Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon

[UnitedWithChrist]

Excerpt from Spurgeon's Sermon: Free Will- A Slave
The Prayer of the Arminian​

...Any one who believes that man's will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the fall...
But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."​

That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that. Ah! when they are preaching and talking very slowly, there may be wrong doctrine; but when they come to pray, the true thing slips out; they cannot help it. If a man talks very slowly, he may speak in a fine manner; but when he comes to talk fast, the old brogue of his country, where he was born, slips out. I ask you again, did you ever meet a Christian man who said, "I came to Christ without the power of the Spirit?" If you ever did meet such a man, you need have no hesitation in saying, "My dear sir, I quite believe it-and I believe you went away again without the power of the Spirit, and that you know nothing about the matter, and are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity." Do I hear one Christian man saying, "I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me"? No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts and say-

"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes to o'erflow;
'Twas grace that kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."​

From Spurgeon's Sermon, Free Will - A Slave

 

[Melach]

arminians dont believe people come to Christ without God doing anything. they believe they are drawing them.

 

[garee]

arminians dont believe people come to Christ without God doing anything. they believe they are drawing them.

Yes they believe they are being drawn and need our OK act of our will in order to know him .

He must do the first work of giving new spirit life and a new heart .

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

We who beforehand had "no faith" (not little, none) as a froward nation are freely given the faith by which we can believe . It as a labor of Christ called a work of faith. It works in us to both will and do the good pleasure of the father. Just as it did in the Son of God, Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

So then it is by works that he works in us , just not that of ourselves.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

For a Deterministic Calvinist, prayer is the predetermined “means” to a prescripted end.

remember, God has sent me here to point out the futility of the Calvinistic position or I would not be here

which of course, if you are Calvinist, pretermines everything you will retort or even think

best to get off that merry-go-round and the dizzying consequences with predetermined conclusions that make prayer obsolete

the op, it would seem, cannot distinguish between an insult and biblical support for his position

as others have stated here, it appears that some Calvinists absolutely enjoy insulting others and think that somehow undergirds their obvious self righteous platform

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Excerpt from Spurgeon's Sermon: Free Will- A Slave
The Prayer of the Arminian​

...Any one who believes that man's will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the fall...
But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."​

That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that. Ah! when they are preaching and talking very slowly, there may be wrong doctrine; but when they come to pray, the true thing slips out; they cannot help it. If a man talks very slowly, he may speak in a fine manner; but when he comes to talk fast, the old brogue of his country, where he was born, slips out. I ask you again, did you ever meet a Christian man who said, "I came to Christ without the power of the Spirit?" If you ever did meet such a man, you need have no hesitation in saying, "My dear sir, I quite believe it-and I believe you went away again without the power of the Spirit, and that you know nothing about the matter, and are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity." Do I hear one Christian man saying, "I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me"? No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts and say-

​

​

"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes to o'erflow;
'Twas grace that kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."



From Spurgeon's Sermon, Free Will - A Slave

a fine example of the intolerance and actual stupididty of the Calvin doctrine and the fruit it produces

I have seen plenty of pros and cons for both positions but I have never seen such flaming examples of ignorance and nastiness as can be observed in the above mocking of what a non-Calvinist believes

I am not speaking for Arminiams here as I do not follow that persuasion either, but what purpose does an op like this serve other than to create even more division and more nastiness?

it is obvious the actual 'spirit' of Calvin is alive and well in his adherents

good thing public executions wherein a religious zealot with misplaced faith can ascertain the guilt of another who does not agree with him and have him beheaded or better, burned at the stake, are no longer in vogue

honestly, my best response to the op, who sounds more and more like a previous member in this forum whom I do not think was banned but was often the source of reports because of nastiness and name calling, has rejoined under another name, would be
shame on you

do you actually ever have anything Christ like to write about or are you only ever able to brag about what you think is your safe and saved position while looking down your nose on those who disagree?

it's really sickening

 

[7seasrekeyed]

apparently, Spurgeon had a life long struggle with depression

whatever happened to the joy of the Lord? was Charles not able to rejoice in his assured salvation? or, as is more likely, was he constantly grieving the Holy Spirit because of his lamentable position and mocking of others who were and still are, most assuredly saved?

Jesus says whosoever will may come

somehow, this seems to have a negative affect on Charles and no wonder

it is contrary to the work of the Spirit of God and therefore, is against what He sets out to do

Jesus said if He is lifted up, and no, I do not believe that infers or is reference only to the cross, that He will draw all men to Him

according to Calvin, He will draw only those predestined, but yet Jesus says whosoever will down throught he ages

I would be surprised if various 'reasons' for his depression are not given

 

[Melach]

For a Deterministic Calvinist, prayer is the predetermined “means” to a prescripted end.

remember, God has sent me here to point out the futility of the Calvinistic position or I would not be here

which of course, if you are Calvinist, pretermines everything you will retort or even think

best to get off that merry-go-round and the dizzying consequences with predetermined conclusions that make prayer obsolete

the op, it would seem, cannot distinguish between an insult and biblical support for his position

as others have stated here, it appears that some Calvinists absolutely enjoy insulting others and think that somehow undergirds their obvious self righteous platform

be sure the calvinist are predestined to reply to you.

 

[Melach]

apparently, Spurgeon had a life long struggle with depression

whatever happened to the joy of the Lord? was Charles not able to rejoice in his assured salvation? or, as is more likely, was he constantly grieving the Holy Spirit because of his lamentable position and mocking of others who were and still are, most assuredly saved?

Jesus says whosoever will may come

somehow, this seems to have a negative affect on Charles and no wonder

it is contrary to the work of the Spirit of God and therefore, is against what He sets out to do

Jesus said if He is lifted up, and no, I do not believe that infers or is reference only to the cross, that He will draw all men to Him

according to Calvin, He will draw only those predestined, but yet Jesus says whosoever will down throught he ages

I would be surprised if various 'reasons' for his depression are not given

i agree with you that calvinism causes depression. even seeing john 10:26 and not able to explain it in non-calvinist way atleast yet gave me depression. i need to maybe listen to sermon from pastor anderson he have all john's chapters in sermon.

its the most depressing doctrine ever and maybe thats why they are how they are.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

a fine example of the intolerance and actual stupididty of the Calvin doctrine and the fruit it produces

I have seen plenty of pros and cons for both positions but I have never seen such flaming examples of ignorance and nastiness as can be observed in the above mocking of what a non-Calvinist believes

I am not speaking for Arminiams here as I do not follow that persuasion either, but what purpose does an op like this serve other than to create even more division and more nastiness?

it is obvious the actual 'spirit' of Calvin is alive and well in his adherents

good thing public executions wherein a religious zealot with misplaced faith can ascertain the guilt of another who does not agree with him and have him beheaded or better, burned at the stake, are no longer in vogue

honestly, my best response to the op, who sounds more and more like a previous member in this forum whom I do not think was banned but was often the source of reports because of nastiness and name calling, has rejoined under another name, would be
shame on you

do you actually ever have anything Christ like to write about or are you only ever able to brag about what you think is your safe and saved position while looking down your nose on those who disagree?

it's really sickening

I will ask you to apply the same standards that you are requiring from others to yourself.

At the moment that I mentioned I was Reformed, I have been attacked on this forum. One called Reformed theology Satanic, and another called me, in essence, an idiot.

If we don't answer people with such claims, then our silence indicates that they are accurate in the assessment that is made about us.

Therefore, I will continue to point out the biblical basis for Reformed theology and the misconceptions that their theology teaches, for the purpose of answering them.

Proverbs 26:4-5 4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I ask you, look back on your own posts concerning Reformed theology. Is there any nastiness and disrespect in them?

By the way, I am quoting one of the greatest preachers who ever lived; a man who was respected by both Reformed people and non-Reformed people.

Prayer is one of the ways that "free-willers" are inconsistent. They are inconsistent because they (hopefully) pray for God to bring folks to faith, claiming all along that God doesn't interfere with their free-will.

Your first few remarks indicate the contempt that you hold Reformed theology and those that hold it.

Want to know my position? I believe, due to Charles Finney, who wasn't a Christian because he denied original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and substitutionary atonement...most of the evangelical church hates Reformed theology. His "decisional regeneration" view, which was not accepted whatsoever until his time, traveled along with his evangelism. Along with this, so has a strong anti-Reformed sentiment.

So, what are you saying? Reformed believers aren't allowed to defend their theology here? They are just supposed to sit back and allow others to call them idiots and Satanic?

I realize there are cliques here who would enjoy ruling the roost and getting others banned so they can propagate their belief systems without restraint.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

arminians dont believe people come to Christ without God doing anything. they believe they are drawing them.

Who is drawing them? God, or the Arminian?

By the way, Reformed people believe in preaching the gospel. They believe all mankind should hear the gospel, and hearing the gospel is the instrument that God uses to reach the elect. The ones who are elect will hear and respond; those who are not elect will not respond. The elect don't have an X on their foreheads so we know who they are. They are the sheep who turn the head and follow the Master.

 

[UnderGrace]

Who is drawing them? God, or the Arminian?

By the way, Reformed people believe in preaching the gospel. They believe all mankind should hear the gospel, and hearing the gospel is the instrument that God uses to reach the elect. The ones who are elect will hear and respond; those who are not elect will not respond. The elect don't have an X on their foreheads so we know who they are. They are the sheep who turn the head and follow the Master.

I wonder what happens if some of the selected do not get to hear the gospel?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I wonder what happens if some of the selected do not get to hear the gospel?

God makes sure that they do.

Remember, we believe in a Sovereign Lord who has elected a certain group of people. He's not going to leave one of his sheep alone who is never exposed to the gospel.

The Father elects
The Son atones
The Spirit applies

The same group that is elected, is atoned for, and the same group who is atoned for, is regenerated and taught by God.

God isn't a dummy god who elects a certain number of persons, then atones for all of mankind, and then fails to regenerate or teach some of the elect.

God the Father elects
God the Son atones for the elect
God the Holy Spirit teaches them the gospel, regenerates them, justifies them, sanctifies them, and glorifies them.

And, through regeneration, which brings about union with Christ, they are joined to his body and are discipled by other believers.

Salvation is a profoundly Trinitarian and communal affair in Christianity.

And, Scripture bears this all out. There is a definite design that is explained well within Reformed theology. I don't think free-willer theology thinks about much besides their alleged free-will and the humanistic presuppositions behind it.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

a fine example of the intolerance and actual stupididty of the Calvin doctrine and the fruit it produces

I have seen plenty of pros and cons for both positions but I have never seen such flaming examples of ignorance and nastiness as can be observed in the above mocking of what a non-Calvinist believes

I am not speaking for Arminiams here as I do not follow that persuasion either, but what purpose does an op like this serve other than to create even more division and more nastiness?

it is obvious the actual 'spirit' of Calvin is alive and well in his adherents

good thing public executions wherein a religious zealot with misplaced faith can ascertain the guilt of another who does not agree with him and have him beheaded or better, burned at the stake, are no longer in vogue

honestly, my best response to the op, who sounds more and more like a previous member in this forum whom I do not think was banned but was often the source of reports because of nastiness and name calling, has rejoined under another name, would be
shame on you

do you actually ever have anything Christ like to write about or are you only ever able to brag about what you think is your safe and saved position while looking down your nose on those who disagree?

it's really sickening

By the way, I would ask you all to look back on posts made by this individual and ask if she has communicated in a kind manner toward Reformed believers. Before she criticizes me for intolerance, she should look at her own behavior.

I would suggest that Reformed people endure a LOT more nastiness and name-calling than free-willers, because free-will theology has been the norm in the USA because they are part of the teachings of Pentecostals, charismatics, and general Baptist groups, which comprise a sizeable segment of evangelical Christianity.

However, this is changing. The Reformed segment is growing because seekers are realizing their explanations are a lot more coherent than free-willer theology.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

a fine example of the intolerance and actual stupididty of the Calvin doctrine and the fruit it produces

I have seen plenty of pros and cons for both positions but I have never seen such flaming examples of ignorance and nastiness as can be observed in the above mocking of what a non-Calvinist believes

I am not speaking for Arminiams here as I do not follow that persuasion either, but what purpose does an op like this serve other than to create even more division and more nastiness?

it is obvious the actual 'spirit' of Calvin is alive and well in his adherents

good thing public executions wherein a religious zealot with misplaced faith can ascertain the guilt of another who does not agree with him and have him beheaded or better, burned at the stake, are no longer in vogue

honestly, my best response to the op, who sounds more and more like a previous member in this forum whom I do not think was banned but was often the source of reports because of nastiness and name calling, has rejoined under another name, would be
shame on you

do you actually ever have anything Christ like to write about or are you only ever able to brag about what you think is your safe and saved position while looking down your nose on those who disagree?

it's really sickening

I think that when a Reformed person explains the beliefs well, and dispels some of the lies and misrepresentations of others, he will automatically face charges of intolerance. That is part of how the free-willer crowd asserts their dominance over forums like this.

By the way, I would ask you all to look back on posts made by this individual and ask if she has communicated in a kind manner toward Reformed believers. Before she criticizes me for intolerance, she should look at her own behavior.

Ask if she is a model of the very standards she is allegedly defending.

I would suggest that Reformed people endure a LOT more nastiness and name-calling than free-willers, because free-will theology has been the norm in the USA because they are part of the teachings of Pentecostals, charismatics, and general Baptist groups, which comprise a sizeable segment of evangelical Christianity.

However, this is changing. The Reformed segment is growing because seekers are realizing their explanations are a lot more biblical than free-willer theology. Free-willer theology is based largely upon humanistic assumptions that sets man at the center of the story, rather than realizing that God is at the center of his story, and that his glory is his concern.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

apparently, Spurgeon had a life long struggle with depression

whatever happened to the joy of the Lord? was Charles not able to rejoice in his assured salvation? or, as is more likely, was he constantly grieving the Holy Spirit because of his lamentable position and mocking of others who were and still are, most assuredly saved?

Jesus says whosoever will may come

somehow, this seems to have a negative affect on Charles and no wonder

it is contrary to the work of the Spirit of God and therefore, is against what He sets out to do

Jesus said if He is lifted up, and no, I do not believe that infers or is reference only to the cross, that He will draw all men to Him

according to Calvin, He will draw only those predestined, but yet Jesus says whosoever will down throught he ages

I would be surprised if various 'reasons' for his depression are not given

So, are you willing to apply the logic of your remarks to Arminianism?

If any Arminian is struggling with depression, is it due to his Arminianism?

If you aren't willing to apply the same standard to Arminian theology, then does that mean you are a hypocrite?

I think so. Hypocrites define certain standards to others, but don't apply them to themselves.

So, are Arminians who have depression guilty of bad doctrine, or even worse things, as you are suggesting?

Regarding John 12, which you allude to, but don't quote, the context of the Scripture is important. Jesus said that he will draw all men to himself, after being told that some Greeks wanted to talk to him. I don't think he talked to them, but said he would draw all men to himself after the resurrection. I believe he did that, in spirit, through the apostles and their outreach to the Jews.

John 6:44 says that no man can come to the Father except he be drawn, and if he is drawn he will be raised up the last day. Therefore, everyone who is drawn is also raised in glory. If all men, without exception, are drawn, then all men are saved, without exception, therefore universalism is true.

However, my position is that John 12 is talking about all kinds of men, Jews and Gentiles, and not every single man.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

i agree with you that calvinism causes depression. even seeing john 10:26 and not able to explain it in non-calvinist way atleast yet gave me depression. i need to maybe listen to sermon from pastor anderson he have all john's chapters in sermon.

its the most depressing doctrine ever and maybe thats why they are how they are.

If you're talking about Steven Anderson, he's a heretic.

He claims that no homosexual can be saved, even if they repent of their sins and place their faith in Jesus. He doesn't think they can repent of their sins. When asked what a homosexual should do, he said they should shoot themselves in the head. He said this on a BBC program about America's Hate Preachers (look it up if you want).

So, here's where the double standards come into play. If someone is struggling with homosexuality, then they are being told by Steven Anderson that they can't be saved. How much depression would that bring on, if they don't realize that Steven Anderson is a false teacher? Yet, you are claiming Reformed theology is depressing, but you believe some guy who teaches that one class of sinners is condemned and cannot repent.

By the way, he doesn't believe in Lordship Salvation either. He denies it, and doesn't believe the person needs to repent of their sins in a biblical sense. They can go on sinning after salvation with no concern for their sinfulness, and they will still be saved.

Anderson thinks that faith is mere intellectual assent, and if you don't believe his version of faith, you believe in works righteousness.

Christianity doesn't teach that. It teaches that the believer is joined with Jesus, and this union justifies them. Jesus dwells within them, and transforms them over their life into the image of Christ. This is a lifelong process. See Romans 6:1-14.

Of course, you may not be referring to Steven Anderson. I hope not, because he's a heretic. I personally don't think he's a Christian.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Who is drawing them? God, or the Arminian?

By the way, Reformed people believe in preaching the gospel. They believe all mankind should hear the gospel, and hearing the gospel is the instrument that God uses to reach the elect. The ones who are elect will hear and respond; those who are not elect will not respond. The elect don't have an X on their foreheads so we know who they are. They are the sheep who turn the head and follow the Master.

I need to re-phrase something here. All mankind NEEDS to hear the gospel. God uses the gospel to effectually call the elect. Effectual calling means that the person is elected to salvation, and will respond. Jesus' sheep hear his voice. Jesus uses human instruments to communicate his gospel.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

i agree with you that calvinism causes depression. even seeing john 10:26 and not able to explain it in non-calvinist way atleast yet gave me depression. i need to maybe listen to sermon from pastor anderson he have all john's chapters in sermon.

its the most depressing doctrine ever and maybe thats why they are how they are.

By the way, Anderson claimed that as soon as he heard the NIV, he knew it wasn't Jesus' voice.

In his view, the KJV is Jesus' voice.

So, he might claim some goofy thing like that..that the KJV is Jesus' voice, and the sheep hear the KJV.

I suppose even the sheep back then had to learn Christianity from the KJV

He made this remark in the interview with James White, I think..I'm not sure.

 

[Melach]

If you're talking about Steven Anderson, he's a heretic.

He claims that no homosexual can be saved, even if they repent of their sins and place their faith in Jesus. He doesn't think they can repent of their sins. When asked what a homosexual should do, he said they should shoot themselves in the head. He said this on a BBC program about America's Hate Preachers (look it up if you want).

So, here's where the double standards come into play. If someone is struggling with homosexuality, then they are being told by Steven Anderson that they can't be saved. How much depression would that bring on, if they don't realize that Steven Anderson is a false teacher? Yet, you are claiming Reformed theology is depressing, but you believe some guy who teaches that one class of sinners is condemned and cannot repent.

By the way, he doesn't believe in Lordship Salvation either. He denies it, and doesn't believe the person needs to repent of their sins in a biblical sense. They can go on sinning after salvation with no concern for their sinfulness, and they will still be saved.

Anderson thinks that faith is mere intellectual assent, and if you don't believe his version of faith, you believe in works righteousness.

Christianity doesn't teach that. It teaches that the believer is joined with Jesus, and this union justifies them. Jesus dwells within them, and transforms them over their life into the image of Christ. This is a lifelong process. See Romans 6:1-14.

Of course, you may not be referring to Steven Anderson. I hope not, because he's a heretic. I personally don't think he's a Christian.

i like him. pastor anderson atleast has the guts to say what he wants. he is not a sissy like many preachers today, afraid of their own shadow.

why would God say He was looking for a man but found none? nobody to stand in gap? thats stupid because God could just regenerate someone and give them faith and repentance gifts and there would be someone to stand in the gap. why is God wondering why people He gave totally depraved curse are not standing in the gap? of course they arent standing in the gap.

here is a funny video of pastor anderson yelling at calvinism. hahahaha. is it the yelling you dont like? it entertains me.

if you seriously want to know what steven anderson beliefs about salvation. you should listen to his sermons going through 1 john epistle. he doesnt believe you can just be christian today say sinner's prayer and then two weeks later you are atheist. he would say its false convert. God will keep those who are saved

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who is drawing them? God, or the Arminian?

By the way, Reformed people believe in preaching the gospel. They believe all mankind should hear the gospel, and hearing the gospel is the instrument that God uses to reach the elect. The ones who are elect will hear and respond; those who are not elect will not respond. The elect don't have an X on their foreheads so we know who they are. They are the sheep who turn the head and follow the Master.

in other words

god prevents the non elect from hearing, and makes sure the elect will respond

and you see nothing wrong with this?

thats the problem