3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

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Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#41
So, at what point in that sequence did they become a believer, according to your theology?
THE GOSPEL CONTINUED TO BE PREACHED
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


THE HEARERS BECAME BELIEVERS AT THIS POINT -- THEY GLADLY RECEIVED HIS WORD
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

We should note that in the book of Acts there was no delay between believing and being baptized. Hence they are very closely connected. But that has also led to the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#42
I hope you'll understand when I say, your remarks there are unwarranted for this thread. If you have a personal issue with anyone who has posted in this particular thread please do not seek to make a war of it here. Thank you for your understanding and agreement.
The claim is being made that Reformed individuals are ungracious. My position is that those making such claims need to examine the beam in their own eye before they try to remove a speck in someone else's.

In regards to your request, are you a moderator? If so, then I will either follow your request or stop posting on the thread. If you're not a moderator, I'm not sure why you issued the request.
 

Lightskin

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Aug 16, 2019
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#43
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.” John Calvin
I hope I’m allowed the opportunity to have a little “talk” with calvin.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#44
i never called it demonic btw thats false. i do agree that reformed theology is evil if taken to its conclusion that all evil falls on God. no matter amount of talk about secondary causes human sin and all that, its all caused by God cause God made them totally depraved in curse, made no way out unless He regenerates and doesnt even give chance to all. reformed gospel is horrible news to most people. hey john did u hear the gospel yet? odds are stacked against u, you most likely cant repent and believe and arent elect. enjoy hell
1. God does allow all evil. He could have prevented it by failing to create any being. Therefore, he did allow it, with a purpose that
is ultimately good.
2. Mankind rebelled against God, and man is radically corrupted due to the Fall. It was man's free will decision though ( and this
decision was truly a free will decision).
3. This is accurate. God regenerates those who are saved, and is the author and finisher of their salvation.
4. All mankind would go to eternal punishment if God did not save some. Salvation is his to give, and he isn't required to show
mercy to everyone. Salvation isn't an entitlement.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#45
I hope I’m allowed the opportunity to have a little “talk” with calvin.
What did he say that you disagree with? That no one deserves salvation, but God extends it to some?

Do you think God is required to extend salvation to everyone?
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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#46
I hope I’m allowed the opportunity to have a little “talk” with calvin.
i have never seen a happy friendly calvinist yet. its almost scary how similar they act. i can easily spot one just from how they write and the condescending way of talking down to people. i am guilty of it as well, but just because that attitude disgusts me
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#47
THE GOSPEL CONTINUED TO BE PREACHED
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

THE HEARERS BECAME BELIEVERS AT THIS POINT -- THEY GLADLY RECEIVED HIS WORD
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

We should note that in the book of Acts there was no delay between believing and being baptized. Hence they are very closely connected. But that has also led to the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
I don't consider Acts to be normative. For instance, I don't think there is a separation between faith, repentance, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit and regeneration. Logically regeneration precedes faith and repentance, because regeneration causes it, but temporally it could all happen in the same moment. All I know is that a hard, unregenerate heart cannot produce faith and repentance. It takes a heart of flesh.

You'd never convince me of decisional regeneration.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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#48
1. God does allow all evil. He could have prevented it by failing to create any being. Therefore, he did allow it, with a purpose that
is ultimately good.
2. Mankind rebelled against God, and man is radically corrupted due to the Fall. It was man's free will decision though ( and this
decision was truly a free will decision).
3. This is accurate. God regenerates those who are saved, and is the author and finisher of their salvation.
4. All mankind would go to eternal punishment if God did not save some. Salvation is his to give, and he isn't required to show
mercy to everyone. Salvation isn't an entitlement.
quite a gift. first God curses you with total depravity and inability and then is gracious enough to save you from the total depravity he cursed you with. great... God sets the house on fire and calls the fire department. oh what grace. thats not grace not even logical
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#49
i have never seen a happy friendly calvinist yet. its almost scary how similar they act. i can easily spot one just from how they write and the condescending way of talking down to people. i am guilty of it as well, but just because that attitude disgusts me
How many Reformed people do you know in real life? Additionally, are you taking the beam out of your own eye before you take the speck out of theirs?
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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#50
How many Reformed people do you know in real life? Additionally, are you taking the beam out of your own eye before you take the speck out of theirs?
yes i am 100% didnt u see i typed ' i am guilty of it as well ' ?
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#51
quite a gift. first God curses you with total depravity and inability and then is gracious enough to save you from the total depravity he cursed you with. great... God sets your house on fire and calls the fire department. oh what grace.
Why do you blame God for what Adam did?

Adam is the one who rebelled against God. He was representing all of mankind in his decision.

I think that's part of the communication problem here. It's a failure to recognize the narrative of Scripture, which includes Creation, Fall, Rescue, and Restoration.

It's common that Christians don't consider how serious the Fall was, and the disastrous repercussions it had upon mankind.

Read Romans 5.
 

Whispered

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#52
No, it does not. In fact, Reformed theology teaches that regeneration must occur prior to faith and repentance. That is the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. And, the Gospel accompanies conversion.

So, I am not sure where you are getting this from. Unless you are claiming that the specific point of total depravity doesn't include those elements. You can't look at just one spoke on a wheel and claim the one spoke is the whole wheel.

These are the kinds of nonsense claims being made here.
However, your steps as you describe them that lead or accompanies conversion are not Biblical. The terms are found in the Bible, the process you describe however is not.

Total Depravity, the T in the TULIP formula, teaches that humans are entirely devoid of the capacity to receive the righteous teachings and understand the words of God. That their sin , inherited from Adam, separates them from God and makes them totally immoral.
That in itself is not in keeping with the Book of Ezekiel chapter 18. Verse 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel says we do not inherit the sins of our fathers, including Adam who was the first human 'father' who sinned.
Total Depravity said to be the condition of all men must then be removed by God through regeneration before they can have the faith God predestined them to have in order to be His Elect.
However, the illogical clause there is, when all people are Totally Depraved at first that would necessarily include the Elect of God. Those one's then would not need to be regenerated so as to gain faith in God when God had so much faith in that exclusive number of persons as to determine they would receive His grace without their cooperation in that process. This is called Irresistible Grace. The I in TULIP.
God's Irresistible Grace then makes unnecessary regeneration of the Totally Depraved. Because they do not need to have Faith when God has bestowed his Irresistible Grace upon those whom He chose to receive His grace and prior to the world's creation.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#53
yes i am 100% didnt u see i typed ' i am guilty of it as well ' ?
Most Reformed people I know are very gracious actually, especially in real life.

I have gotten tired of people online attacking Reformed theology so I have responded like them with rude comments.

If a dog is beaten with a stick enough times, he starts biting. As well, I am 56 years old and I really don't care what online people think about me. If they want to misrepresent and degrade my convictions, I will show them I'm not one of the timid Christians that can be bullied. And, that is what is going on in the forums...an attempt to browbeat and bully others who think differently on peripheral issues.

God may deal with me on my rude comments...hard to say. At any rate, I can see that others who criticize me for employing them are doing the same things themselves, only often not taking ownership for their rudeness.

At least you admitted it.
 

Whispered

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#54
Copied with permission from original publisher Apologetics Press 2017

Flaws In Calvinism


by Dave Miller, Ph.D.


John Calvin (1509-1564) was a French theologian during the Protestant Reformation whose system of Christian theology, primarily expressed in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, has exerted tremendous influence throughout the Christian world for nearly five centuries. The central tenets of his thinking have been summarized under the acrostic TULIP.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.​
Bible Responses

Ezekiel 18:19-23—“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself…. ‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord GOD, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live?’”


Ezekiel 28:15—“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”


Psalm 106:37-38—“They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters.”


Zechariah 12:1—“Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”


Matthew 18:2-3—“Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.’”


Matthew 19:14—“But Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’”


Romans 7:9—“I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.”


Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.
Bible Responses

Luke 13:3—“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”


John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”


John 8:24—“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


Acts 10:34-35—“Then Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.’”

Romans 2:5-11—“God…will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”


1 Peter 1:17—“And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”

Revelation 22:17—“Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”
 

Whispered

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#55
Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Bible Responses

1 Timothy 2:3-4—“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”


1 Timothy 2:5-6—“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all.”


Titus 2:11-12—“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.”


1 John 2:2—“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”


John 3:17—“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”


2 Peter 3:9—“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”


Acts 10:34—“God shows no partiality.”


Romans 2:11—“For there is no partiality with God.”

Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Bible Responses

Deuteronomy 30:19—“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life.”


Joshua 24:15—“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”


Luke 7:30—“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”


John 12:42-43—“Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”


Acts 7:51—“You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”


Acts 13:46—“Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.’”

Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
Bible Responses

Galatians 5:4—“You [Christians] have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”


2 Peter 2:20-22—“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”


Hebrews 4:11—“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”


Hebrews 6:4-6—“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”


Hebrews 10:38-39—“‘Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”


James 5:19-20—“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”


Revelation 2:5—“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.”


Revelation 3:5—“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”


Revelation 22:19—“If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.”
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#56
However, your steps as you describe them that lead or accompanies conversion are not Biblical. The terms are found in the Bible, the process you describe however is not.

Total Depravity, the T in the TULIP formula, teaches that humans are entirely devoid of the capacity to receive the righteous teachings and understand the words of God. That their sin , inherited from Adam, separates them from God and makes them totally immoral.
That in itself is not in keeping with the Book of Ezekiel chapter 18. Verse 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel says we do not inherit the sins of our fathers, including Adam who was the first human 'father' who sinned.
Total Depravity said to be the condition of all men must then be removed by God through regeneration before they can have the faith God predestined them to have in order to be His Elect.
However, the illogical clause there is, when all people are Totally Depraved at first that would necessarily include the Elect of God. Those one's then would not need to be regenerated so as to gain faith in God when God had so much faith in that exclusive number of persons as to determine they would receive His grace without their cooperation in that process. This is called Irresistible Grace. The I in TULIP.
God's Irresistible Grace then makes unnecessary regeneration of the Totally Depraved. Because they do not need to have Faith when God has bestowed his Irresistible Grace upon those whom He chose to receive His grace and prior to the world's creation.
Ezekiel 18 involves the children of those sent into exile. They were using their parents' sin to excuse their own sinfulness. Their claim was, in essence, we still have to suffer for their sins of our fathers, even if we sin...so why not sin anyways?

God was pointing out that their attitude was wrong on this, and that they would bear the results of their own sins. Notice, though, that these descendants were still in captivity due to their exile, and were still bearing the results of their parents' rebellion against God.

Additionally, Romans 5 clearly teaches that all mankind in Adam bears the results of his sin. One of the results is condemnation. All of mankind in Adam is under condemnation due to their physical birth and association with him. They were made sinners by the one act of Adam (read Romans 5 carefully). Adam's sin is imputed to them. Adam was their federal head and bore the results of his sin, which included spiritual death and condemnation, as well as physical death.

The good news is that those who are born-again are represented by Jesus and his righteous act, and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to them, if they are born again.

Regarding total depravity, the proper phrase to use would be "radical corruption" which means that every part of man's being is radically corrupted due to his sin. He is spiritually dead, and separated from God as a result. Additionally, he has a sin nature that causes him to sin. He is unable to correct his situation. He must be resurrected spiritually, and made alive again, in order to be joined to Jesus and to experience union with God again.

This is the essence of original sin.

Irresistible grace is actually directly related to regeneration. Those who are regenerated are given spiritual life. Their hard, stony, dead hearts are replaced with a heart of flesh. This causes faith and repentance, and they are united with Christ in faith.

Irresistible grace doesn't mean someone is dragged kicking and screaming into salvation. There is a change in nature, and the new nature wants to please and obey God.

To be honest, the decisional regeneration view makes absolutely no sense..how someone with a hard, stony heart can respond in faith, repentance and obedience.

The fact that you don't relate irresistible grace to regeneration betrays that you haven't studied Reformed theology much, because irresistible grace is basically describing regeneration.

That's part of what I'm saying..you guys don't really understand Reformed theology so you can't properly criticize it. It's no wonder it's the typical Reformed claim, because it's true. Individuals who don't even understand the theology are trying to criticize it.

It reminds me of teenagers trying to correct their parents on issues that the teenagers themselves don't fully understand. They have a few scraps of knowledge on a particular topic, and all of a sudden they think they are qualified to criticize their parents' understanding.
 

Whispered

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#57
i never called it demonic btw thats false. i do agree that reformed theology is evil if taken to its conclusion that all evil falls on God. no matter amount of talk about secondary causes human sin and all that, its all caused by God cause God made them totally depraved in curse, made no way out unless He regenerates and doesnt even give chance to all. reformed gospel is horrible news to most people. hey john did u hear the gospel yet? odds are stacked against u, you most likely cant repent and believe and arent elect. enjoy hell
As I see it the TULIP Re-Formed gospel doctrine makes God out to be a megalomaniac and sadist. And through the tactic of re-forming even the context of God's own words.

Those re-formed words tell us, God passed the sin of Adam unto all humankind after the fall so that every human born would be totally depraved in their sinful ways, totally immoral, totally unable to receive God's word or understand it as written. Then from among that entire number of the Totally Depraved, He would re-generate, which translates to, re-create, certain of the human race so that their depravity abate. And this is done for the purpose of allowing those one's who are re-created, regenerated, to hold faith in the God that freed them from the Depravity He had bestowed prior upon them. And this was so that those one's predetermined to be elected, chosen, to receive His grace would, through no act of their own. Which then would preclude the need for them to have faith when the I in the TULIP principle defines God's grace as Irresistible.
Meaning, when someone cannot resist God's gift of grace then their having faith in God is unnecessary. Because God gave His saving grace unto them without their having anything to do with it. Hence, irresistible.
And those ones then are saved from the Hell God created to receive those who perish as the Totally Depraved.

But, and this isn't often considered in these type discussions I don't think, if the Elect of God are that special as to be predestined by God to be saved before there was anything to be saved from, why did God first create those chosen one's to be Totally Depraved, for all that means in the Reformed Doctrine, just like everyone else?

Why would those God found worthy of Salvation, and for whatever reason unknown to us, first be created to be Totally Depraved?
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#58
By the way, folks, notice that Whispered is dumping tons of information into this thread. Obviously I cannot spend all my life responding to the claims, and I'm not going to do it.

They are typical claims against Reformed theology, and Reformed individuals have responses to these claims.

I would suggest reading Five Points of Calvinism Defended and Document by David Steele if you want to understand the topic better. It has tons of Scriptures supporting the position.

https://smile.amazon.com/Five-Point...lvinism+by+david+steele&qid=1570413197&sr=8-1

The fundamental issue, though, is how an unsaved person, with a stony and cold heart, can respond in faith and repentance? What has to happen for this to occur?

The answer is that God needs to give them a new heart.

In the free-will view, their claim is that you must reach a state of faith and repentance WITHOUT this new heart of flesh, and THEN you receive this new heart of flesh.

It is a nonsensical claim. I was raised believing this sort of nonsense, and I realize now how flawed and messed up their view is.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (ESV)

I would be glad to talk to HONEST people one on one about these topics. Feel free to email me if you want.

I have TONS of other Scriptures to support the Reformed position, but I recommend the above book. He explains the background of the Reformed position in fairly easy language.
 

Whispered

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#59
Ezekiel 18 involves the children of those sent into exile. They were using their parents' sin to excuse their own sinfulness. Their claim was, in essence, we still have to suffer for their sins of our fathers, even if we sin...so why not sin anyways?

God was pointing out that their attitude was wrong on this, and that they would bear the results of their own sins. Notice, though, that these descendants were still in captivity due to their exile, and were still bearing the results of their parents' rebellion against God.

Additionally, Romans 5 clearly teaches that all mankind in Adam bears the results of his sin. One of the results is condemnation. All of mankind in Adam is under condemnation due to their physical birth and association with him. They were made sinners by the one act of Adam (read Romans 5 carefully). Adam's sin is imputed to them. Adam was their federal head and bore the results of his sin, which included spiritual death and condemnation, as well as physical death.

The good news is that those who are born-again are represented by Jesus and his righteous act, and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to them, if they are born again.

Regarding total depravity, the proper phrase to use would be "radical corruption" which means that every part of man's being is radically corrupted due to his sin. He is spiritually dead, and separated from God as a result. Additionally, he has a sin nature that causes him to sin. He is unable to correct his situation. He must be resurrected spiritually, and made alive again, in order to be joined to Jesus and to experience union with God again.

This is the essence of original sin.

Irresistible grace is actually directly related to regeneration. Those who are regenerated are given spiritual life. Their hard, stony, dead hearts are replaced with a heart of flesh. This causes faith and repentance, and they are united with Christ in faith.

Irresistible grace doesn't mean someone is dragged kicking and screaming into salvation. There is a change in nature, and the new nature wants to please and obey God.

To be honest, the decisional regeneration view makes absolutely no sense..how someone with a hard, stony heart can respond in faith, repentance and obedience.

The fact that you don't relate irresistible grace to regeneration betrays that you haven't studied Reformed theology much, because irresistible grace is basically describing regeneration.

That's part of what I'm saying..you guys don't really understand Reformed theology so you can't properly criticize it. It's no wonder it's the typical Reformed claim, because it's true. Individuals who don't even understand the theology are trying to criticize it.

It reminds me of teenagers trying to correct their parents on issues that the teenagers themselves don't fully understand. They have a few scraps of knowledge on a particular topic, and all of a sudden they think they are qualified to criticize their parents' understanding.
Ezekiel 18 rightly describes how the human race does not inherit the sin of Adam.
Sin entered the world through one man, Adam. This does not mean newborns are born sinners. We know this because Jesus said in order to inherit the kingdom of God we must become like unto little children.
When the redeemed in Christ inherit the kingdom of God, likening us unto the likes of little children would be redundant if newborns, children, are born condemned as sinners.

As for the I in TULIP, Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.

We are saved by God's irrevocable grace.

Thinking the Elect of God are born totally depraved first makes them not special after all. Not when those Elect are born in the same state as those who will die in their depraved state by God's predetermination and will.
Thinking God created the totally depraved and then would regenerate, re-create that which He created depraved first because those one's were actually predetermined to be elected for that re-purposing, so that they could then have the ability to hold faith in what God insured is Irresistible to them is not anything that can be sustained by the actual Good News of Christ.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#60
As I see it the TULIP Re-Formed gospel doctrine makes God out to be a megalomaniac and sadist. And through the tactic of re-forming even the context of God's own words.

Those re-formed words tell us, God passed the sin of Adam unto all humankind after the fall so that every human born would be totally depraved in their sinful ways, totally immoral, totally unable to receive God's word or understand it as written. Then from among that entire number of the Totally Depraved, He would re-generate, which translates to, re-create, certain of the human race so that their depravity abate. And this is done for the purpose of allowing those one's who are re-created, regenerated, to hold faith in the God that freed them from the Depravity He had bestowed prior upon them. And this was so that those one's predetermined to be elected, chosen, to receive His grace would, through no act of their own. Which then would preclude the need for them to have faith when the I in the TULIP principle defines God's grace as Irresistible.
Meaning, when someone cannot resist God's gift of grace then their having faith in God is unnecessary. Because God gave His saving grace unto them without their having anything to do with it. Hence, irresistible.
And those ones then are saved from the Hell God created to receive those who perish as the Totally Depraved.

But, and this isn't often considered in these type discussions I don't think, if the Elect of God are that special as to be predestined by God to be saved before there was anything to be saved from, why did God first create those chosen one's to be Totally Depraved, for all that means in the Reformed Doctrine, just like everyone else?

Why would those God found worthy of Salvation, and for whatever reason unknown to us, first be created to be Totally Depraved?
Reading your musings is aggravating because you are claiming things that Reformed people don't believe..for instance....no one claims that the elect are something special. In fact, they believe God chooses foolish things so that he can glory in their salvation. If someone is one of the wise, noble, strong of this society, he would be less likely to choose them because he wants no one to be able to boast about their own inherent abilities in relation to salvation.

1 Corinthians 1 intimates this.

By the way, that's another issue with non-Reformed people. They simply DENY that God chooses or elects, when it is plain to see that he does. Either that, or they attempt to twist it around so that they claim God chooses them because they choose God, which in essence means that God doesn't choose, but they choose.

So, any mention of "election" or "choosing" is simply meaningless in their worldview. They can't even read the Bible with any level of comprehension due to their presuppositions.