


Secondly, the following statement of yours is not true. "The earliest references to God as a trinity are found in the writings of the Catholic early church fathers. Among Catholic scholars these writings pretty much carry the same weight as scriptures."
( My assertion about that comes from direct experience with Catholic scholars. When they can`t prove their assertion with the Bible they insist on quoting those writings like scripture every time.)

First let me explain that the Trinity doctrine is about the nature of the ONE God, not about the existence of three gods. The doctrine of the Trinity affirms that the one God who created time and space is one "BEING", comprised of three simultaneous persons. That is, the being of God is present in three simultaneous personal manifestations within the Bible.

(God the Father never appears in bodily form. When God appeared and was seen it was always the being who became Jesus.)

Now, you quoted Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of host; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." The word "Redeemer" in the verse is referring to God Himself. This is how the Jews would understand the word in it's immediate context.

( I don`t know about the "Jews". I said the information was Messianic, They are a Jewish body of believers in Jesus. Very knowledgable group.")

 

[JaumeJ]

Elohim is tshe plural of El, placing an I sound on the end of El, Eli, dmdeans my El.

Elohim means the mighty ones and it was applied to God as well as sto the false gods of the nations. A mightey One could be a very strong person but also God. Elohanu means our God (Mighty One.)

 

[jacob_g]

Although not really scientific, when you morecially break it down, but I understand 3 in 1 as water.... a liquid, solid, gas. (water, ice, evaporation). God well... He is just always God, Yahweh- the father, and as for the Son, Yahweh alway called Ephraim and Israel His son and the Holy Spirit is always referred to in pronouns; therefore it makes since God calls His Messiah Son and the Holy Spirit has His own personhood too. There is only ONE GOD, therefore the only conclusion is somehow they are three in one... I do not get it beyond water, but I do believe Jesus is Messiah my savior so by faith I believe in the trinity.....

Now with that said, I have family that belong to a church that does not believe in the trinity; yet they are saved. They believe Messiah. I do not think trinity is a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[RickStudies]

Now with that said, I have family that belong to a church that does not believe in the trinity; yet they are saved. They believe Messiah. I do not think trinity is a prerequisite for salvation.

It depends on what kind of Oneness believe they have.

1st John 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.