What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[GaryA]

The Day of the Lord is two things "at the same time" (in a way):

1) a 1000-year period of time

2) the first day of that 1000 years

#1 is the 1000-year reign of Christ.

#2 is the [24 hour] day of His return

Bible context determines which one is being referred to...

(Naturally, #1 always includes #2.)

 

[GaryA]

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I see this as referring to the day when He shall come to be glorified in the saints and to be admired by all them that believe. Not 'believed in that day.'

If you remove the parenthetical statement, you are left with:

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.

Grammatically speaking, you must interpret the "base-level" meaning of the sentence without the parenthetical statement - which is there to help the reader understand something related to the statement - but, does not change the base-level meaning of the statement in any way.

'believed in that day' - no
'believe in that day' - yes

So, you have:

'in all them [that believe]'
'in that day'

 

[GaryA]

So, you have:

'in all them [that believe]'
'in that day'

These prepositional phrases indicate how the words should be "taken together" (for lack of a better phrase) to determine the proper meaning.

(ran out of time making the edit on the previous post)

 

[GaryA]

The Day of the Lord is two things "at the same time" (in a way):

1) a 1000-year period of time

2) the first day of that 1000 years

#1 is the 1000-year reign of Christ.

#2 is the [24 hour] day of His return

Bible context determines which one is being referred to...

(Naturally, #1 always includes #2.)

In 2 Peter 3:10,12 ("the day of God" in verse 12), it is referring to #1.

In some places, it is referring to the actual day the Lord returns.

In some places, it is referring to the actual day the Lord returns - "and continuing"...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Day of the Lord is two things "at the same time" (in a way):
1) a 1000-year period of time
2) the first day of that 1000 years
#1 is the 1000-year reign of Christ.
#2 is the [24 hour] day of His return
Bible context determines which one is being referred to...
(Naturally, #1 always includes #2.)

Agreed, that it is that/those.

But I include the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of/IN "the Day of the Lord" for four reasons (at least):

--because of the "[unfolding] JUDGMENTS" that are included in the descriptions

--because it was a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for the Thessalonians to be [wrongly] persuaded "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" BASED ON their present and ongoing very *negative* tribulations and persecutions they were ENDURING in an ongoing sense (the context of their "setting" into which Paul was writing them, 2Th1:4)

--because "days" [any sort] always begin "the night before, at SUNDOWN" in prophecies/time-stamps that concern Israel (and this does)

--because in Paul's 1st epistle to them, he acknowledged they "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL so ARRIVES as a thief "IN THE NIGHT" (this added phrase "IN THE NIGHT" is not used in connection with this phrase when speaking of JESUS' OWN coming/presence/return, like in Rev16:15-16 [context: Armageddon-timing]); and Amos 5:18,20 states explicitly "the day of the Lord IS DARKNESS, and NOT LIGHT... even VERY DARK, and NO BRIGHTNESS IN IT" (this, of course, speaking of the FIRST ASPECT of the entire overall lengthy time-period, which is the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect--the "NIGHT WATCHES" aspect that will require their "lamps" to be "lit"--prior to His "RETURN" to the earth, which is the point-in-time of His "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect of the entire long DOTL which also runs the entire length of the MK age as well); main point being that it also includes the "DARK/DARNESS/IN THE NIGHT" and "[unfolding] JUDGMENTS" preceding His "RETURN" to the earth, which we see more thoroughly described in the SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS "judgments" starting at the BEGINNING of the 7-yr trib yrs (thus this is INCLUDED AS WELL), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [Lam2:3-4 parallel 2Th2:7b-8a], etc)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If you remove the parenthetical statement, you are left with:
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.
[…]
So, you have:
'in all them [that believe]'
'in that day'

Not sure if I understand your point correctly... but I just wanted to say that the first of the two "believe" words used in this verse (the one I think you are pointing out ^ ) is a "participle" meaning the "-ing" suffix... which at the link I provided to that verse, shows that wording to be "[in all those] having believed... [...in that day]".

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-10.htm


Besides all this ^ , in the passages that speak of His return to the earth, the necessity of their "having believed" PRIOR to His return is in evidence in those passages (IOW, for them to do so upon His return is too late).

 

[DeighAnn]

i

-because in Paul's 1st epistle to them, he acknowledged they "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL so ARRIVES as a thief "IN THE NIGHT" (this added phrase "IN THE NIGHT" is not used in connection with this phrase when speaking of JESUS' OWN coming/presence/return, like in

Because the "SUBJECT" of the conversation was NOT HIS RETURNING, but "where are the dead". He wasn't telling them any "SPECIFICS" about the Lords Day, he was being specific about "seeing their loved ones again" and how that would take place.


But does he continue on and give ANY MENTION OF A WHEN ? YES
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. HE DOESN'T COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT TO THOSE WHO KNOW HIM, ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
WHO SAYS "PEACE AND SAFETY"??

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(told you)

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.





Why does Jesus need to bring all the saints to "pre trib rapture" the saints?

And then what happens in heaven? They all go back to under the altar? Does Jesus then return to the side of God?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because the "SUBJECT" of the conversation was NOT HIS RETURNING, but "where are the dead". He wasn't telling them any "SPECIFICS" about the Lords Day, he was being specific about "seeing their loved ones again" and how that would take place.
But does he continue on and give ANY MENTION OF A WHEN ? YES
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. HE DOESN'T COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT TO THOSE WHO KNOW HIM, ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
WHO SAYS "PEACE AND SAFETY"??
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(told you)
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

I've mentioned in past posts that v.10's words [two Grk words there] are the SAME two Grk words as are used in v.6 (and it is NOT the Grk word [tho the ENGLISH word looks identical!] found in the previous chpt speaking of "the DEAD in Christ" who have DIED [/"sleep in Jesus"--NOT *that* word]).

So, I've made the point that the SEQUENCE which is repeated 3x in 2Th2 is the SAME SEQUENCE as found in 1Th4-5.

I've pointed out how 1Th5:2-3 also says the DOTL ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman with child/in labor (same word as Jesus used in His Olivet Discourse, but in the PLURAL coz He was telling about, not only the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['A CERTAIN ONE' bringing DECEPTION]," but also the whole lot of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (which I pointed out are the EQUIVALENT of the SEALS of Rev6, at the START of the 7-yr period, same as the ARRIVAL of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that Paul speaks to, here, as well as in his 2nd epistle to them (speaking of its ARRIVAL point in time, i.e. the "whose COMING" of the man of sin IN HIS TIME, parallel to Dan9:27a[26] ['FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]'], as I've said)…

Why does Jesus need to bring all the saints to "pre trib rapture" the saints?

"absent from the body... present with the Lord"... but they (the DEAD IN Christ) still are brought with Him at the point in time that they will receive their "glorified bodies" (at the time of our Rapture), which is what the "UNCLOTHED" section of 2Cor5 speaks to (meaning, "to be apart from a body for a time, UPON DEATH [for the believer]"; whereas the "CLOTHED UPON" part of that passage speaks of "to be immediately CLOTHED UPON with our 'glorified body' APART from having to die first"--this takes place AT OUR RAPTURE, for the "we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN unto..." it/"our Rapture time-slot).

And then what happens in heaven? They all go back to under the altar? Does Jesus then return to the side of God?

I do not believe the ones shown "under the altar" being spoken to in Rev6:9,11 are those having died "in this present age [singular]" (i.e. NOW), but are instead those who will have died IN/DURING the first four-five seals which unfold in the first, say, 1/4 of the future trib years (FOLLOWING our Rapture), which is the same thing as what Jesus had said in His Olivet Discourse (recall I see the SEALS as EQUATED to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" [like, the first four SEALS] taking place at the START of the 7-yr trib [AFTER our Rapture]), so that Matthew 24:9 then gets to the "Then shall they deliver you [the "proleptic 'you'"] to be afflicted, AND SHALL KILL YOU: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for My name's sake"--this is still in the FIRST HALF of the trib, which is parallel to the FIFTH SEAL we see here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ so all that's being said there is that there's lots more saints that's gotta be killed before this time-span [the trib] is completely over and you can get your "resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth]" body (at the same time-slot that the OT saints will also be "resurrected" per Dan12:13 [at the END of the days being spoken of in that context (i.e. END of TRIB)], and per Job19:25-27, and per [what Martha said in] Jn11:24-26, etc--something OT saints already WELL-KNEW, there was NO "MYSTERY" about THAT. They well-knew of "resurrection"! (They were not promised "RAPTURE" It does not pertain to them. It pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [all those saved "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)])

 

[DeighAnn]

1 Thessalonians 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

{Quote}I've pointed out how 1Th5:2-3 also says the DOTL ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman with child/in labor (same word as Jesus used in His Olivet Discourse, but in the PLURAL coz He was telling about, not only the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 {Quote}

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape. (ODIN)

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (ODINON)

Am I correct in that the difference between "SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH" and calling it a "PANG" and "THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS" and calling them "PANGS"
that you have concluded they are different events at different times? and different arrivals of the coming of the Lord????? AND IF NOT WHAT IS YOUR POINT??

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:


1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night, nor of darkness
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
(WE SHOULD NOT FALL ASLEEP ON THE JOB, NOT DEATH SLEEP)

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(WHETHER WE ARE AWAKE OR ASLEEP IN OUR BEDS WE LIVE WITH CHRIST)


{Quote}So, I've made the point that the SEQUENCE which is repeated 3x in 2Th2 is the SAME SEQUENCE as found in 1Th4-5. {Quote}

Once again, I don't see at all what you are talking about, surprise surprise. But I must tell you, it is truly to difficult to figure out for me, so If I skip a bunch of stuff don't be offended, I just don't have the time or energy sometimes.

1 Thessalonians 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.



2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ and shall deceive many.

 

[GaryA]

@Ahwatukee

You say that there "He doesn't say a word about going back to heaven with Him." So let's pick apart the scripture.

"In my Father's house are many mansions"

The Father's house is without a doubt in heaven. Would you not agree?

"if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you"

Then in the line above, Jesus says that He is going to prepare a place for us. The "place" that He is going to prepare for us would be in the Father's house, which He previously mentioned

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Then Jesus says that since He is going to prepare places for us, which again is in the Father's house and which is in heaven, then He is going to come again and receive us to himself so that where He is we can be with Him.

I shouldn't even have to explain this, because it is straight forward in its meaning. So, I don't know how you could say that Jesus doesn't say anything about taking us back to heaven. That Jesus is taking us back to heaven can be deduced from verse two alone:

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

In my Father's house = heaven

I go and prepare a place for you = In the Father's house

I have a question for you...

To my knowledge, I don't think there is a pre-tribber anywhere that doesn't believe that the passage you quote above is specifically referring to an 'eternal' home with Christ.

So - why do you insist on believing that you will only live in "your mansion" for seven years?

The Bible tells us that we will reign with Christ for 1000 years on earth - followed by eternity with Christ after the Judgment and the New Heaven and Earth are created.

No one (human) will live in [the third] heaven for eternity...

I suggest to you that "your mansion" that is being prepared for you is in the New Jerusalem city.

It may be in [the third] heaven now - but, it's going to be on the New Earth for eternity.

"Food for thought..."

I'm still curious about what answer pretribbers have for this question...

Are you going to "move in" to your mansion only to have to "move out" seven years later?

How do you fit this into "your deal"...?

 

[Absolutely]

There is a Biblical reason to believe the saints will have a 'U-Turn'. Paul says the saints will be resurrected and caught up to meet the Lord in the air, but Revelation shows resurrected ones ruling and reigning with Christ 1000 years. Pre-trib just makes the U-Turn take seven years.

Where is their evidence for Christ making a U-Turn, showing up in the sky, then going back to heaven?

Nope,...and this is HUGE.

Postribbers doctrine prevents the resurrected or raptured alive saints from seeing heaven.

So all the buisness in heaven as depicted at the last supper eliminates the bride TOTALLY.

Not only that,rev 19 would be false,because the bride has become the wife IN HEAVEN.

Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.
...but works "perfectly" in that doctrines adherents,by simply omitting the pretrib verses.

That is an inescapable fact

 

[presidente]

Nope,...and this is HUGE.

Postribbers doctrine prevents the resurrected or raptured alive saints from seeing heaven.

So all the buisness in heaven as depicted at the last supper eliminates the bride TOTALLY.

Not only that,rev 19 would be false,because the bride has become the wife IN HEAVEN.

Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.
...but works "perfectly" in that doctrines adherents,by simply omitting the pretrib verses.

That is an inescapable fact

Why is this a problem? Can you show the verses that make it essential for saints to be in heaven and we can discuss them?

In Revelation 19, John hears the voices of many people in heaven. So their voices are in heaven (or rise to heaven and are heard there is a possibility. This is a vision after all.) There is an announcement of the marriage supper, and then after this announcement and a few comments about the saints and John's reaction, we read the passage about The Word of God on a white horse, the armies of heaven with Him. The birds are then invited to feast on the flesh of kings at the supper of our God.

Again, this is a passage that you read pre-trib into. If one does not believe in pre-trib, there is no reason to see this as pre-trib. Why would Jesus return right after the announcement of the marriage supper of the Lamb? Where is the scene of the supper taking place in heaven?

You can hear pre-trib teaching over and over and over again until you just think certain passages are talking about it. My criticism of pre-trib is that it is read into scripture instead of taught in it, and that it does not line up with other scriptures. There have to be two parousia, or the parousia has to last for years and years. It doesn't make sense in light of the writings of Paul.

There is also the issue of 'heaven' used as a euphemism, since one Gospel says kingdom of heaven where another says kingdom of God. Many will come from the east and west and sit down at the feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of God. Does that have to take place in heaven?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape. (ODIN)

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (ODINON)

Am I correct in that the difference between "SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH" and calling it a "PANG" and "THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS" and calling them "PANGS"
that you have concluded they are different events at different times? and different arrivals of the coming of the Lord????? AND IF NOT WHAT IS YOUR POINT??

No. I'm saying they start at the same moment [coz they ARE the SAME THING]; and

that this is not the moment of JESUS' Own ARRIVAL/RETURN to the earth, but is the START of the "[earthly-] TIME-PERIOD" (of "judgments unfolding upon the earth") that LEAD UP TO His "RETURN" (to the earth).

I'll be back [way] later tonight to try to clarify better. I only had a minute, here.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

 

[Wall]

EZEKIEL 37

[3] And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. [4] Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. [5] Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I WILL CAUSE BREATH TO ENTER INTO YOU, AND YE SHALL LIVE: [6] AND I WILL LAY SINEWS UPON YOU, AND WILL BRING UP FLESH UPON YOU, AND COVER YOU WITH SKIN, AND PUT BREATH IN YOU, AND YE SHALL LIVE; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. [7] So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. [8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the BREATH CAME INTO THEM, AND THEY LIVED, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. [11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. [13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I HAVE OPENED YOUR GRAVES, O MY PEOPLE, AND BROUGHT YOU UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, [14] And shall put my spirit in you, and YE SHALL LIVE, AND I SHALL PLACE YOU IN YOUR OWN LAND: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Theres ONLY 2 general resurrections to come. The 1Cor.15 event and the great white throne event. Must you claim there is no resurrection found in Ezek.37 for your pre-trib rapture to be real. If you can find a resurrection in Ezek.37 does your pre-trib rapture go down the drain?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EZEKIEL 37
[3] And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live?
[…]
Theres ONLY 2 general resurrections to come. The 1Cor.15 event and the great white throne event. Must you claim there is no resurrection found in Ezek.37 for your pre-trib rapture to be real. If you can find a resurrection in Ezek.37 does your pre-trib rapture go down the drain?

I've repeatedly included "Ezek37:12-14,20-23 [and context]" in the sections where I LIST the related passages pertaining to "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered" (rather than these being a reference to "formerly-deceased persons being resurrected from the dead, bodily/physically).

Those related passages being: Hosea 5:15-6:3; Isaiah 26:16-21; Romans 11:15[25]; Daniel 12:1-4,10; and Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 [distinct from Rom9:25/Hos2:23b speaking distinctly of "the Gentiles"]; etc [meaning, AND MORE], where these are speaking of Israel's FUTURE and that it is LIKENED UNTO "a resurrection"



[recall also what I'd said about "[re: resurrection] but each [<--a word meaning, "of more than two"] IN HIS OWN ORDER" and "blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART [G3313] IN the resurrection the first [the one which is "the resurrection OF LIFE" and how the 2Ws are "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" at a distinct "time-slot" from anyone else... these things are to be well-noted]

 

[Wall]

I've repeatedly included "Ezek37:12-14,20-23 [and context]" in the sections where I LIST the related passages pertaining to "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered"

Youve repeately included many things. But you have not answered my question. Ill ask again. If you can find a resurrection in Ezek.37 does your pre-trib rapture go down the drain?

 

[Wall]

I've repeatedly included "Ezek37:12-14,20-23 [and context]" in the sections where I LIST the related passages pertaining to "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered"

Nope Zeke 37 speakes of the 4 winds

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Zeke 37 also speaks of a resurrection {1Cor.15?}. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.

 

[Wall]

I've repeatedly included "Ezek37:12-14,20-23 [and context]" in the sections where I LIST the related passages pertaining to "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered"

Keep reading Ezek.37

Ezek.37
[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Is Gods sanctuary in their midst? NOPE! Is His tabernacle There? NOPE!

 

[Absolutely]

Why is this a problem? Can you show the verses that make it essential for saints to be in heaven and we can discuss them?

In Revelation 19, John hears the voices of many people in heaven. So their voices are in heaven (or rise to heaven and are heard there is a possibility. This is a vision after all.) There is an announcement of the marriage supper, and then after this announcement and a few comments about the saints and John's reaction, we read the passage about The Word of God on a white horse, the armies of heaven with Him. The birds are then invited to feast on the flesh of kings at the supper of our God.

Again, this is a passage that you read pre-trib into. If one does not believe in pre-trib, there is no reason to see this as pre-trib. Why would Jesus return right after the announcement of the marriage supper of the Lamb? Where is the scene of the supper taking place in heaven?

You can hear pre-trib teaching over and over and over again until you just think certain passages are talking about it. My criticism of pre-trib is that it is read into scripture instead of taught in it, and that it does not line up with other scriptures. There have to be two parousia, or the parousia has to last for years and years. It doesn't make sense in light of the writings of Paul.

There is also the issue of 'heaven' used as a euphemism, since one Gospel says kingdom of heaven where another says kingdom of God. Many will come from the east and west and sit down at the feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of God. Does that have to take place in heaven?

Test fit your position.
Your position is that the dead in christ rise after the harvest of the living(rev 14's 2 gatherings.)

So,since that is impossible,your need for the raptured saints to never see heaven (postrib invented u turn) is not binding my for the pretrib verses.

So your energy is misplaced.

Every postrib "rapture verse"you come up with is a reframed verse.

Since your position CAN NOT BE you guys resort to reframed,misapplied TERMS
Trumpet ..any trumpet must be the last trump
Endure to the end...misframed as going through the gt
Before the flood reframed to "after the flood"
Lot...reframed into "uh,well,he didnt leave earth...or went into the sky"

Gathering of the bride in mat 25 becomes a multible choice of none of the major factors being what they are vividly painted as. (Must be reframed) dear Lord have mercy.