Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

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7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#61
Good observation. It goes to show (a) that there has been little or no teaching on the finished work of Christ and (b) those who are ignorant wish to continue in their ignorance.

you know, I wonder what people are taught these days

the basics seem to be missing and they do not understand God's character...that He has not changed one single bit from the Old Testament to the New. if they even familiarize themselves with the OT

God hates sin as much as He ever did and the ONLY reason we may now approach without fear is because Jesus took our place but death could not hold Him because He had no sin

and yet, He was made sin for us

once upon a time the entire world save a family on an ark were drowned in their sin at God's hand. we are speaking about the same God

He hates sin
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#62
Who do you think bore the wrath of God for your sins and mine? I am *suggesting* nothing. However I have quoted many Scriptures to show that (1) there is divine wrath against sin, (2) Christ was made Sin for us, and (3) therefore He bore the wrath of God against sin on our behalf. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe God.
There was no divine wrath against Jesus.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#63
you know, I wonder what people are taught these days

the basics seem to be missing and they do not understand God's character...that He has not changed one single bit from the Old Testament to the New. if they even familiarize themselves with the OT

God hates sin as much as He ever did and the ONLY reason we may now approach without fear is because Jesus took our place but death could not hold Him because He had no sin

and yet, He was made sin for us

once upon a time the entire world save a family on an ark were drowned in their sin at God's hand. we are speaking about the same God

He hates sin
So you are comparing Jesus with those wicked people who died in the flood.
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
283
138
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#64
he is wrong

read the gospel accounts

Jesus said 'My God My God why have you forsaken me?'

what do you suppose that means?

how do you suppose Jesus bore the sins of mankind, including you and me who were not even born yet?

the Proverbs tell us to get understanding

maybe read them too
Answer them yourself, in what manner did God forsake Jesus, and how is it logistically possible for Jesus to bear the sins of all mankind (outside of a figurative sense)?
You should consider reading proverbs, and maybe a book on biblical hermeneutics i.e. know when to differentiate between metaphors, allegories, litteralisms, etc...
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#65
So you are comparing Jesus with those wicked people who died in the flood.
nope

YOU are actually lacking in both understanding and obviously a civil tongue

and going to continue in the same it would seem

Answer them yourself, in what manner did God forsake Jesus, and how is it logistically possible for Jesus to bear the sins of all mankind (outside of a figurative sense)?
You should consider reading proverbs, and maybe a book on biblical hermeneutics i.e. know when to differentiate between metaphors, allegories, litteralisms, etc...
I have noticed that anger and mistaken belief seem to go hand in hand

you have not supplied me with any doubt regarding that sentiment
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
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#66
'I have noticed that anger and mistaken belief seem to go hand in hand', out of your own mouth, 7seas!
God did not forsake Jesus, when it was God's will that he be hung on a cross. It's antithetical to the purpose that he was sent.
For that reason, I will not take this verse hyper-literaly. Either Jesus was alluding to the entire pericope of Psalm 22 (common Hebraic practice to refer to 1st verse only), or the proper Aramaic is 'God, for this thou hast spared me', or it has another sense altogether?
God, never forsook Jesus, obviously, because either way, Jesus knew that it was temporal, he knew his destiny that God would never deny what he promised. So how in the world could Christ believe that he was forsaken. Temporal doesn't count, for it means that ultimately, you have not been forsaken, and Christ knew this, obviously.

And again, bearing all the sins of the world is much too hypothetical that it must not be taken literally. The Bulls and goats bore all the sins of the Israelites in the same manner. Thus, you tell me what was going on, and who was being punished for what?

Hyper-literalism is a very bad form of exegesis, one reading of the Bible teaches us this (parobolos, symbolisms, allegories, poetry, prophecy, metaphors, wisdom, fables, etc..)
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#67
'I have noticed that anger and mistaken belief seem to go hand in hand', out of your own mouth, 7seas!
God did not forsake Jesus, when it was God's will that he be hung on a cross. It's antithetical to the purpose that he was sent.
For that reason, I will not take this verse hyper-literaly. Either Jesus was alluding to the entire pericope of Psalm 22 (common Hebraic practice to refer to 1st verse only), or the proper Aramaic is 'God, for this thou hast spared me', or it has another sense altogether?
God, never forsook Jesus, obviously, because either way, Jesus knew that it was temporal, he knew his destiny that God would never deny what he promised. So how in the world could Christ believe that he was forsaken. Temporal doesn't count, for it means that ultimately, you have not been forsaken, and Christ knew this, obviously.

And again, bearing all the sins of the world is much too hypothetical that it must not be taken literally. The Bulls and goats bore all the sins of the Israelites in the same manner. Thus, you tell me what was going on, and who was being punished for what?

Hyper-literalism is a very bad form of exegesis, one reading of the Bible teaches us this (parobolos, symbolisms, allegories, poetry, prophecy, metaphors, wisdom, fables, etc..)
I will not take this verse hyper-literaly.
duly noted
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#68
God did not forsake Jesus, when it was God's will that he be hung on a cross. It's antithetical to the purpose that he was sent.
This is a BLATANT DENIAL of what is stated in the Bible, and also a rejection of what is revealed. If God did not forsake Jesus for those three dark hours on the cross, then you have made a Christ a liar. That is an extremely serious matter.

One thousand years before He hung on that cross, the Holy Spirit revealed exactly what He would cry out in His anguish by the mouth of David. That is what we read in Psalm 22:1 And those are the exact words written down in Matthew 27:46. And the precise meaning of azabtani in Hebrew and sabachthani in Aramaic is "forsaken". Forsaken by God, smitten of God and afflicted. The metaphorical "sword" of the wrath of God pierced the soul of Christ.

How could that be "antithetical to the purpose" when Christ specifically came to earth as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world? And the only way He could do that was to quench the wrath of God against sin in His own holy soul. And that is what is seen in all the verses I have quoted in the OP. I have avoided the verses which deal with the physical sufferings of Christ, and posted the verses which focus on the intense sufferings of His soul and spirit.

I am shocked and amazed that people who say they are Christians blatantly deny the core of the Gospel. Unless we believe that Christ bore the wrath of God against our sins, we do not believe God nor do we truly believe the Gospel.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#69
So you are comparing Jesus with those wicked people who died in the flood.
Does not the Bible say that Christ was made S-I-N for us? Is that not sufficient to confirm that all the sin, evil, ad wickedness of the whole world was imputed to Jesus and laid upon Him? "The LORD hath laid upon Him THE INIQUITY OF US ALL" (Isa 53:6).

If you do not believe that it means that you expect to pay for your own sins. And you know where that price will be paid.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#70
Does not the Bible say that Christ was made S-I-N for us? Is that not sufficient to confirm that all the sin, evil, ad wickedness of the whole world was imputed to Jesus and laid upon Him? "The LORD hath laid upon Him THE INIQUITY OF US ALL" (Isa 53:6).

If you do not believe that it means that you expect to pay for your own sins. And you know where that price will be paid.
That is step 1 in God's plan of salvation for mankind.

Step 1: is Christ's death and resurrection.

Step 2: The risen Christ, our advocate, pleads on our behalf.

So now, if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn 2:1

Who is making intercession for us. Rom 8:34; Rom 11:2; Heb 7:25

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:5

Step 3: Is the Judgement, when we shall have to answer for our own sins.
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
283
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#71
Sorry 7seas, I'm not sure if I got the meaning of your last reply to me?
Are you pointing out that I choose to refuse to accept, what the Word of God is saying?
Just curious, thanks!
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
283
138
43
#72
This is a BLATANT DENIAL of what is stated in the Bible, and also a rejection of what is revealed. If God did not forsake Jesus for those three dark hours on the cross, then you have made a Christ a liar. That is an extremely serious matter.

One thousand years before He hung on that cross, the Holy Spirit revealed exactly what He would cry out in His anguish by the mouth of David. That is what we read in Psalm 22:1 And those are the exact words written down in Matthew 27:46. And the precise meaning of azabtani in Hebrew and sabachthani in Aramaic is "forsaken". Forsaken by God, smitten of God and afflicted. The metaphorical "sword" of the wrath of God pierced the soul of Christ.

How could that be "antithetical to the purpose" when Christ specifically came to earth as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world? And the only way He could do that was to quench the wrath of God against sin in His own holy soul. And that is what is seen in all the verses I have quoted in the OP. I have avoided the verses which deal with the physical sufferings of Christ, and posted the verses which focus on the intense sufferings of His soul and spirit.

I am shocked and amazed that people who say they are Christians blatantly deny the core of the Gospel. Unless we believe that Christ bore the wrath of God against our sins, we do not believe God nor do we truly believe the Gospel.
But N6, i explained to you what my position was on his sufferings and so forth.
You know very well that I don't regard his intended death as a literal payment for sin, but as an ending of a covenant which required blood.
I don't believe you pointed the shortcomings in my thought, whereas I tried to explain the deficiencies in yours.
As in, despite the Psalm 22 stating that he was forsaken, Christ did not mean that God forsook him literally. For again, Christ knew he had to die for 3 days, then be raised, and then be glorified for eternity, for he even told the Apostles this before his death. So, there is no way under the sun that he ever really believed that he was, or would be, forsaken. This is why I am forced to understand his reference to Psalm 22, in another manner.
But also, don't forget that this Psalm was originally from King David, which even David did not consider it to be a complete abandonment, for he praises God from verses 23-32 for rescuing him, and thus, ultimately not abandoning him.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#73
But N6, i explained to you what my position was on his sufferings and so forth.
You know very well that I don't regard his intended death as a literal payment for sin, but as an ending of a covenant which required blood.
I don't believe you pointed the shortcomings in my thought, whereas I tried to explain the deficiencies in yours.
As in, despite the Psalm 22 stating that he was forsaken, Christ did not mean that God forsook him literally. For again, Christ knew he had to die for 3 days, then be raised, and then be glorified for eternity, for he even told the Apostles this before his death. So, there is no way under the sun that he ever really believed that he was, or would be, forsaken. This is why I am forced to understand his reference to Psalm 22, in another manner.
But also, don't forget that this Psalm was originally from King David, which even David did not consider it to be a complete abandonment, for he praises God from verses 23-32 for rescuing him, and thus, ultimately not abandoning him.
Just a thought, but the very idea of the Father following Jesus into death and hell cannot even be considered.
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
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#74
Just a thought, but the very idea of the Father following Jesus into death and hell cannot even be considered.
Agreed, of course, not an option whatsoever!
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#75
When Jesus quoted Psalm 22 from the cross he was doing what he always did when he preached which was to quote scripture. Jesus never shouted, cried out or raised his voice in the street but even though he was a bruised reed, he did not break, neither was he snuffed out. He did not falter, neither was he discouraged, and neither will he be discouraged, until he establishes justice on earth, and then there will be great rejoicing, and with his last breath He shouted out Psalm 22 not from the street, but from the cross, "I have accomplished it."

1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.

Isaiah 42

Jesus never cried out, raised his voice or shouted in the street, but on the cross He triumphantly quoted from Psalm 22 that ends with the glorious words, "he has accomplished it!"

Prophesy fulfilled in Psalm 22 below.

Psa 22:16-31 ISV

(16) For dogs have surrounded me; a gang of those who practice of evil has encircled me. They gouged my hands and my feet.
(17) I can count all my bones. They look at me; they stare at me.
(18) They divide my clothing among themselves; they cast lots for my clothing!
(19) But as for you, LORD, do not be far away from me; My Strength, come quickly to help me.
(20) Deliver me from the sword; my precious life from the power of the dog.
(21) Deliver me from the mouth of the lion, from the horns of the wild oxen. You have answered me.
(22) I will declare your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you, saying,
(23) "All who fear the LORD, praise him! All the seed of Jacob, glorify him! All the seed of Israel, fear him!
(24) For he does not despise nor detest the afflicted person; he does not hide his face from him, but he hears him when he cries out to him."
(25) My praise in the great congregation is because of you; I will pay my vows before those who fear you.
(26) The afflicted will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise him, "May you live forever!"
(27) All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD; all the families of the nations will bow in submission to the LORD.
(28) Indeed, the kingdom belongs to the LORD; he rules over the nations.
(29) All the prosperous people will eat and bow down in submission. All those who are about to go down to the grave will bow down in submission, along with the one who can no longer keep himself alive.
(30) Our descendants will serve him, and that generation will be told about the Lord.

(31) They will come and declare his righteousness to a people yet to be born; indeed, he has accomplished it!

JESUS IS LORD
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,324
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#76
PART I

Christians will find many articles or writings which allege that Penal Substitution as applied to the finished work of Christ is a “theory”, and one among many. They will also allege that this is purely a Reformed doctrine, and that the Reformers came up with this teaching, rather than it being a Bible and Gospel truth, which all Bible-believing Christians accept (including Non-Calvinists). But Penal Substitution is not a theory. It is Gospel Truth. And we do not need to look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers (or any so-called scholars or theologians) to see if they had a correct understanding of Bible truth. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they did not. And they certainly did not write by Divine inspiration.

WHAT DOES PENAL SUBSTITUTION MEAN?
Theopedia provides us with a satisfactory summary of the meaning of penal substitution.

“Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.”

The word “penal” is related to penalty, particularly crimes committed by criminals. But it is also applicable to sins committed by sinners. There is a penalty for every crime or infraction of the laws of the land. And there is also a divine penalty for every sin committed. We see divine penalties applied in the Flood of Noah’s day as well as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (among other cities and nations in the Bible).

The word “substitution” simply means that someone other than the criminal or the sinner has been punished for the crime or sin committed. It would be similar to having two brothers in a court of law where one of them has been convicted of being a murderer. The other brother would approach the judge and ask that the death penalty be applied to him, so that his guilty brother can go free. The penalty would not change, but the one who paid the penalty would have been substituted. And the demands of justice would have been met.

GOD IS THE ULTIMATE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE
God has many attributes and many offices. One of them is that God is the Divine Judge of all humanity. There are numerous Scriptures which proclaim that God is the Divine Judge, and that all His judgments are righteous.


And the heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is Judge Himself. Selah. (Ps 50:6) But God is the Judge: He putteth down one, and setteth up another. (Ps 75:7) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the Righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing. (2 Tim 4:8) Here Christ is the Judge, and indeed God the Father has handed over all judgment to Christ: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead. (Acts 17:31)

THE PENALTY FOR SINS AND WICKEDNESS IS DIVINE WRATH
Throughout Scripture we see that Christ was indeed the perfect and only substitute for all mankind. “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor 15:3). Had there been no cross, every sinner (all humanity) would be judged as guilty of death. And that would include the first (or physical) death as well as the second (or spiritual and eternal) death, which is separation from God in the Lake of Fire, and which expresses the wrath of God against sin.


For those who do not understand (or believe) that it is wrath, we have these Scriptures: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them...But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. (Rom 1:18,32; 2:8,9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:9,10)

THE LAMB OF GOD TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE WRATH OF GOD
When Christians reflect upon the sufferings of Christ on the cross, they often focus on the physical pain and excruciating agony of that cross (the worst form of Roman punishment). But God would have us focus on the anguish within the soul of Christ while He bore the wrath of God within Himself. While the word “wrath” does not appear in the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ, we must be clear that that is what was applied to Christ. But it is indicated directly and indirectly in both the Old and New Testaments. And we have other Scriptures which present the agony within the soul and spirit of Christ while He hung on that cross.
God does not chasten the wicked that are not his elect. Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scorgest every soul he receiveth. (Heb 12:6). Those that he does not chasten, he does not love. Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek interpretation = Divinely punished) like other men.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#77
God does not chasten the wicked that are not his elect. Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scorgest every soul he receiveth. (Heb 12:6). Those that he does not chasten, he does not love. Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek interpretation = Divinely punished) like other men.
I should have added that the wicked that God does not divinely punish "as they live here in this world, but will be judged and punished in hell" at the last day.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#78
All of the Gospel holds that the purpose Jesus took upon Himself the form of man, came to earth and gave His life on the cross was to be the required sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. Disputing this would prove a person to NOT be a christian.

That this death was horror beyond description is shown in the various accounts in Scripture.

All of this is God's Master Plan.
Christ's death on the cross paid for the sins of all of those that he was a sacrifice for, and all that he sacrificed for, which were those that God gave him, will live in heaven when he comes back to collect his elect. He was not a sacrifice for all mankind.