James 2v21 (worth its own thread I think)
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Not all Israel is of Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 33:29, Jacob/Israel is a called out group from the nation of Israel which represents the church, his elect, Rom 9:11-13. A large amount of the time when Israel is mentioned in the scriptures it is referring to Jacob/Israel, the elect.
Note here that a man believes in Jesus Christ to be justified by Christ’s own faith, His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. Believing comes first.
Galatians 2:16 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Broski we have this thread called NOT BY WORKS thats already sort of been covering this topic for THOUSANDS OF PAGES. The debate is still going on.
Brother @Deuteronomy already shut this thread down by explaining it in a simple yet biblical way. THANKS
Brother @Deuteronomy already shut this thread down by explaining it in a simple yet biblical way. THANKS
E
1. Abraham was declaired righteous when he believed in god, and god accounted it to him as righteousness see romans 4)
2. His faith was justified, not himself. Abraham was justified in Gen 15: 6
james is talking about people who CLAIM to have faith, he never said they ever had living faith, 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith
Then he asked the question. Can that particular faith (which he later called dead) save him? but does not have works? Can faith save him?
and his answer is, if he has zero works (no works whatsoever, not now not ever) his faith is dead. Ie, unable to save.
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
faith without works equals faith alone, faith devoid of works, a dead faith, Ie a faith that is not living, powerless to do anything. His point? True living faith works, he used the example of Abraham, who do more than just believe, his faith grow so much he offered his son. (The extreme example)
james was fighting a licentious gospel. A gospel, of mere belief, that says you can believe Jesus, and your ok, no repentance, not trust, no real,admitting your even guilty, just say a prayer and bam your saved
1. no one here teaches this nonsense, so not sure why your even asking, because no one believes it
2. You have james contradicting Paul in Rom 4 where paul, says if abraham was found by his righteous deeds (work) he has something to boast (he could take credit for saving himself)
2. His faith was justified, not himself. Abraham was justified in Gen 15: 6
james is talking about people who CLAIM to have faith, he never said they ever had living faith, 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith
Then he asked the question. Can that particular faith (which he later called dead) save him? but does not have works? Can faith save him?
and his answer is, if he has zero works (no works whatsoever, not now not ever) his faith is dead. Ie, unable to save.
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
faith without works equals faith alone, faith devoid of works, a dead faith, Ie a faith that is not living, powerless to do anything. His point? True living faith works, he used the example of Abraham, who do more than just believe, his faith grow so much he offered his son. (The extreme example)
james was fighting a licentious gospel. A gospel, of mere belief, that says you can believe Jesus, and your ok, no repentance, not trust, no real,admitting your even guilty, just say a prayer and bam your saved
1. no one here teaches this nonsense, so not sure why your even asking, because no one believes it
2. You have james contradicting Paul in Rom 4 where paul, says if abraham was found by his righteous deeds (work) he has something to boast (he could take credit for saving himself)
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Yes a person cannot separate works from faith. It was the faith of Christ working in Abraham that moved him to both will and do the good pleasure of God. Same work of faith that worked in the Son of man, Jesus .Aa picture of the father and Son working to bring the peace of God that surpasses our understanding.
In the end of the matter its whose faith we attribute the work to ? The creature or the Creator? It would apply the same as with Rahab as with Abraham . . . . the mutual faith of Christ who works in all who beleive .
Works of faith as a labor of love.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith(Christ's) wrought with his( Christs) works, and by works was faith(Christ's) made perfect? 21-22
It is why the opening commandment in that chapter sets the stage for Rahab and Abraham .The context of the work of faith labor of love. .
Do not have the faith coming from God in respect to persons seen Like Abraham and Rehab or us, we walk by the unseen eternal. Just as the Son of man, Jesus.
James 2 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philippians 2: 12-14
In the end of the matter its whose faith we attribute the work to ? The creature or the Creator? It would apply the same as with Rahab as with Abraham . . . . the mutual faith of Christ who works in all who beleive .
Works of faith as a labor of love.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith(Christ's) wrought with his( Christs) works, and by works was faith(Christ's) made perfect? 21-22
It is why the opening commandment in that chapter sets the stage for Rahab and Abraham .The context of the work of faith labor of love. .
Do not have the faith coming from God in respect to persons seen Like Abraham and Rehab or us, we walk by the unseen eternal. Just as the Son of man, Jesus.
James 2 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philippians 2: 12-14
All of the good works Christ works in us to both will and do his good pleasure. We should do them without murmuring or complaining what about this person or that? And remember the better things that accompany redemption in so much that God will not forget the good works we do offer towards his holy name. He is the just and justifier of our new faith. Just as he was with Abraham and Rehab when it worked in them.
Justification is a legal term. It means 'pronounce or show to be just'. It doesn't mean 'cause to become just''.
Anyone or anything can justify someone or something (whether rightly or wrongly).
Publicans justify God:
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luke 7:29 (KJV)
Wisdom's children justify wisdom:
But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Luke 7:35 (KJV)
Pharisees justify themselves:
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luke 16:15 (KJV)
In James 2, works do the pronouncing or showing.
Abraham's work of offering Isaac showed him to be just (justified him) but didn't cause him to become just.
Rahab's work of helping the spies showed her to be just (justified her) but didn't cause her to become just.
If we cloth & feed a needy brother or sister - that work justifies us.
Faith alone can't 'save' (v. 14) us from receiving the 'judgement without mercy' (v. 13) that comes our way when we disrespect the poor man in our assembly (vv. 1-13). This 'saving' is not eternal salvation; that's accomplished by faith alone.
Anyone or anything can justify someone or something (whether rightly or wrongly).
Publicans justify God:
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luke 7:29 (KJV)
Wisdom's children justify wisdom:
But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Luke 7:35 (KJV)
Pharisees justify themselves:
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luke 16:15 (KJV)
In James 2, works do the pronouncing or showing.
Abraham's work of offering Isaac showed him to be just (justified him) but didn't cause him to become just.
Rahab's work of helping the spies showed her to be just (justified her) but didn't cause her to become just.
If we cloth & feed a needy brother or sister - that work justifies us.
Faith alone can't 'save' (v. 14) us from receiving the 'judgement without mercy' (v. 13) that comes our way when we disrespect the poor man in our assembly (vv. 1-13). This 'saving' is not eternal salvation; that's accomplished by faith alone.
The works of Christ's faith as a labor of His love were needed for salvation. It appeased the wrath of the father who worked with Christ.
The first verse in chapter 2 as a commandment sets the context of the whole chapter. Do not have the work of Christ's faith that works in mankind in respect to oneself or any person our eyes see.
The first verse in chapter 2 as a commandment sets the context of the whole chapter. Do not have the work of Christ's faith that works in mankind in respect to oneself or any person our eyes see.
Lets go to the next verses:
James 2v22
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2v24
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
>No justification by WORKS ALONE
>Justification is by FAITH
>Faith, in order for it to be true faith, has associated works (works are the evidence of faith)
>Justification by Faith and Works (Re read verse 24. Argue. Then re-read verse 24).
>We don't work to show our faith. Our work flows from our Faith. In essence the life of a Christian lived in faith is accompanied by works, which God prepared for us beforehand, that we should walk in them.
James 2v22
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2v24
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
>No justification by WORKS ALONE
>Justification is by FAITH
>Faith, in order for it to be true faith, has associated works (works are the evidence of faith)
>Justification by Faith and Works (Re read verse 24. Argue. Then re-read verse 24).
>We don't work to show our faith. Our work flows from our Faith. In essence the life of a Christian lived in faith is accompanied by works, which God prepared for us beforehand, that we should walk in them.
E
Why did you ignore my response. and think you can just move on?
ps. Faith is never alone, your wrong for thinking it will ever be alone.
living faith will work. Not might, thats your problem
james said if one claims to have faith, but have zero zip nada works. Their faith is dead. Non living, will never save anyone
paul said we are not saved by works, else we can boast. But those saved are created for works which they will do. (Eph 10)
youbring Paul and James to opposition when they are not, it is your faulty understanding of the correct text and audience of these two great men of god which is in opposition.
ps. Faith is never alone, your wrong for thinking it will ever be alone.
living faith will work. Not might, thats your problem
james said if one claims to have faith, but have zero zip nada works. Their faith is dead. Non living, will never save anyone
paul said we are not saved by works, else we can boast. But those saved are created for works which they will do. (Eph 10)
youbring Paul and James to opposition when they are not, it is your faulty understanding of the correct text and audience of these two great men of god which is in opposition.
E
Yet I answered and all you have to say is I lack comprehension?
i used the same words of scripture you used and showed you what I see, I did not ignore them
how about discussing what I said by proving me wrong in context instead of making a strawman?
if you can not, then I will just continue to go knowing I must have the right interpretation since you can not counter me. And others will see the same
i used the same words of scripture you used and showed you what I see, I did not ignore them
how about discussing what I said by proving me wrong in context instead of making a strawman?
if you can not, then I will just continue to go knowing I must have the right interpretation since you can not counter me. And others will see the same