Is believing in the Trinity necessary for salvation? (POLL!)
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Bingo! Also note that at Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "And his Redeemer" this is not referring to any specific person of the Trinity but just to God. God oftentimes speaks in the third person.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Bingo! Also note that at Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "And his Redeemer" this is not referring to any specific person of the Trinity but just to God. God oftentimes speaks in the third person.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Throughout the Old Testament a distinction is made between God and God in the form of a theopany. The Redeemer is a theopany. Jesus is the theopany.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Not to debate one God, or a trinity, but those that believe in a trinity better be right.
If it is one God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title for God, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus, and Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not 3 persons in one God, but the three relationships God has with His saints designated by titles, Father-Creator, and parent of the saints, Son-God's visible relationship to the saints, Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints, and they teach a trinity they will be accountable.
Also consider this.
The Old Testament says that Adam was made in the image of God, and the New Testament says Adam was made in the figure of Him to come who is Jesus.
The image of God is the image of Christ.
God had the plan to come in the future in flesh before He started creation, and created Adam in that image.
So the let us make man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus and Adam was made in the image of Christ.
So is the let us make man in our image a trinity, or is it God the Father, and the Son, the man Christ Jesus, a prophetic statement to the coming Son of God.
Which Jesus is the beginning of creation, and the firstborn among the creatures, although He was not born until 4000 years later.
Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not names, but name singular, and those are titles not names.
In the Old Testament God said He would reveal a new name to the Jews, and speak to them.
Jesus said to Philip if He has seen Him, he has seen the Father, and the words He speaks are not His own, but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works.
And Jesus said He came in His Father's name.
Which the Son inherited the name from the Father, and the prophet Agur asked what is God's name, and what is His Son's name if you can tell, which means they would share the same name.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans, were all baptized in the name of Jesus.
All we do in word or deed we do all in the name of Jesus, and there is no other name by which we are saved but the name Jesus.
It appears as if the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Jesus, and Jesus created all things, came in flesh, and dwells in the saints.
Jesus is at the right hand of God.
Jesus said all power is given unto Him in heaven and earth.
There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
There is one throne in heaven, and one who sits on it.
Which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
David said the LORD said unto my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.
For the Son must reign until all His enemies are conquered, and when they are conquered the Son shall submit to God, the Father, that God may be all in all.
It appears as if God exalted the man Christ Jesus to sit at His right hand, exercise the throne of power until all His enemies are conquered then the Son shall submit to the Father, stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all.
For the Son will reign until His enemies are conquered being His footstool, then He shall not be at the right hand.
It appears as if the only person we will see in heaven is Jesus which if you have seen Him you have seen the Father.
If people teach a trinity, and there is not one they will be accountable.
It could be when the Bible says one God it means one God.
Something to consider.
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Not to debate one God, or a trinity, but those that believe in a trinity better be right.
If it is one God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title for God, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus, and Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not 3 persons in one God, but the three relationships God has with His saints designated by titles, Father-Creator, and parent of the saints, Son-God's visible relationship to the saints, Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints, and they teach a trinity they will be accountable.
Also consider this.
The Old Testament says that Adam was made in the image of God, and the New Testament says Adam was made in the figure of Him to come who is Jesus.
The image of God is the image of Christ.
God had the plan to come in the future in flesh before He started creation, and created Adam in that image.
So the let us make man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus and Adam was made in the image of Christ.
So is the let us make man in our image a trinity, or is it God the Father, and the Son, the man Christ Jesus, a prophetic statement to the coming Son of God.
Which Jesus is the beginning of creation, and the firstborn among the creatures, although He was not born until 4000 years later.
Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not names, but name singular, and those are titles not names.
In the Old Testament God said He would reveal a new name to the Jews, and speak to them.
Jesus said to Philip if He has seen Him, he has seen the Father, and the words He speaks are not His own, but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works.
And Jesus said He came in His Father's name.
Which the Son inherited the name from the Father, and the prophet Agur asked what is God's name, and what is His Son's name if you can tell, which means they would share the same name.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans, were all baptized in the name of Jesus.
All we do in word or deed we do all in the name of Jesus, and there is no other name by which we are saved but the name Jesus.
It appears as if the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Jesus, and Jesus created all things, came in flesh, and dwells in the saints.
Jesus is at the right hand of God.
Jesus said all power is given unto Him in heaven and earth.
There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
There is one throne in heaven, and one who sits on it.
Which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
David said the LORD said unto my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.
For the Son must reign until all His enemies are conquered, and when they are conquered the Son shall submit to God, the Father, that God may be all in all.
It appears as if God exalted the man Christ Jesus to sit at His right hand, exercise the throne of power until all His enemies are conquered then the Son shall submit to the Father, stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all.
For the Son will reign until His enemies are conquered being His footstool, then He shall not be at the right hand.
It appears as if the only person we will see in heaven is Jesus which if you have seen Him you have seen the Father.
If people teach a trinity, and there is not one they will be accountable.
It could be when the Bible says one God it means one God.
Something to consider.
If people deny the Father and there is One what then?
("These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" Rev 3:14)
Jesus says He is the beginning of the creation, by implication there is something more.
I was specifically referring to Isaiah 44:6. Yes, we know Jesus Christ is our Redeemer and so is the Father. My point is the fact that many people (especially in the cults) think that when they see the word "God" in the Old Testament they automatically say it's God the Father.
So, when you see verses like Isaiah 44:6 or let's say Isaiah 47:4, "Our Redeemer the Lord of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel." And Psalm 19:14, "Let the words of my mouth and the mediation of my heart be acceptable in Thy sight, O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer."
Let me put it to you this way? Where no distinction is made, it is obviously unnecessary to make a distinction. The persons of the Trinity are persons in relation to each other, any one of the persons of the Trinity to us is simply God. In that there is only One God. If God says to us His glory He will not give to another, that is because there is only One God.
For example at Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning "GOD" created the heavens and the earth." Just God as it states. Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surfact of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Here we see the Holy Spirt of God being introduced.
IN HIM,
bluto
The distinctions exist in the original Hebrew. I used to have a Messianic article on the topic.
On Genesis 1:2, God the Father is a Spirit, I don`t believe the verse is about the Holy Spirit.
It was Jesus which is evidence that He "existed" before He existed. It is against the Law to worship anyone but God but when He appeared as an angle of God He accepted worship. Moses was only allowed to see The Fathers backside or he would die and he was hidden in the clef of the rock.
You almost understand but Moses wasn`t looking at the Father.
"18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. "
Think about it.
"8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Some view the LORD God as God but there seems to be a distinction between the LORD, LORD God and God. The LORD is 1 and the LORD God is 2 and 3 but can act together as 1, however, God is 7. As Rev 5:6 indicates there are really 7 spiritual beings that make up who God is "He had seven horns and seven eyes which are the seven spirits of God". These are 7 separate (but can act as one) and unique divine beings that deserve our respect. But the LORD (the God of Israel) is one.
Do you believe God is 7 in one instead of 3 in one? If so is there any other Scripture in addition to Revelation?
Yes, I believe God is 7. Most of the bible when referring to God is really referring to the LORD or the LORD God. Who is the LORD? I would say the LORD is the Lamb of God who came from heaven to earth in the person of Jesus and is a divine being and is part of who God is. Sometimes the LORD and God act separately and sometimes they act together as 1 but when they act as 1 all 7 spirits of God are present along with the Lamb.
Theophany in the OT, to me it`s not hard to understand who this is.
Implied plurality. Genesis 19:24; Amos 4:11; Genesis 21:11-12
The Word of YHWH appears embodied. Gen 15:1; Jer 1:4,9; 1 Sam 3:10, 19
The Name of YHWH appears embodied. Isaiah 30:27
The Angel of the Lord has YHWH’s Name/presence. Exodus 23:20-21; Deuteronomy 4:37; Ex 33:14
The Angel claims YHWH’s actions as his own. Judges 2:1-2; Genesis 31:11-13
The Angel of the Lord is equated with YHWH. Exodus 3:2, 4; Genesis 48:15-16; Judges 6:11f
The Son of Man in Daniel 7. The heavenly Son of Man is distinguished from YHWH but rides the clouds, an action only the LORD does (Psalm 104:3)
Implied plurality. Genesis 19:24; Amos 4:11; Genesis 21:11-12
The Word of YHWH appears embodied. Gen 15:1; Jer 1:4,9; 1 Sam 3:10, 19
The Name of YHWH appears embodied. Isaiah 30:27
The Angel of the Lord has YHWH’s Name/presence. Exodus 23:20-21; Deuteronomy 4:37; Ex 33:14
The Angel claims YHWH’s actions as his own. Judges 2:1-2; Genesis 31:11-13
The Angel of the Lord is equated with YHWH. Exodus 3:2, 4; Genesis 48:15-16; Judges 6:11f
The Son of Man in Daniel 7. The heavenly Son of Man is distinguished from YHWH but rides the clouds, an action only the LORD does (Psalm 104:3)
in Rev 1:8 it is written "I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God" and in Rev 22:13 it says "I am the Alpha & Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning & End". Also, the Alpha & Omega = the Father, the First & Last = the Son and the Beginning & End = the Holy Spirit. We see here that these three beings are all three the "Lord God" so it is the "Lord God" who is 3 in 1 not "God". That being said the Lord God can act as 1 being the "Lord God", 2 separate beings the "Lord" and "God" and/or 3 beings as listed above. But God is 7 beings but they can all act as 1 being.
Just so I have a clear understanding.... Is the 1 (ONE) God or 7 (seven gods that can act as one?
7 divine beings but 1 God. I like to think of them as 7 supreme angels of God. When God acts as a single supreme being all 7 of these beings are present.
I'm feeling like this is becoming a game.... 7 "divine beings" means 7 gods.... The Lord our God is one Lord. How many God(s) do you believe in?
I believe in 1 God who has divided himself up into 7 beings. It doesn't change the fact that there is 1 God just because he divides himself into multiple beings. He can bring himself back together at the right time.
