Reject man-made works and election religions, but instead : -

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Dec 12, 2013
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#81
Remove not the simplicity found in Christ

JESUS plus FAITH = saved eternally <--God's math

JESUS plus works, church membership, immersion, sprinkling, sacraments, back flipping down the isle, 57 verses of just as I am, 10 extra works, 68 hail mary's, religious hoop jumping, taking Lord's supper, etc. = temporal salvation as long as one maintains it by following the religious shampoo bottle of apply, scrub, rinse repeat........<---Religion's math
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#82
(5) Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

(7) In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

(11) Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

(15) And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
(17) And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Col 3:5-17 ESV

I don't see any works here.

if there were works though, shouldn't everyone do them since this is scripture?

but again I don't see any works here Paul is basically pointing out the life some came from and encouraging them not to return to it

those who live that lifestyle will suffer the wrath of God

nothing about works

if we are saved from the wrath of God and have put aside how we used to live in sin, then that is not works

that is the new life in Christ, at least that appears to be what Paul is saying

reading v 11 I see we are to forgive as we have been forgiven.

I would think all of the above is normative for a person who now has their life 'hidden' in Christ

did I miss something? did the op state somewhere that 'works' save? I didn't see that but who knows

seems some people are up in arms but then I don't post in certain threads
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#83
OK and no you are not sorry and like yesterday when I made a direct quote about the imputed righteousness of CHRIST and you accused me of saying I made myself equal with Christ.......

2 Greek words = the word translated HYPOCRITE

well that's not good

if we didn't have the imputed righteousness of Christ, God would turn away from us

I think we all believe in sanctification?

we are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit, that is growing in Christ, until the day we are 'perfected'

we are not there yet
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#84
well that's not good

if we didn't have the imputed righteousness of Christ, God would turn away from us

I think we all believe in sanctification?

we are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit, that is growing in Christ, until the day we are 'perfected'

we are not there yet
The problem with most views is the single application of the word....Sanctification is dual in usage and MANY conflate the 2nd application of the word with verses out of context to peddle a losable position (salvation)........the dual usage is found in the following truths...

1. Positionally in Christ eternally <---do a study on the word IN
2. In our daily walk

The first is a sealed done deal, the latter is subject to successes and or failures.......most conflate the latter with the former and come to faulty conclusions on the eternal application of salvation.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,732
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#85
The problem with most views is the single application of the word....Sanctification is dual in usage and MANY conflate the 2nd application of the word with verses out of context to peddle a losable position (salvation)........the dual usage is found in the following truths...

1. Positionally in Christ eternally <---do a study on the word IN
2. In our daily walk

The first is a sealed done deal, the latter is subject to successes and or failures.......most conflate the latter with the former and come to faulty conclusions on the eternal application of salvation.
The latter is based on daily decisions. Follow the “flesh - carnal nature” or follow the “spirit - hunger and thirst for God’s Word and Spirit.”
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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#86
God is NOT manipulating us or forcing us to worship Him or love Him ..... God, on purpose is leaving “LOVE” as a choice, even a daily choice.

He so longs for our love...... It amazes me what God suffers as He waits patiently for our love.....
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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#87
Shall we make our relationship with God dependent on “works” or “love”?

Works are NEVER satisfied. Nothing but a hamster wheel. Go ahead, knock yourself out!

Whereas, Love just simply enjoys “being” in each other’s presence....really doesn’t matter WHAT YOUR DOING!!! Your focus is on God and His focus is on you!

No worries of wrong doing, you know His heart and would NEVER want to cause Him pain. :love:
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#88
I don't see any works here.

if there were works though, shouldn't everyone do them since this is scripture?

but again I don't see any works here Paul is basically pointing out the life some came from and encouraging them not to return to it

those who live that lifestyle will suffer the wrath of God

nothing about works

if we are saved from the wrath of God and have put aside how we used to live in sin, then that is not works

that is the new life in Christ, at least that appears to be what Paul is saying

reading v 11 I see we are to forgive as we have been forgiven.

I would think all of the above is normative for a person who now has their life 'hidden' in Christ

did I miss something? did the op state somewhere that 'works' save? I didn't see that but who knows

seems some people are up in arms but then I don't post in certain threads
The only 'work' we need to do is to repent of our sin. That aside, Christ has done it all.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#89
Shall we make our relationship with God dependent on “works” or “love”?

Works are NEVER satisfied. Nothing but a hamster wheel. Go ahead, knock yourself out!

Whereas, Love just simply enjoys “being” in each other’s presence....really doesn’t matter WHAT YOUR DOING!!! Your focus is on God and His focus is on you!

No worries of wrong doing, you know His heart and would NEVER want to cause Him pain. :love:
Who are you responding to please Lafftur?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#90
use the ignore function. thats what God does when you pray until you stop believing israelites followed a false god in the o.t. when they took out canaanites.

im here too hahaha i will never drop it.
Good to see you.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#91
I don't see any works here.
As I said there is no connection between the title and the OP.

The title should have been "And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus" (v 17).
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#92
The latter is based on daily decisions. Follow the “flesh - carnal nature” or follow the “spirit - hunger and thirst for God’s Word and Spirit.”
The latter is based upon the transformation based on Romans 12:1-2 and the spiritual growth that comes from feeding the born again spirit the word of God
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#93
(5) Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

(7) In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

(11) Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

(15) And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
(17) And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Col 3:5-17 ESV
Yes,may I add more scriptures to buttress the ones you’ve already posted.

Romans 12:1-2
King James Version

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#94
We are that living sacrifice and not the dead sacrifice of the ancient Jews, so that we might live for God and consequently, although we are in the world we are not part of the world. Thank you. :)
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#95
We are that living sacrifice and not the dead sacrifice of the ancient Jews, so that we might live for God and consequently, although we are in the world we are not part of the world. Thank you. :)
yes the part of us that cannot be seen Is the real us and we should present our bodies a Living sacrifice,JESUS IS the VINE and we are members of the body/branches Receiving sustenance from the VINE and displaying spiritual fruit.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#96
Romans 5v1,2
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

There are three aspects to our salvation. By reducing salvation to just one aspect, many will end up arguing for days and days on end (years and years). One will quote aspect number 1, and another will try refute with aspect number 2. These however are not contradictory. The bible is not contradictory.

All three Persons of the Godhead are involved in the three aspects of our common salvation.

Look carefully at the verse above:

1) We cannot be saved unless we come through the door of Jesus Christ. We are JUSTIFIED by his blood through faith in Christ Jesus, which brings PEACE with GOD. This is aspect number 1. There is no part 2 or 3 unless you come through Jesus. There is no way to the Father but by Jesus. There are hundreds of scriptures which establish this basic truth. None of us actually argue against this point. I will say it once more, just for emphasis ---- NONE of us are arguing this point.

2) We have the Spirit of Grace, the Holy Spirit, who also has a part in our salvation, but it is NOT in conflict with part 1 above. Read the scripture above once again. ------ "through whom also we have access by faith into this GRACE in which we stand". We have access to the Holy Spirit through Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Grace. It is a NOW moment. Where we currently stand. Its living out our lives in the HERE AND NOW. Whereas part 1 above refers to JUSTIFICATION, this part 2 refers to SANCTIFICATION. Its a separating ourselves from the world and worldliness. Continually transforming our minds. Becoming more Christlike. Growing in God. Growing in Love. This is also VERY MUCH a part of our salvation, as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. To those who OVERCOME He will give the right to eat from the tree of life. There is a daily OVERCOMING. A daily picking up of our cross. There are hundreds of scriptures establishing this basic truth. Herein lies the battle for the Christian, Flesh vs Spirit and Spirit vs Flesh. Our choices remain to either live according to the flesh or the Spirit. These decisions are made in our inner man. In our soul.

3) We now have God the Father, who participates in the final concluding chapter of our Salvation, namely GLORIFICATION. It is at this point, when we come into His glorious presence that we are given new resurrected bodies (Glorified bodies). Bodies which cannot sin for they no longer have the corruption that we have been dragging around since Adam. This final chapter of Glorification to awarded to those who have overcome. How do we overcome? 1 John 5 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? There are also hundreds of scriptures pointing to the glorification of the saints.

None of the above is possible without Faith. We should all agree on this fact. But simply bypassing the journey, by the Holy Spirit, and simply dismissing the work of sanctification is very much unlikely to get you to the point of Glorifiction. For if you live by Faith, the life you live in part 2 will bring you through as an overcomer.

Now--- please ----- lets all stop beating each other with verses the are not placed in their proper context positionally, as per the above. There is way too much of this.
Very well stated sir! (y)(y)

I have striven for several years, in trying to "plead" this very argument, you have just put forth in my own words, just to have "show me in the Bible", thrown at me, in the hopes of "burying" me, or, on other occasions, jez flat out ignored.
So now, instead of "saying it in my own words", I use "scripture only", in "pleading" my case. Just to have "you've taken that verse out of its "properly positioned context." Which is of course? Horse hockey!

But, you are correct! We all seem to have step #1 of your argument, down pretty well.

"The rub" comes with those who go from step 1, right into step 3!
And it just DOESN'T "work" THAT way!

In essence, and reality? It's these people here:
Isaiah 28

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (end of quote)
Mocking and scoffing those doing step 2. Making their "false" accusations of: "yer working to earn, or maintain your salvation", being called "legalists", "judeizers", "hebrew roots", among other "easily pigeon holed (prejudged), and just as easily, scoffed, mocked, and dismissed" monikers!

And, to my knowledge, I have not condemned those in step 1. Just those who have bypassed step 2, right into step 3, by "exposing the lies and falsehood", they have been made to believe! (can you say delusion/s?)

I "USED" to be "like" those, who mock and scoff ones like myself now!

Until the Father did THIS some 35+ years ago!: After I finally "answered His call!"
Isaiah 28
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

.....And there I was! In the palm of His hand! My beating heart and mind! While the "rest" of me was like so much melted protoplasm spreading out a little thicker then melted wax from a candle.

And Just as Jesus' sheep know His voice?

The Fathers' Priests know His voice as well!
But, that hits pretty close to the "U" and "P" in "tulip." While "traversing and travailing" through step 2? You start seeing the "T" and the "I." The "I" being the part where the Father sez: "You don't have to like it!" Which is when I said: Yer gonna have to drag me kickin' and clawin' every step of the way!" To which He said: "GOOD!" "That's the WAY I like 'em!"
Meaning? I HAD "no choice" in the matter!

Ya see? His WORD does not go out from Him, and return VOID!
Cuz, "void" is not a word in His vocabulary!

I have since "learned", or have "worked out my salvation" through "fear (abject) and fear (reverencing/trembling)."
And, have come to realize this:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And this:
Revelation 2:17

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

It is "during" the "traversing" of step 2, you "feel" the "abject" fear!
Something, many a proud man cannot ALLOW himself to be taken to, let alone admit to!


And so, "reconcile" themselves to verses 18-20 above.

But? In so doing? They place themselves in jeopardy of being REJECTED by Christ on the LAST day!

What can I say? I'm not WILLING to TAKE "that" chance!

Might I "ask" you Chris1975?
Have you experienced something like this? :)



 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#97
I don't see any works here.

if there were works though, shouldn't everyone do them since this is scripture?

but again I don't see any works here Paul is basically pointing out the life some came from and encouraging them not to return to it

those who live that lifestyle will suffer the wrath of God

nothing about works

if we are saved from the wrath of God and have put aside how we used to live in sin, then that is not works

that is the new life in Christ, at least that appears to be what Paul is saying

reading v 11 I see we are to forgive as we have been forgiven.

I would think all of the above is normative for a person who now has their life 'hidden' in Christ

did I miss something? did the op state somewhere that 'works' save? I didn't see that but who knows

seems some people are up in arms but then I don't post in certain threads
The op thinks we do it in order to maintain salvation, if it is not done, salvation is lost

the issue is not obedience. No one would deny this

the issue is the motivation for obedience. What are we doing it for? Out of gratitude and love and trust

or do keep our salvation.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#98
The only 'work' we need to do is to repent of our sin. That aside, Christ has done it all.
Those who have been born of god have done this

there is no faith apart from repentance.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#99
The problem with most views is the single application of the word....Sanctification is dual in usage and MANY conflate the 2nd application of the word with verses out of context to peddle a losable position (salvation)........the dual usage is found in the following truths...

1. Positionally in Christ eternally <---do a study on the word IN
2. In our daily walk

The first is a sealed done deal, the latter is subject to successes and or failures.......most conflate the latter with the former and come to faulty conclusions on the eternal application of salvation.
I already stated we are positionally IN Christ and we do not have our own righteousness

if we didn't have the imputed righteousness of Christ, God would turn away from us
from my post so obviously I have studied it :) nor have I ever understood it another way

y'all need to calm down LOL!

I would hope people here know I do not believe we are saved by works since I have stated so a good many times. but the ongoing issue is that we don't ignore the passages that instruct how a Christian should be living

people will state they are IN Christ but if someone posts anything from scripture that speaks of sin or how we should live they seem to fly off the handle

it's a shame folks cannot discuss anything outside of the 'not by works thread' without getting beat up
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
This passage has no relevance to the title of this thread. It is simply about the Christian walk and how one must be a new creature in Christ.

Also the ESV is just like all other modern versions. They all call themselves "Standard Versions" and revise themselves over and over again.

There are at least fifteen alterations in this passage when compared to the King James Bible which change the meaning. There are also a couple of significant omissions.

Verse 5
ESV: what is earthly in you (not the same thing as)
KJV: your members which are upon the earth


Verse 6
ESV: On account of these the wrath of God is coming...

Westcott and Hort 1881: δι' ἃ ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ

KJV: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh [on the children of disobedience] OMITTED
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550: δι' ἃ ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τῆς ἀπειθείας

Verse 8 "slander" substituted for "blasphemy" -- βλασφημίαν (blasphēmian)

The modern versions have chosen *slander* over "blasphemy* and even Thayer's (below) applies this meaning to Col 3:8. But is it justified? THAYER'S IS DELIBERATELY PERVERTING THE MEANING by also applying *slander* to Matthew 12:31 and Mark 3:28,29 which is totally false (when they have the correct meaning below that): Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men... Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

So Thayer's has chosen to deliberately mislead Christians in all these references (shown below): Matthew 12:31; Matthew 15:19; Mark 3:28; Mark 7:22; Colossians 3:8.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 988: βλασφημία
βλασφημία, βλασφημίας, ἡ, railing, reviling (Vulg.blasphemia);


a. universally, slander, detraction, speech injurious to another's good name: Matthew 12:31; Matthew 15:19; Mark 3:28; Mark 7:22; Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; 1 Timothy 6:4;Jude 1:9 (κρίσις βλασφημίας, equivalent to κρίσιςβλάσφημος in 2 Peter 2:11, a judgment pronounced in reproachful terms); Revelation 2:9.

b. specifically, impious and reproachful speech injurious to the divine majesty: Matthew 26:65; Mark 2:7 (R G); ; Luke 5:21; John 10:33; Revelation 13:5 (not Lachmann); ὄνομα orὀνόματα βλασφημίας equivalent to βλάσφημα (cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3 b.; (Buttmann, § 132, 10)): Revelation 13:1;Revelation 17:3 (R G Tr, see γέμω); τοῦ πνεύματος, genitive of the object, Matthew 12:31; πρός τόν Θεόν, Revelation 13:6. (Euripides, Plato, Demosthenes, others; for נֶאָצָה Ezekiel 35:12.) (BB. DD. under the word ; Campbell, Diss. on the Gospels, diss. ix. part ii.)

SO IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MAN-MADE WORKS, THE MODERN VERSIONS ARE MAN-MADE WORKS WHICH SHOULD ALSO BE REJECTED SINCE THEY PERVERT THE TRUTH.

I think Nehemiah said it well ^^^^^

but again, balance does not seem to be the end game, but rather squabble until your face turns blue

too bad cause maybe some folks would like to discuss other things and get past the milk