The Absence of Free Will
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Joseph Parallels Jesus
Gen 37:2A shepherd of his father’s sheep (John 10:11 27–29)
Gen 37:3 His father loved him dearly (Matt. 3:17)
Gen 37:4 Hated by his brothers (John 7:4–5)
Gen 37:13–14 Sent by father to brothers (Heb 2:11)
Gen 37:20 Others plotted to harm them (John 11:53)
Gen 37:23 Robes taken from them (John 19:23–24)
Gen 37:26 Taken to Egypt (Matt. 2:14–15)
Gen 37:28 Sold for the price of a slave (Matt. 26:15)
Gen 39:7 Tempted (Matt. 4:1)
Gen 39:16–18 Falsely accused (Matt. 26:59–60)
Gen 39:20 Bound in chains (Matt. 27:2)
Gen 40:2–3 Placed with two other prisoners, one who was saved and the other lost (Luke 23:32)
Gen 41:41 Exalted after suffering (Phil. 2:9–11)
Gen 41:46 Both 30 years old at the beginning of public recognition (Luke 3:23)
Gen 42:24 45:2, 14, 15, 46:29 Both wept (John 11:35)
Gen 45:1–15 Forgave those who wronged them (Luke 23:34)
Gen 45:7 Saved their nation (Matt. 1:21)
Gen 50:20 What men did to hurt them, God turned to good (1 Cor.2:7–8)
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))
Like I said, though, the high degree of conformity between the shadows and types of the OT with their ultimate fulfillment in the NT cannot be accounted for, without God causing these events to be coordinated. That is one of many reasons why compatibilism is the most reasonable explanation. Attributing such correspondence to random autonomous free will decisions would be insane.
And, like I've said, man has only creaturely free will, always subject to God's sovereignty. I go back to the fish-pond explanation. Man's free will decisions are constrained by his nature, whether fallen or not. He does not have the power of contrary choice. Not even God has the power of contrary choice, by the way..he always chooses in tandem with his nature.
Gen 37:2A shepherd of his father’s sheep (John 10:11 27–29)
Gen 37:3 His father loved him dearly (Matt. 3:17)
Gen 37:4 Hated by his brothers (John 7:4–5)
Gen 37:13–14 Sent by father to brothers (Heb 2:11)
Gen 37:20 Others plotted to harm them (John 11:53)
Gen 37:23 Robes taken from them (John 19:23–24)
Gen 37:26 Taken to Egypt (Matt. 2:14–15)
Gen 37:28 Sold for the price of a slave (Matt. 26:15)
Gen 39:7 Tempted (Matt. 4:1)
Gen 39:16–18 Falsely accused (Matt. 26:59–60)
Gen 39:20 Bound in chains (Matt. 27:2)
Gen 40:2–3 Placed with two other prisoners, one who was saved and the other lost (Luke 23:32)
Gen 41:41 Exalted after suffering (Phil. 2:9–11)
Gen 41:46 Both 30 years old at the beginning of public recognition (Luke 3:23)
Gen 42:24 45:2, 14, 15, 46:29 Both wept (John 11:35)
Gen 45:1–15 Forgave those who wronged them (Luke 23:34)
Gen 45:7 Saved their nation (Matt. 1:21)
Gen 50:20 What men did to hurt them, God turned to good (1 Cor.2:7–8)
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))
Like I said, though, the high degree of conformity between the shadows and types of the OT with their ultimate fulfillment in the NT cannot be accounted for, without God causing these events to be coordinated. That is one of many reasons why compatibilism is the most reasonable explanation. Attributing such correspondence to random autonomous free will decisions would be insane.
And, like I've said, man has only creaturely free will, always subject to God's sovereignty. I go back to the fish-pond explanation. Man's free will decisions are constrained by his nature, whether fallen or not. He does not have the power of contrary choice. Not even God has the power of contrary choice, by the way..he always chooses in tandem with his nature.
Man has creaturely free will. It is "free will" constrained by his fallen nature, if he is unsaved.
That is why Scripture says he is a slave to sin. Read Romans 6, John 6, 8.
Romans 6:6 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
(ESV)
Romans 6:17-18 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
(ESV)
John 6:44 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(ESV)
John 8:31-36 31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
(ESV)
Here's a good article on libertarian free will and the problems with it.
https://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-will.html
That is why Scripture says he is a slave to sin. Read Romans 6, John 6, 8.
Romans 6:6 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
(ESV)
Romans 6:17-18 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
(ESV)
John 6:44 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(ESV)
John 8:31-36 31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
(ESV)
Here's a good article on libertarian free will and the problems with it.
https://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-will.html
Question: "What is libertarian free will?"
Answer: Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to the Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion (InterVarsity Press, 2002), libertarian free will is defined as “in ethics and metaphysics, the view that human beings sometimes can will more than one possibility. According to this view, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.” In the libertarian free will paradigm, the power of contrary choice reigns supreme. Without this ability to choose otherwise, libertarian free will proponents will claim that man cannot be held morally responsible for his actions.
As mentioned earlier, the word “autonomous” is key in understanding libertarian free will. The word basically means “self-government.” It is derived from two Greek words, autos and nomos, which mean “a law unto oneself.” This is libertarian free will in a nutshell. We, as free moral agents, can make our own decisions and are not subject to the will or determination of another. In any given situation, let’s call it X, we can freely choose to do action A. Furthermore, if situation X presents itself again, we can freely choose not to do A (~A).
The opposite of libertarian free will is called determinism, and determinism essentially denies free will altogether—our choices are determined and that’s that. In situation X, I will always choose to do action A, and in situation Y, I will choose to do ~A, etc. Instead of being autonomous beings, mankind is reduced to being automatons—beings who perform programmed responses to certain situations.
The first thing to take into account regarding the biblical position of libertarian free will is what the Bible says about God. The Bible describes God as sovereign, and sovereignty designates control. But what exactly is the sphere of God’s sovereignty? Psalm 24:1 makes it plain: “The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.” What is the sphere of God’s sovereignty? Everything. God spoke the universe, and everything in it, into existence. As Creator, He has sovereignty over His creation. This is the image used in Romans 9 when Paul refers to the potter and his clay.
So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs: “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps” (Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God.
Consider another Old Testament passage: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10). Here again we see a sovereign God declaring to us that He will accomplish all His purposes. The concept of libertarian free will leaves open the possibility that man can freely refuse to do God’s will, yet God says all His purposes will be accomplished.
Man is not a “law unto himself.” Man is a creature in the Creator’s universe, and as such is subject to the will of the Creator. To suggest otherwise is to elevate man beyond his station and to bring God down to the level of the creature. Those who advocate libertarian free will may not come out and say this, but logically speaking, this is the conclusion that must be drawn. Consider a popular evangelistic slogan found in Christian gospel tracts: “God casts his vote for you, Satan casts his vote against you, but you have the deciding vote.” Is this how it works in salvation? Is God just one side of a cosmic struggle with Satan for the souls of men, who must resort to ”campaign tactics” to sway voters to heaven? This view of God is an emasculated God who is desperately hoping mankind utilizes his free will to choose Him. Frankly, this is a somewhat pathetic view of God. If God wills to save someone, that person will be saved because God accomplishes all His purposes.
Now, we must be careful not to swing to the (equally) unbiblical view that God is the divine Puppet Master and we are merely His puppets. This is the view of hard determinism in which man is reduced to an automaton making robotic responses to situations. The Bible presents a third option between hard determinism and libertarian free will, and that is the view called compatibilism, or soft determinism. In this view, man makes real choices and will be held responsible by God for those choices. The choices that man makes emanate from his desires. God grants the creature a certain amount of freedom, but that freedom always operates within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty.
Now by embracing this view, we must avoid two errors. The first is to posit what is called “middle knowledge.” The doctrine of middle knowledge teaches that God created a world out of the infinite number of worlds He had available to Him to create, and God chose that particular world in which free creatures made the very decisions that accomplished His will. The second error to avoid is to think that God is somehow a cosmic manipulator setting up situations so that His creatures freely make the choices that accomplish His will.
There are two keys to understanding human will and how it relates to God’s sovereignty. The first is the fall. Prior to the fall, man could be said to have had a “free” will in that he was free to obey God or disobey God. After the fall, man’s will was corrupted by sin to the point where he fully lost the ability to willingly obey God. This doesn’t mean that man can’t outwardly obey God. Rather, man cannot perform any spiritual good that is acceptable to God or has any salvific merit. The Bible describes man’s will as “dead in transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1) or as “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:17). These phrases describe man as both unable and unwilling to submit to God’s sovereign authority; therefore, when man makes choices according to his desires, we must remember that man’s desires are depraved and corrupted and wholly rebellious toward God.
The second key in harmonizing man’s “free” will with God’s sovereignty is how God accomplishes His desires. When God ordains all things that come to pass (Psalm 33:11; Ephesians 1:11), He not only ordains the ends, but the means as well. God ordains that certain things will happen and He also ordains how they will happen. Human choices are one of the means by which God accomplishes His will. For proof of this point, look no further than the exodus. God tells Moses that He will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that God’s glory in the deliverance of Israel would be manifest through him (Exodus 4:21). However, as the narrative continues, we see that Pharaoh hardens his own heart (Exodus 8:15). God’s will and man’s will converge.
In conclusion, we must try to understand the effort to import libertarian free will into the Scriptures. The reasoning is usually to preserve human autonomy because it is seen as the key to moral responsibility. This is also done to preserve God’s justice. God cannot be seen as just if He would condemn those who cannot choose against their depraved wills. Yet in these attempts to preserve God’s justice and human responsibility, damage is done to the Scriptures. The Bible emphatically affirms human responsibility for sin and God’s justice, but it also clearly rejects libertarian free will. Scripture clearly affirms that 1) God is sovereign over all affairs, including the affairs of man; and 2) man is responsible for his rebellion against a holy God. The fact that we cannot completely harmonize these two biblical truths should not cause us to reject either one. Things seem impossible to us often simply because we do not have the mind of God. It is true that we can’t expect to understand the mind of God perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to believe His Word, to obey Him, to trust Him and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not.
From GotQuestions.org
https://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-will.html
Answer: Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to the Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion (InterVarsity Press, 2002), libertarian free will is defined as “in ethics and metaphysics, the view that human beings sometimes can will more than one possibility. According to this view, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.” In the libertarian free will paradigm, the power of contrary choice reigns supreme. Without this ability to choose otherwise, libertarian free will proponents will claim that man cannot be held morally responsible for his actions.
As mentioned earlier, the word “autonomous” is key in understanding libertarian free will. The word basically means “self-government.” It is derived from two Greek words, autos and nomos, which mean “a law unto oneself.” This is libertarian free will in a nutshell. We, as free moral agents, can make our own decisions and are not subject to the will or determination of another. In any given situation, let’s call it X, we can freely choose to do action A. Furthermore, if situation X presents itself again, we can freely choose not to do A (~A).
The opposite of libertarian free will is called determinism, and determinism essentially denies free will altogether—our choices are determined and that’s that. In situation X, I will always choose to do action A, and in situation Y, I will choose to do ~A, etc. Instead of being autonomous beings, mankind is reduced to being automatons—beings who perform programmed responses to certain situations.
The first thing to take into account regarding the biblical position of libertarian free will is what the Bible says about God. The Bible describes God as sovereign, and sovereignty designates control. But what exactly is the sphere of God’s sovereignty? Psalm 24:1 makes it plain: “The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.” What is the sphere of God’s sovereignty? Everything. God spoke the universe, and everything in it, into existence. As Creator, He has sovereignty over His creation. This is the image used in Romans 9 when Paul refers to the potter and his clay.
So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs: “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps” (Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God.
Consider another Old Testament passage: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10). Here again we see a sovereign God declaring to us that He will accomplish all His purposes. The concept of libertarian free will leaves open the possibility that man can freely refuse to do God’s will, yet God says all His purposes will be accomplished.
Man is not a “law unto himself.” Man is a creature in the Creator’s universe, and as such is subject to the will of the Creator. To suggest otherwise is to elevate man beyond his station and to bring God down to the level of the creature. Those who advocate libertarian free will may not come out and say this, but logically speaking, this is the conclusion that must be drawn. Consider a popular evangelistic slogan found in Christian gospel tracts: “God casts his vote for you, Satan casts his vote against you, but you have the deciding vote.” Is this how it works in salvation? Is God just one side of a cosmic struggle with Satan for the souls of men, who must resort to ”campaign tactics” to sway voters to heaven? This view of God is an emasculated God who is desperately hoping mankind utilizes his free will to choose Him. Frankly, this is a somewhat pathetic view of God. If God wills to save someone, that person will be saved because God accomplishes all His purposes.
Now, we must be careful not to swing to the (equally) unbiblical view that God is the divine Puppet Master and we are merely His puppets. This is the view of hard determinism in which man is reduced to an automaton making robotic responses to situations. The Bible presents a third option between hard determinism and libertarian free will, and that is the view called compatibilism, or soft determinism. In this view, man makes real choices and will be held responsible by God for those choices. The choices that man makes emanate from his desires. God grants the creature a certain amount of freedom, but that freedom always operates within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty.
Now by embracing this view, we must avoid two errors. The first is to posit what is called “middle knowledge.” The doctrine of middle knowledge teaches that God created a world out of the infinite number of worlds He had available to Him to create, and God chose that particular world in which free creatures made the very decisions that accomplished His will. The second error to avoid is to think that God is somehow a cosmic manipulator setting up situations so that His creatures freely make the choices that accomplish His will.
There are two keys to understanding human will and how it relates to God’s sovereignty. The first is the fall. Prior to the fall, man could be said to have had a “free” will in that he was free to obey God or disobey God. After the fall, man’s will was corrupted by sin to the point where he fully lost the ability to willingly obey God. This doesn’t mean that man can’t outwardly obey God. Rather, man cannot perform any spiritual good that is acceptable to God or has any salvific merit. The Bible describes man’s will as “dead in transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1) or as “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:17). These phrases describe man as both unable and unwilling to submit to God’s sovereign authority; therefore, when man makes choices according to his desires, we must remember that man’s desires are depraved and corrupted and wholly rebellious toward God.
The second key in harmonizing man’s “free” will with God’s sovereignty is how God accomplishes His desires. When God ordains all things that come to pass (Psalm 33:11; Ephesians 1:11), He not only ordains the ends, but the means as well. God ordains that certain things will happen and He also ordains how they will happen. Human choices are one of the means by which God accomplishes His will. For proof of this point, look no further than the exodus. God tells Moses that He will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that God’s glory in the deliverance of Israel would be manifest through him (Exodus 4:21). However, as the narrative continues, we see that Pharaoh hardens his own heart (Exodus 8:15). God’s will and man’s will converge.
In conclusion, we must try to understand the effort to import libertarian free will into the Scriptures. The reasoning is usually to preserve human autonomy because it is seen as the key to moral responsibility. This is also done to preserve God’s justice. God cannot be seen as just if He would condemn those who cannot choose against their depraved wills. Yet in these attempts to preserve God’s justice and human responsibility, damage is done to the Scriptures. The Bible emphatically affirms human responsibility for sin and God’s justice, but it also clearly rejects libertarian free will. Scripture clearly affirms that 1) God is sovereign over all affairs, including the affairs of man; and 2) man is responsible for his rebellion against a holy God. The fact that we cannot completely harmonize these two biblical truths should not cause us to reject either one. Things seem impossible to us often simply because we do not have the mind of God. It is true that we can’t expect to understand the mind of God perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to believe His Word, to obey Him, to trust Him and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not.
From GotQuestions.org
https://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-will.html
As I have mentioned, libertarian free will is the type of teaching that Jesse Morrell and similar Pelagian street preachers hold. There have been various other individuals on this forum who have held this view, including skinski7.
Often denial of original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and sinless perfectionism accompanies their claims.
Often denial of original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and sinless perfectionism accompanies their claims.
Great assumptions without investigation. You are on the line of committing the red herring fallacy by trying to divert attention away from the subject.
But let's see what exactly do you mean because not everyone defines words or beliefs the same.
Dont know of any street preachers but please define original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and sinless perfectionism.
But let's see what exactly do you mean because not everyone defines words or beliefs the same.
Dont know of any street preachers but please define original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and sinless perfectionism.
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Great post. 
I wonder how many people were led to be frightened as new Christians or those seeking after Christ by the reading of the Book of Romans chapter 8 and verse 29? "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
To read it in Fundamentalist terms it would appear to tell us God knew and predetermined whom He would save so as to become Christ like.
This is what FGC argues.
If Calvin's TULIP principle is correct then the T, Total Depravity, would mean that the person being totally depraved and a sinner incapable of good, then that same person would be incapable of remorse or repentance.
Furthermore, to believe God predestined only an elect few to come into His Kingdom as the Chosen, we would then notice that ideology can never speak of our faith or the fact that we would need come to believe in Christ and that then being the reason the Father predetermined those whom He would save. God believed in those chosen few. There is no scripture that would qualify to be added to that TULIP formula that would in turn report those predetermined by a greater power are expected to believe in Christ .
This is why Calvinism fails. It makes God out to be two sided. One side is not even benevolent when that side as creator of all things predestined all the world's events with the foreknowledge no matter how many people are born , there would be only those select number He would save from what He predestined as the fate of those not saved.
And in that sense, it would mean He predestined the fate of those whom he would not know as His elect and as such having foreknowledge, not only created Hell to receive them at the end of days, but knew precisely whom would enter that eternity.
What if the truth is, God can be nothing but omniscient being all that exist is His creation. And yet the Elect, for centuries, has been misunderstood? And what it really intends to report, if scriptures are read as God intends, is that when we are referred to as the Elect of God it is because, picture political election process here to get the picture, we chose Him because His spirit within us, as it exists in all He has created, as we're told in the Book of Psalms chapter 33, compels our hungry spirit tired of this sinful world's machinations seeks the light? His light.
This then would make God not a sadistic puppetmaster as Calvin imagined Him to be. But rather, comports with an all knowing Creator who sent Himself as His only begotten son into this world so that all who believe in Him should not perish in their sins but rather receive His free gift of irrevocable grace and have immortal life.
I wonder how many people were led to be frightened as new Christians or those seeking after Christ by the reading of the Book of Romans chapter 8 and verse 29? "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
To read it in Fundamentalist terms it would appear to tell us God knew and predetermined whom He would save so as to become Christ like.
This is what FGC argues.
If Calvin's TULIP principle is correct then the T, Total Depravity, would mean that the person being totally depraved and a sinner incapable of good, then that same person would be incapable of remorse or repentance.
Furthermore, to believe God predestined only an elect few to come into His Kingdom as the Chosen, we would then notice that ideology can never speak of our faith or the fact that we would need come to believe in Christ and that then being the reason the Father predetermined those whom He would save. God believed in those chosen few. There is no scripture that would qualify to be added to that TULIP formula that would in turn report those predetermined by a greater power are expected to believe in Christ .
This is why Calvinism fails. It makes God out to be two sided. One side is not even benevolent when that side as creator of all things predestined all the world's events with the foreknowledge no matter how many people are born , there would be only those select number He would save from what He predestined as the fate of those not saved.
And in that sense, it would mean He predestined the fate of those whom he would not know as His elect and as such having foreknowledge, not only created Hell to receive them at the end of days, but knew precisely whom would enter that eternity.
What if the truth is, God can be nothing but omniscient being all that exist is His creation. And yet the Elect, for centuries, has been misunderstood? And what it really intends to report, if scriptures are read as God intends, is that when we are referred to as the Elect of God it is because, picture political election process here to get the picture, we chose Him because His spirit within us, as it exists in all He has created, as we're told in the Book of Psalms chapter 33, compels our hungry spirit tired of this sinful world's machinations seeks the light? His light.
This then would make God not a sadistic puppetmaster as Calvin imagined Him to be. But rather, comports with an all knowing Creator who sent Himself as His only begotten son into this world so that all who believe in Him should not perish in their sins but rather receive His free gift of irrevocable grace and have immortal life.
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If you are without free will at any point then yes you are like a puppet.
I am sure my grammar was bad. I use a phone that auto corrects everything and skips words or changes words. I could proof read but this isnt a published article or being graded. So, as long as you get my point that is good enough for me.
I am sure my grammar was bad. I use a phone that auto corrects everything and skips words or changes words. I could proof read but this isnt a published article or being graded. So, as long as you get my point that is good enough for me.
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So does gods sovereignty go into mans sins also. Compatibilism isnt any different really than determinism. It is just subtracting a few actions to free will but ultimately God is still controlling the human. Contradicting. It is basically saying we see the illusion of free will but we really dont have ultimate free will.
The lord directing your steps is different than determining your steps. To direct is guide. Not force. The Greek word fits to direct.
Nothing in libertarian free will says that God isnt sovereign or not in control of the world. God could control us but that isnt genuine love and if God controls us then sin and evil wouldn't exist but it does therefore God gives us free will to choose. But I know your view allows free will to extent but only the elect doesn't. Because pre election gives the answer to the sin problem. That belief holds that God chose a group to be saved before time and all others are damned to Hell and this is why evil exists. Which makes God the author of evil.
Romans 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
God wants all people to be saved but obviously we know that not all people are saved so how does this verse fit the author's sovereignty argument? It fails.
A slave to sin by the authors interpretation contradicts Moses
Deuteronomy 30:19
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Moses believed his people had a choice.
Romans 6:20
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right.
So the understanding of slave isnt accurate to what you believe. Here are some scriptures in context.
Romans 6:16
16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.
Lots of choice going on. And finally Paul admits he is just using slavery to help them understand that now they must give themselves to righteous living.
Romans 6:19
19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.
Also the American concept of slave wasn't the same as Biblical slavery. Biblical slavery is more of indentured servitude which is someone choosing to go into slavery.
Still the author thinks this somehow limits Gods sovereignty or will as if God isn't powerful enough to work in the midst of human free will.
Sorry but your link fails to harmonize scripture or even simple understanding of scripture.
The lord directing your steps is different than determining your steps. To direct is guide. Not force. The Greek word fits to direct.
Nothing in libertarian free will says that God isnt sovereign or not in control of the world. God could control us but that isnt genuine love and if God controls us then sin and evil wouldn't exist but it does therefore God gives us free will to choose. But I know your view allows free will to extent but only the elect doesn't. Because pre election gives the answer to the sin problem. That belief holds that God chose a group to be saved before time and all others are damned to Hell and this is why evil exists. Which makes God the author of evil.
Romans 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
God wants all people to be saved but obviously we know that not all people are saved so how does this verse fit the author's sovereignty argument? It fails.
A slave to sin by the authors interpretation contradicts Moses
Deuteronomy 30:19
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Moses believed his people had a choice.
Romans 6:20
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right.
So the understanding of slave isnt accurate to what you believe. Here are some scriptures in context.
Romans 6:16
16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.
Lots of choice going on. And finally Paul admits he is just using slavery to help them understand that now they must give themselves to righteous living.
Romans 6:19
19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.
Also the American concept of slave wasn't the same as Biblical slavery. Biblical slavery is more of indentured servitude which is someone choosing to go into slavery.
Still the author thinks this somehow limits Gods sovereignty or will as if God isn't powerful enough to work in the midst of human free will.
Sorry but your link fails to harmonize scripture or even simple understanding of scripture.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs 16:9
I wanted to address your statement there.
The Book of Proverbs chapter 16 and verse 9 uses the phrases that indicate God directs, establishes, determines, our steps.
In that verse depending upon which Bible version , mans interpretation, of the Bible one chooses to study, the arguments for and against humans having total free will can be argued.
KJ21
A man’s heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps.
ASV
A man’s heart deviseth his way; But Jehovah directeth his steps.
AMP
A man’s mind plans his way [as he journeys through life], But the Lord directs his steps and establishes them.
AMPC
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure.
BRG
A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
CSB
A person’s heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.
CEB
People plan their path, but the Lord secures their steps.
CJB
A person may plan his path, but Adonai directs his steps.
CEV
We make our own plans, but the Lord decides where we will go.
DARBY
The heart of man deviseth his way, but Jehovah directeth his steps.
DRA
The heart of man disposeth his way: but the Lord must direct his steps.
ERV
People can plan what they want to do, but it is the Lord who guides their steps.
ESV
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
ESVUK
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
EXB
·People may make plans in their minds [L Human hearts plan their path], but the Lord ·decides what they will do [L establishes their step].
GNV
The heart of man purposeth his way: but the Lord doth direct his steps.
GW
A person may plan his own journey, but the Lord directs his steps.
GNT
You may make your plans, but God directs your actions.
HCSB
A man’s heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.
ICB
A person may think up plans. But the Lord decides what he will do.
ISV
A person plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
JUB
¶ The heart of man devises his way, but the LORD directs his steps.
KJV
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
AKJV
A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
LEB
The mind of a person will plan his ways, and Yahweh will direct his steps.
TLB
We should make plans—counting on God to direct us.
MSG
We plan the way we want to live, but only God makes us able to live it.
MEV
A man’s heart devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
NOG
A person may plan his own journey, but Yahweh directs his steps.
NABRE
The human heart plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
NASB
The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.
NCV
People may make plans in their minds, but the Lord decides what they will do.
NET
A person plans his course, but the Lord directs his steps.
NIRV
In their hearts human beings plan their lives. But the Lord decides where their steps will take them.
NIV
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.
NIVUK
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.
NKJV
A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.
NLV
The mind of a man plans his way, but the Lord shows him what to do.
NLT
We can make our plans, but the Lord determines our steps.
NRSV
The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
NRSVA
The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
NRSVACE
The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
NRSVCE
The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
OJB
The lev adam plans his derech, but Hashem directeth his steps.
TPT
Within your heart you can make plans for your future, but the Lord chooses the steps you take to get there.
RSV
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
RSVCE
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
TLV
The heart of man plans his course, but Adonai directs his steps.
VOICE
People do their best making plans for their lives, but the Eternal guides each step.
WEB
A man’s heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps.
WYC
The heart of a man shall dispose his way; but it pertaineth to the Lord to (ad)dress his steps. (A person’s heart shall ordain his way; but it pertaineth to the Lord to direct his steps.)
YLT
The heart of man deviseth his way, And Jehovah establisheth his step.
I wanted to address your statement there.
The Book of Proverbs chapter 16 and verse 9 uses the phrases that indicate God directs, establishes, determines, our steps.
In that verse depending upon which Bible version , mans interpretation, of the Bible one chooses to study, the arguments for and against humans having total free will can be argued.
KJ21
A man’s heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps.
ASV
A man’s heart deviseth his way; But Jehovah directeth his steps.
AMP
A man’s mind plans his way [as he journeys through life], But the Lord directs his steps and establishes them.
AMPC
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure.
BRG
A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
CSB
A person’s heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.
CEB
People plan their path, but the Lord secures their steps.
CJB
A person may plan his path, but Adonai directs his steps.
CEV
We make our own plans, but the Lord decides where we will go.
DARBY
The heart of man deviseth his way, but Jehovah directeth his steps.
DRA
The heart of man disposeth his way: but the Lord must direct his steps.
ERV
People can plan what they want to do, but it is the Lord who guides their steps.
ESV
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
ESVUK
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
EXB
·People may make plans in their minds [L Human hearts plan their path], but the Lord ·decides what they will do [L establishes their step].
GNV
The heart of man purposeth his way: but the Lord doth direct his steps.
GW
A person may plan his own journey, but the Lord directs his steps.
GNT
You may make your plans, but God directs your actions.
HCSB
A man’s heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.
ICB
A person may think up plans. But the Lord decides what he will do.
ISV
A person plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
JUB
¶ The heart of man devises his way, but the LORD directs his steps.
KJV
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
AKJV
A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
LEB
The mind of a person will plan his ways, and Yahweh will direct his steps.
TLB
We should make plans—counting on God to direct us.
MSG
We plan the way we want to live, but only God makes us able to live it.
MEV
A man’s heart devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
NOG
A person may plan his own journey, but Yahweh directs his steps.
NABRE
The human heart plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
NASB
The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.
NCV
People may make plans in their minds, but the Lord decides what they will do.
NET
A person plans his course, but the Lord directs his steps.
NIRV
In their hearts human beings plan their lives. But the Lord decides where their steps will take them.
NIV
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.
NIVUK
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.
NKJV
A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.
NLV
The mind of a man plans his way, but the Lord shows him what to do.
NLT
We can make our plans, but the Lord determines our steps.
NRSV
The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
NRSVA
The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
NRSVACE
The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
NRSVCE
The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps.
OJB
The lev adam plans his derech, but Hashem directeth his steps.
TPT
Within your heart you can make plans for your future, but the Lord chooses the steps you take to get there.
RSV
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
RSVCE
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
TLV
The heart of man plans his course, but Adonai directs his steps.
VOICE
People do their best making plans for their lives, but the Eternal guides each step.
WEB
A man’s heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps.
WYC
The heart of a man shall dispose his way; but it pertaineth to the Lord to (ad)dress his steps. (A person’s heart shall ordain his way; but it pertaineth to the Lord to direct his steps.)
YLT
The heart of man deviseth his way, And Jehovah establisheth his step.
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It is Monergism that teaches Irresistible Grace. Which means the work of the Holy Spirit in humans is to achieve the individual's salvation regardless of that person's cooperation.
I think that is akin to the puppet master God identity mentioned prior.
Explained as an excerpt below far better than I appear able to do.
44. How can God be sovereign and man still be free?
Responsibility and voluntary choice are not the same thing as free will. We affirm that man is indeed responsible for the choices he makes, yet we deny that the Bible teaches that man has a free will since it is no where taught in the pages of Scripture. The Bible teaches, rather, that God ordains all things that come to pass (Eph 1:11) and it also teaches that man is culpable for his choices (Ezek 18:20, Matt 12:37, John 9:41). Since the Scripture is our ultimate authority and highest presuppsosition, the multitude of clear scriptural declarations on this matter outweigh all unaided human logic. We find that almost always the objections to God's meticulous providence over all things are moral and philosophical rather than exegetical. This means we must strive to consciously affirm what the Scripture declares over all our finite understanding and sinful inner drive for independence.
In order to understand this better theologians have come up with the term "compatibilism" to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11).
In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men willfully and voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This act of evil is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, and these men are thus responsible for the act, according to these Texts. Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20). God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless. In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.
We should be clear that NEITHER compatibilism nor hard determinism affirms that any man has a free will. Those who believe man has a free will are not compatibilists, but should, rather, be called "inconsistent".
There is more to read at the source linked at the header above, 4. How God be sovereign and man still be free?
Just a thought interjected here. With respect to those who say they not rely on man's interpretation but rather on the leading of the Holy Spirit so as to interpret scripture, with all the doctrinal formula's within the realm of Christianity, all the denominations, all the versions , translations, of the Bible, isn't every part of that what can be simply referred to as man's interpretations?
Man interprets the Bible this way and therefore it is determined to be a denominational doctrine best described as Methodist. Or, Calvinist, or Presbyterian, or....
And so many denominations named after their founding patriarch too like Calvinism=John Calvin, Methodism=John Wesley.
I think that is akin to the puppet master God identity mentioned prior.
Explained as an excerpt below far better than I appear able to do.
44. How can God be sovereign and man still be free?
Responsibility and voluntary choice are not the same thing as free will. We affirm that man is indeed responsible for the choices he makes, yet we deny that the Bible teaches that man has a free will since it is no where taught in the pages of Scripture. The Bible teaches, rather, that God ordains all things that come to pass (Eph 1:11) and it also teaches that man is culpable for his choices (Ezek 18:20, Matt 12:37, John 9:41). Since the Scripture is our ultimate authority and highest presuppsosition, the multitude of clear scriptural declarations on this matter outweigh all unaided human logic. We find that almost always the objections to God's meticulous providence over all things are moral and philosophical rather than exegetical. This means we must strive to consciously affirm what the Scripture declares over all our finite understanding and sinful inner drive for independence.
In order to understand this better theologians have come up with the term "compatibilism" to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11).
In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men willfully and voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This act of evil is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, and these men are thus responsible for the act, according to these Texts. Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20). God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless. In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.
We should be clear that NEITHER compatibilism nor hard determinism affirms that any man has a free will. Those who believe man has a free will are not compatibilists, but should, rather, be called "inconsistent".
There is more to read at the source linked at the header above, 4. How God be sovereign and man still be free?
Just a thought interjected here. With respect to those who say they not rely on man's interpretation but rather on the leading of the Holy Spirit so as to interpret scripture, with all the doctrinal formula's within the realm of Christianity, all the denominations, all the versions , translations, of the Bible, isn't every part of that what can be simply referred to as man's interpretations?
Man interprets the Bible this way and therefore it is determined to be a denominational doctrine best described as Methodist. Or, Calvinist, or Presbyterian, or....
And so many denominations named after their founding patriarch too like Calvinism=John Calvin, Methodism=John Wesley.
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Logical conclusion. He also had his own theory of the Logos.
By examining the tongue of the patient, physicians find out the diseases of the body, and philosophers the diseases of the mind."
-- Justin Martyr
By examining the tongue of the patient, physicians find out the diseases of the body, and philosophers the diseases of the mind."
-- Justin Martyr
i like to read the church fathers even if they say sometimes things that look roman catholic or philosophy to me. but i like them in many cases.
but i think free will has real life applications too of how you behave like say this:
you know hindus have caste system right and some hindus believe in it. if you are born poor in lower caste its destiny predestined you cant move up or down so you have just live it. if they belived in free will they could climb up from there better in my opinion and its not stuck in predestination
but i think free will has real life applications too of how you behave like say this:
you know hindus have caste system right and some hindus believe in it. if you are born poor in lower caste its destiny predestined you cant move up or down so you have just live it. if they belived in free will they could climb up from there better in my opinion and its not stuck in predestination
From what I have heard people say about John Calvin, I believe that his thinking is wrong, in the fact, that I have heard that he believes that everything is predestined by God and man has no free will. I believe the scriptures teach that God has given all mankind the free will to choose as he pleases in things that affect his life as he lives here in this world, but God does not give man a choice in his eternal salvation, otherwise, eternal salvation would not be "by the grace of God".
Concerning your question about 1 Tim 2:3-4, How does this verse fit the sovereignty argument? This verse says that God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Salvation, according to Greek is "a deliverance". There is a deliverance that the born again child of God can receive by obtaining the full knowledge of the gospel that explains the finished work of Christ. The "all men" in this verse, in order to harmonize with other scriptures, means "all elect men". Another scripture dealing with this same deliverance is Romans 10:1-2-3, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel (God changed Jacob's name, who is representative of God's elect, to be called Israel, Gen 33:32) is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they HAVE A ZEAL OF GOD, (evidence of being born again of the Holy Spirit) but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (by the works of the law) and have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness (the knowledge of Christ's finished work on the cross) of God. This same situation fits many of the people on this forum who think they have something to do to get eternal life.
Great post.
I wonder how many people were led to be frightened as new Christians or those seeking after Christ by the reading of the Book of Romans chapter 8 and verse 29? "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
To read it in Fundamentalist terms it would appear to tell us God knew and predetermined whom He would save so as to become Christ like.
This is what FGC argues.
If Calvin's TULIP principle is correct then the T, Total Depravity, would mean that the person being totally depraved and a sinner incapable of good, then that same person would be incapable of remorse or repentance.
Furthermore, to believe God predestined only an elect few to come into His Kingdom as the Chosen, we would then notice that ideology can never speak of our faith or the fact that we would need come to believe in Christ and that then being the reason the Father predetermined those whom He would save. God believed in those chosen few. There is no scripture that would qualify to be added to that TULIP formula that would in turn report those predetermined by a greater power are expected to believe in Christ .
This is why Calvinism fails. It makes God out to be two sided. One side is not even benevolent when that side as creator of all things predestined all the world's events with the foreknowledge no matter how many people are born , there would be only those select number He would save from what He predestined as the fate of those not saved.
And in that sense, it would mean He predestined the fate of those whom he would not know as His elect and as such having foreknowledge, not only created Hell to receive them at the end of days, but knew precisely whom would enter that eternity.
What if the truth is, God can be nothing but omniscient being all that exist is His creation. And yet the Elect, for centuries, has been misunderstood? And what it really intends to report, if scriptures are read as God intends, is that when we are referred to as the Elect of God it is because, picture political election process here to get the picture, we chose Him because His spirit within us, as it exists in all He has created, as we're told in the Book of Psalms chapter 33, compels our hungry spirit tired of this sinful world's machinations seeks the light? His light.
This then would make God not a sadistic puppetmaster as Calvin imagined Him to be. But rather, comports with an all knowing Creator who sent Himself as His only begotten son into this world so that all who believe in Him should not perish in their sins but rather receive His free gift of irrevocable grace and have immortal life.
I wonder how many people were led to be frightened as new Christians or those seeking after Christ by the reading of the Book of Romans chapter 8 and verse 29? "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
To read it in Fundamentalist terms it would appear to tell us God knew and predetermined whom He would save so as to become Christ like.
This is what FGC argues.
If Calvin's TULIP principle is correct then the T, Total Depravity, would mean that the person being totally depraved and a sinner incapable of good, then that same person would be incapable of remorse or repentance.
Furthermore, to believe God predestined only an elect few to come into His Kingdom as the Chosen, we would then notice that ideology can never speak of our faith or the fact that we would need come to believe in Christ and that then being the reason the Father predetermined those whom He would save. God believed in those chosen few. There is no scripture that would qualify to be added to that TULIP formula that would in turn report those predetermined by a greater power are expected to believe in Christ .
This is why Calvinism fails. It makes God out to be two sided. One side is not even benevolent when that side as creator of all things predestined all the world's events with the foreknowledge no matter how many people are born , there would be only those select number He would save from what He predestined as the fate of those not saved.
And in that sense, it would mean He predestined the fate of those whom he would not know as His elect and as such having foreknowledge, not only created Hell to receive them at the end of days, but knew precisely whom would enter that eternity.
What if the truth is, God can be nothing but omniscient being all that exist is His creation. And yet the Elect, for centuries, has been misunderstood? And what it really intends to report, if scriptures are read as God intends, is that when we are referred to as the Elect of God it is because, picture political election process here to get the picture, we chose Him because His spirit within us, as it exists in all He has created, as we're told in the Book of Psalms chapter 33, compels our hungry spirit tired of this sinful world's machinations seeks the light? His light.
This then would make God not a sadistic puppetmaster as Calvin imagined Him to be. But rather, comports with an all knowing Creator who sent Himself as His only begotten son into this world so that all who believe in Him should not perish in their sins but rather receive His free gift of irrevocable grace and have immortal life.