Why is Jesus referred to as the Morning Star?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#21
Babylons had their own mountain of god. The context is not the heaven we believe in.

I have posted evidence on this before.

Isaiah 14:9-11 Good News Translation (GNT)
9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”
who was in charge you think of them
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#22
6 Types of Figurative Language Enhance Your Writing With These 6 Types of Figurative Language
Does "coffee shop is an ice box!" describe cold? a condition?
Does "She's happy as a clam" mean a person is happy? describing an emotion?
Does "I move fast like a cheetah on the Serengeti" an action?
Does "The sea lashed out in anger at the ships, unwilling to tolerate another battle" describing a storm that is happening in a story?
Does "snap crackle pop" describe the sound a cereal makes when you poor milk on it? an action.
Does "It happens once in a blue moon" mean something happened?
Does "Jacob … breathed his last, and was gathered to his people" mean he died?
Does "Their hearts melted" mean they lost courage?

Figurative language is used to describe what really happened. Just because something uses such language does not mean it did not happen.(emphasis)

Hebrew was my first language as a child, and we learned that figurative language in Hebrew does describe something that really happened.

Now looking back at Isaiah 14 In Hebrew, I will highlight the only figures of speech there I see. There is more than enough literalness in the text to understand it as something that happened. In fact, that is how my Rabbi taught the text. Any figurative language in Isaiah 14 does not contradict the meaning of the passage.

Isaiah 14 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Return from Exile
14 The Lord will once again be merciful to his people Israel and choose them as his own. He will let them live in their own land again, and foreigners will come and live there with them. 2 Many nations will help the people of Israel return to the land which the Lord gave them, and there the nations will serve Israel as slaves. Those who once captured Israel will now be captured by Israel, and the people of Israel will rule over those who once oppressed them.

The King of Babylon in the World of the Dead

3 The Lord will give the people of Israel relief from their pain and suffering and from the hard work they were forced to do. 4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:

“The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again! 5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers 6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered. 7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy. 8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!

9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”

12 King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground. 13 You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble. 14 You said you would climb to the tops of the clouds and be like the Almighty. 15 But instead, you have been brought down to the deepest part of the world of the dead.

16 The dead will stare and gape at you. They will ask, “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble? 17 Is this the man who destroyed cities and turned the world into a desert? Is this the man who never freed his prisoners or let them go home?”

18 All the kings of the earth lie in their magnificent tombs, 19 but you have no tomb, and your corpse is thrown out to rot. It is covered by the bodies of soldiers killed in battle, thrown with them into a rocky pit, and trampled down. 20 Because you ruined your country and killed your own people, you will not be buried like other kings. None of your evil family will survive. 21 Let the slaughter begin! The sons of this king will die because of their ancestors' sins. None of them will ever rule the earth or cover it with cities.

God Will Destroy Babylon
22 The Lord Almighty says, “I will attack Babylon and bring it to ruin. I will leave nothing—no children, no survivors at all. I, the Lord, have spoken. 23 I will turn Babylon into a marsh, and owls will live there. I will sweep Babylon with a broom that will sweep everything away. I, the Lord Almighty, have spoken.”

God Will Destroy the Assyrians
24 The Lord Almighty has sworn an oath: “What I have planned will happen. What I have determined to do will be done. 25 I will destroy the Assyrians in my land of Israel and trample them on my mountains. I will free my people from the Assyrian yoke and from the burdens they have had to bear. 26 This is my plan for the world, and my arm is stretched out to punish the nations.” 27 The Lord Almighty is determined to do this; he has stretched out his arm to punish, and no one can stop him.

God Will Destroy the Philistines
28 This is a message that was proclaimed in the year that King Ahaz died.

29 People of Philistia, the rod that beat you is broken, but you have no reason to be glad. When one snake dies, a worse one comes in its place. A snake's egg hatches a flying dragon. 30 The Lord will be a shepherd to the poor of his people and will let them live in safety. But he will send a terrible famine on you Philistines, and it will not leave any of you alive.

31 Howl and cry for help, all you Philistine cities! Be terrified, all of you! A cloud of dust is coming from the north—it is an army with no cowards in its ranks.

32 How shall we answer the messengers that come to us from Philistia? We will tell them that the Lord has established Zion and that his suffering people will find safety there.


JOURNAL ARTICLE
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon
A. R. George
Orientalia
NOVA SERIES, Vol. 66, No. 1 (1997), pp. 65-70
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon on JSTOR

"Ea, Enki, and the younger gods fight against Tiamat futilely until, from among them, emerges the champion Marduk who swears he will defeat Tiamat. Marduk defeats Quingu and kills Tiamat by shooting her with an arrow which splits her in two; from her eyes flow the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Out of Tiamat's corpse, Marduk creates the heavens and the earth, he appoints gods to various duties and binds Tiamat's eleven creatures to his feet as trophies (to much adulation from the other gods) before setting their images in his new home. He also takes the Tablets of Destiny from Quingu, thus legitimizing his reign."Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text

Resources » Encyclopedia of The Bible » M » Mount of Assembly

MOUNT OF ASSEMBLY (הַר־מﯴעֵ֖ד). The prophet Isaiah contrasted the once haughty boastings of the king of Babylon with his present weak and helpless condition. He aspired to sit upon the mount of congregation—apparently some fancied Babylonian Olympus of the gods, but he has been cast down to the depths of Sheol (Isa 14:12-15; KJV, ASV MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION).

Religion and Power: Divine Kingship in the Ancient World and Beyond ...

https://oi.uchicago.edu/.../religion-and-power-divine-kingship-ancient-world-and-bey...


After Shu-Sin the divinization kings was abandoned once more. Whether the kings of the Old Babylonian period (c. 2000–1595 BCE) can be considered divine is still subject to debate. Some consider the kings Rim-Sin of Larsa (1822–1763 BCE) and the famous Hammurabi of Babylon (1792–1750 BCE) to have been divine.
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#23
6 Types of Figurative Language Enhance Your Writing With These 6 Types of Figurative Language
Does "coffee shop is an ice box!" describe cold? a condition?
Does "She's happy as a clam" mean a person is happy? describing an emotion?
Does "I move fast like a cheetah on the Serengeti" an action?
Does "The sea lashed out in anger at the ships, unwilling to tolerate another battle" describing a storm that is happening in a story?
Does "snap crackle pop" describe the sound a cereal makes when you poor milk on it? an action.
Does "It happens once in a blue moon" mean something happened?
Does "Jacob … breathed his last, and was gathered to his people" mean he died?
Does "Their hearts melted" mean they lost courage?

Figurative language is used to describe what really happened. Just because something uses such language does not mean it did not happen.(emphasis)

Hebrew was my first language as a child, and we learned that figurative language in Hebrew does describe something that really happened.

Now looking back at Isaiah 14 In Hebrew, I will highlight the only figures of speech there I see. There is more than enough literalness in the text to understand it as something that happened. In fact, that is how my Rabbi taught the text. Any figurative language in Isaiah 14 does not contradict the meaning of the passage.

Isaiah 14 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Return from Exile
14 The Lord will once again be merciful to his people Israel and choose them as his own. He will let them live in their own land again, and foreigners will come and live there with them. 2 Many nations will help the people of Israel return to the land which the Lord gave them, and there the nations will serve Israel as slaves. Those who once captured Israel will now be captured by Israel, and the people of Israel will rule over those who once oppressed them.

The King of Babylon in the World of the Dead

3 The Lord will give the people of Israel relief from their pain and suffering and from the hard work they were forced to do. 4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:

“The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again! 5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers 6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered. 7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy. 8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!

9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”

12 King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground. 13 You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble. 14 You said you would climb to the tops of the clouds and be like the Almighty. 15 But instead, you have been brought down to the deepest part of the world of the dead.

16 The dead will stare and gape at you. They will ask, “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble? 17 Is this the man who destroyed cities and turned the world into a desert? Is this the man who never freed his prisoners or let them go home?”

18 All the kings of the earth lie in their magnificent tombs, 19 but you have no tomb, and your corpse is thrown out to rot. It is covered by the bodies of soldiers killed in battle, thrown with them into a rocky pit, and trampled down. 20 Because you ruined your country and killed your own people, you will not be buried like other kings. None of your evil family will survive. 21 Let the slaughter begin! The sons of this king will die because of their ancestors' sins. None of them will ever rule the earth or cover it with cities.

God Will Destroy Babylon
22 The Lord Almighty says, “I will attack Babylon and bring it to ruin. I will leave nothing—no children, no survivors at all. I, the Lord, have spoken. 23 I will turn Babylon into a marsh, and owls will live there. I will sweep Babylon with a broom that will sweep everything away. I, the Lord Almighty, have spoken.”

God Will Destroy the Assyrians
24 The Lord Almighty has sworn an oath: “What I have planned will happen. What I have determined to do will be done. 25 I will destroy the Assyrians in my land of Israel and trample them on my mountains. I will free my people from the Assyrian yoke and from the burdens they have had to bear. 26 This is my plan for the world, and my arm is stretched out to punish the nations.” 27 The Lord Almighty is determined to do this; he has stretched out his arm to punish, and no one can stop him.

God Will Destroy the Philistines
28 This is a message that was proclaimed in the year that King Ahaz died.

29 People of Philistia, the rod that beat you is broken, but you have no reason to be glad. When one snake dies, a worse one comes in its place. A snake's egg hatches a flying dragon. 30 The Lord will be a shepherd to the poor of his people and will let them live in safety. But he will send a terrible famine on you Philistines, and it will not leave any of you alive.

31 Howl and cry for help, all you Philistine cities! Be terrified, all of you! A cloud of dust is coming from the north—it is an army with no cowards in its ranks.

32 How shall we answer the messengers that come to us from Philistia? We will tell them that the Lord has established Zion and that his suffering people will find safety there.


JOURNAL ARTICLE
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon
A. R. George
Orientalia
NOVA SERIES, Vol. 66, No. 1 (1997), pp. 65-70
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon on JSTOR

"Ea, Enki, and the younger gods fight against Tiamat futilely until, from among them, emerges the champion Marduk who swears he will defeat Tiamat. Marduk defeats Quingu and kills Tiamat by shooting her with an arrow which splits her in two; from her eyes flow the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Out of Tiamat's corpse, Marduk creates the heavens and the earth, he appoints gods to various duties and binds Tiamat's eleven creatures to his feet as trophies (to much adulation from the other gods) before setting their images in his new home. He also takes the Tablets of Destiny from Quingu, thus legitimizing his reign."Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text

Resources » Encyclopedia of The Bible » M » Mount of Assembly

MOUNT OF ASSEMBLY (הַר־מﯴעֵ֖ד). The prophet Isaiah contrasted the once haughty boastings of the king of Babylon with his present weak and helpless condition. He aspired to sit upon the mount of congregation—apparently some fancied Babylonian Olympus of the gods, but he has been cast down to the depths of Sheol (Isa 14:12-15; KJV, ASV MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION).

Religion and Power: Divine Kingship in the Ancient World and Beyond ...
https://oi.uchicago.edu/.../religion-and-power-divine-kingship-ancient-world-and-bey...


After Shu-Sin the divinization kings was abandoned once more. Whether the kings of the Old Babylonian period (c. 2000–1595 BCE) can be considered divine is still subject to debate. Some consider the kings Rim-Sin of Larsa (1822–1763 BCE) and the famous Hammurabi of Babylon (1792–1750 BCE) to have been divine.
Well that seems off to me, seems that translation blinded alittle to much

12 King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#24
12 King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven!In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground. 13 You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble. 14 You said you would climb to the tops of the clouds and be like the Almighty. 15 But instead, you have been brought down to the deepest part of the world of the dead.

16 The dead will stare and gape at you. They will ask, “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble? 17 Is this the man who destroyed cities and turned the world into a desert? Is this the man who never freed his prisoners or let them go home?”

JOURNAL ARTICLE
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon
A. R. George
Orientalia
NOVA SERIES, Vol. 66, No. 1 (1997), pp. 65-70
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon on JSTOR

"Ea, Enki, and the younger gods fight against Tiamat futilely until, from among them, emerges the champion Marduk who swears he will defeat Tiamat. Marduk defeats Quingu and kills Tiamat by shooting her with an arrow which splits her in two; from her eyes flow the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Out of Tiamat's corpse, Marduk creates the heavens and the earth, he appoints gods to various duties and binds Tiamat's eleven creatures to his feet as trophies (to much adulation from the other gods) before setting their images in his new home. He also takes the Tablets of Destiny from Quingu, thus legitimizing his reign."Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text

Resources » Encyclopedia of The Bible » M » Mount of Assembly

MOUNT OF ASSEMBLY (הַר־מﯴעֵ֖ד). The prophet Isaiah contrasted the once haughty boastings of the king of Babylon with his present weak and helpless condition. He aspired to sit upon the mount of congregation—apparently some fancied Babylonian Olympus of the gods, but he has been cast down to the depths of Sheol (Isa 14:12-15; KJV, ASV MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION).

Religion and Power: Divine Kingship in the Ancient World and Beyond ...

https://oi.uchicago.edu/.../religion-and-power-divine-kingship-ancient-world-and-bey...

After Shu-Sin the divinization kings was abandoned once more. Whether the kings of the Old Babylonian period (c. 2000–1595 BCE) can be considered divine is still subject to debate. Some consider the kings Rim-Sin of Larsa (1822–1763 BCE) and the famous Hammurabi of Babylon (1792–1750 BCE) to have been divine.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#25
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).

2 Peter 1:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2 Peter 1:19 Good News Translation (GNT)
19 So we are even more confident of the message proclaimed by the prophets. You will do well to pay attention to it, because it is like a lamp shining in a dark place until the Day dawns and the light of the morning star shines in your hearts.

Augustine wrote, "As for what John says about the devil, The devil sins from the beginning 1 John 3:8 they who suppose it is meant hereby that the devil was made with a sinful nature, misunderstand it; for if sin be natural, it is not sinat all. And how do they answer the prophetic proofs — either what Isaiah says when he represents the devilunder the person of the king of Babylon, How are you fallen, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Isaiah 14:12 or " CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book XI (St. Augustine)

"expressly directed against the King of Babylon, but both the early Fathers and later Catholic commentators agree in understanding it as applying with deeper significance to the fall of the rebel angel. "
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Devil
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#26
Isaiah 14:13 13 You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#27
It happens to be for English as a Second Language, for children.

The word Lucifer comes from the Latin Vulgate, not Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. The word behind Lucifer refers to the planet Venus as the morning star!!!!! That Greek word for Lucifer is even used of Jesus himself.
You need to study in the culture of the day. Not, by the traditions of men. As I recall Satan was the chief angel which would exclude him from being one of the morning stars.

Job 3:9
Keep the morning star from shining; give that night no hope of dawn.

Sirach 50:6
He was like the morning star shining through the clouds, like the full moon,

Isaiah 14:12
King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.

2 Peter 1:19
So we are even more confident of the message proclaimed by the prophets. You will do well to pay attention to it, because it is like a lamp shining in a dark place until the Day dawns and the light of the morning star shines in your hearts.

Revelation 2:26-28
To those who win the victory, who continue to the end to do what I want, I will give the same authority that I received from my Father: I will give them authority over the nations, to rule them with an iron rod and to break them to pieces like clay pots. I will also give them the morning star.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to announce these things to you in the churches. I am descended from the family of David; I am the bright morning star.”
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#28
A huge issue with doing that as did the GNT is this from their own bible.

Rev 22
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to announce these things to you in the churches. I am descended from the family of David; I am the bright morning star.”
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#29
Fact is, Venus aka Mourning Star is applied to Jesus too.

Isaiah 14:11-12 The Message (MSG)
11 This is where your pomp and fine music led you, Babylon,
to your underworld private chambers,
A king-size mattress of maggots for repose
and a quilt of crawling worms for warmth.

12 What a comedown this, O Babylon!
Daystar! Son of Dawn!
Flat on your face in the underworld mud,
you, famous for flattening nations!

Satan was never buried, the Kind of Babylon was.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to announce these things to you in the churches. I am descended from the family of David; I am the bright morning star.”
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#30
Job 3:9
Keep the morning star from shining; give that night no hope of dawn.

Sirach 50:6
He was like the morning star shining through the clouds, like the full moon,

Isaiah 14:12
King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.

The following is about Jesus mostly.

2 Peter 1:19
So we are even more confident of the message proclaimed by the prophets. You will do well to pay attention to it, because it is like a lamp shining in a dark place until the Day dawns and the light of the morning star shines in your hearts.

Revelation 2:26-28
To those who win the victory, who continue to the end to do what I want, I will give the same authority that I received from my Father: I will give them authority over the nations, to rule them with an iron rod and to break them to pieces like clay pots. I will also give them the morning star.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to announce these things to you in the churches. I am descended from the family of David; I am the bright morning star.”
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#31
Jesus is not satan and is not a good idea to reference the two
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#32

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#33
He shall rule (poimanei). Future active of poimainw, to shepherd (from poimhn, shepherd), also from Psalms 2:8 . See again Revelation 7:17 ; Revelation 12:5 ; Revelation 19:15 . With a rod of iron (en rabdwi sidhrai). Continuing the quotation. Instrumental use of en. Rabdo (feminine) is the royal sceptre and indicates rigorous rule. The vessels of the potter (ta skeuh ta keramika). Old adjective, belonging to a potter (kerameu, keramo), here only in N.T. Are broken to shivers (suntribetai). Present passive indicative of suntribw, old verb, to rub together, to break in pieces ( Mark 14:3 ).
Revelation 2:28
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament /
As I also have received (w kagw eilhpa). Perfect active indicative of lambanw. Christ still possesses the power from the Father ( Acts 2:33 ; Psalms 2:7). The morning star (ton astera ton prwinon). "The star the morning one." InPsalms 22:16 Christ is the bright morning star. The victor will have Christ himself.
28. the morning star--that is, I will give unto him Myself, who am "the morning star" ( Revelation 22:16 ); so that reflecting My perfect brightness, he shall shine like Me, the morning star, and share My kingly glory (of which a star is the symbol, Numbers 21:17 , Matthew 2:2 ). Compare Revelation 2:17 , "I will give him . . . the hidden manna," that is, Myself, who am that manna ( John 6:31-33 ).Revelation 2 Commentary - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, 'Dawn Lord,' was a Mesoamerican god who represented a menacing aspect of Venus, the morning star, and was one of the four gods which held up the sky.

Venus, the Morning Star
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli (also spelt Tlauixcalpantecuhtli) represented the dual aspect of the planet Venus, known to the Mesoamericans as a bright star. Venus was especially important in the religious and agricultural calendar
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli

Many myths and legends refer to the morning star and the evening star. These are not true stars but names for the planet Venus, which shines brightly near the horizon early or late in the night, depending on the time of year.
Stars | Encyclopedia.com

from strongs,

Strong's Number: 5459 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
fosforoß from (5457) and (5342)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Phosphoros 9:310,1293
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
foce-for'-os Adjective
Definition
light bringing, giving light
the planet Venus, the morning star, day star
metaph. Christ
Star, Morning
a name figuratively given to Christ ( Revelation 22:16 ; Compare 2 Peter 1:19 ). When Christ promises that he will give the "morning star" to his faithful ones, he "promises that he will give to them himself, that he will give to them himself, that he will impart to them his own glory and a share in his own royal dominion; for the star is evermore the symbol of royalty ( Matthew 2:2 ), being therefore linked with the sceptre ( Numbers 24:17 ). All the glory of the world shall end in being the glory of the Church." Trench's Comm.
Star, Morning - Easton's Bible Dictionary Online

2:28 I will give him the morning star - Thou, O Jesus, art the morning star! O give thyself to me! Then will I desire no sun, only thee, who art the sun also. He whom this star enlightens has always morning and no eveningRevelation 2 Commentary - Wesley's Explanatory Notes

The authors of the Bible was not in a vacuum. They wrote with the language and culture surrounding them. Venius as morning star refers to a King.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,925
13,607
113
#34
Isaiah 14:11-12 The Message (MSG)
11 This is where your pomp and fine music led you, Babylon,
to your underworld private chambers,
A king-size mattress of maggots for repose
and a quilt of crawling worms for warmth.

12 What a comedown this, O Babylon!
Daystar! Son of Dawn!
Flat on your face in the underworld mud,
you, famous for flattening nations!
i puke in my mouth a little every time i read something from the MSG :sick:
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#35
If Satan is chained in the pit/Abyss at this time, how is he active in our world? How did he tempt Adam and Eve?

Ephesians 2:2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
2 Yes, in the past your lives were full of those sins. You lived the way the world lives, following the ruler of the evil powers[a] that are above the earth. That same spirit is now working in those who refuse to obey God.

2 Corinthians 4:4 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
4 The ruler[a] of this world has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They cannot see the light of the Good News—the message about the divine greatness of Christ. Christ is the one who is exactly like God.

What you described is still future, also if he is asleep why chain him up or lock the door?

Revelation 20:1-3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The 1000 Years

20 I saw an angel coming down out of heaven. The angel had the key to the bottomless pit. The angel also held a large chain in his hand. 2 The angel grabbed the dragon, that old snake, also known as the devil or Satan. The angel tied the dragon with the chain for 1000 years. 3 Then the angel threw the dragon into the bottomless pit and closed it. The angel locked it over the dragon. The angel did this so that the dragon could not trick the people of the earth until the 1000 years were ended. After 1000 years the dragon must be made free for a short time.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#36
LUCIFER (Φωσφόρος):

By: Kaufmann Kohler
Septuagint translation of "Helel [read "Helal"] ben Shaḥar" (= "the brilliant one," "son of the morning"), name of the day, or morning, star, to whose mythical fate that of the King of Babylon is compared in the prophetic vision (Isa. xiv. 12-14). It is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star; and Gunkel ("Schöpfung und Chaos," pp. 132-134) is undoubtedly correct when he holds that it represents a Babylonian or Hebrew star-myth similar to the Greek legend of Phaethon. The brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night, may easily have given rise to a myth such as was told of Ethana and Zu: he was led by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star-gods on the northern mountain of the gods (comp. Ezek. xxviii. 14; Ps. xlviii. 3 [A.V. 2]), but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus. Stars were regarded throughout antiquity as living celestial beings (Job xxxviii. 7).

The familiarity of the people of Palestine with such a myth is shown by the legend, localized on Mount Hermon, the northern mountain of Palestine and possibly the original mountain of the gods in that country, of the fall of the angels under the leadership of Samḥazai (the heaven-seizer) and Azael (Enoch, vi. 6 et seq.; see Fall of Angels). Another legend represents Samḥazai, because he repented of his sin, as being suspended between heaven and earth (like a star) instead of being hurled down to Sheol (see Midr. Abḳir in Yalḳ. i. 44; Raymund Martin, "Pugio Fidei," p. 564). The Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan in the pre-Christian century, as may be learned from Vita Adæ et Evæ (12) and Slavonic Enoch (xxix. 4, xxxi. 4), where Satan-Sataniel (Samael?) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high," Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss (comp. Test. Patr., Benjamin, 3; Ephes. ii. 2, vi. 12). Accordingly Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).LUCIFER - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The fallen angel concept is based on a mistranslation of Isaiah 14:12 – first introduced by Saint Jerome in his Latin Vulgate – where the words “morning star” (Venus) are mistranslated to “Lucifer” (the devil). The Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar was associated with the deity Ishtar/Venus and he was metaphorically thrown from heaven for his evil role in destroying Jerusalem. The word Lucifer is related to the words “lucent” and “lux” which mean shining light.
Why Jews Cannot Accept the New Testament

The name Lucifer has often been understood to be another name for the devil or the satan. This identification has a long history in the church, going back to at least the fourth century. Its origin is actually from a passage in the Old Testament from the book of Isaiah that, to some, speaks of a being cast out of heaven because of pride. Since some people see a reference to the devil being cast out of heaven in the New Testament (Rev 12:9-12; cf. Lk 10:18), they assumed that the Isaiah passage referred to the same thing.

The passage (NRSV): 14:12

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

In the King James translation, verse 12 reads:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Here is where we find the name Lucifer. The term Lucifer was popularized in English from this King James translation. However, the name does not come from the Hebrew or even from the Greek translation (Septuagint), but from the fourth century AD Latin translation of this verse:

quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.

But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words: lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring." So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light. The same word is used in other places in the Latin Vulgate to translate Hebrew terms that mean "bright," especially associated with the sky:

Job 11:17: And your life will be brighter than the noonday; its darkness will be like the morning.

2 Peter 1:19: You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

This reflects how the Latin word Lucifer was used in classic Roman poetry, such as this passage from Virgil (Georgics, III, 324-325):

Luciferi primo cum sidere frigida rura
carpamus, dum mane novum, dum gramina canent

Let us hasten, when first the Morning Star appears,
To the cool pastures, while the day is new, while the grass is dewy.

The term also occurs in the plural (luciferum) in Job 38:32 to refer to an astral constellation. Other forms of the word are used in similar ways to refer to light or the stars. This reflects the Greek (Septuagint) translation’s use of heosphoros, "morning star" to translate the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12.

There is some debate about the exact origin of the original Hebrew word in Isaiah 14:12 (helel). The strongest possibility is that it comes from a verbal root that means "to shine brightly," as well as "to offer praise" (where we get the phrase hallelu yah). In any case, the noun form is the Hebrew term for the morning star, in most cases the planet Venus. Both the second century BC Greek translation in the Septuagint, and the fourth century AD Latin translation in the Latin Vulgate understand this to be the meaning of the Hebrew word helel.
Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12-17

Reading an interpretation from the NT back 800 years into Isaiah when the concept of Satan is not even brought up by Isaiah is poor interpretation.

Where does Isaiah use the word Satan? Lucifer is a Latin mistranslated.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#37
I already explained that the heaven in the text is not the Heaven we think of as Christians. It is the pagan council of gods.

JOURNAL ARTICLE
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon
A. R. George
Orientalia
NOVA SERIES, Vol. 66, No. 1 (1997), pp. 65-70
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon on JSTOR

"Ea, Enki, and the younger gods fight against Tiamat futilely until, from among them, emerges the champion Marduk who swears he will defeat Tiamat. Marduk defeats Quingu and kills Tiamat by shooting her with an arrow which splits her in two; from her eyes flow the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Out of Tiamat's corpse, Marduk creates the heavens and the earth, he appoints gods to various duties and binds Tiamat's eleven creatures to his feet as trophies (to much adulation from the other gods) before setting their images in his new home. He also takes the Tablets of Destiny from Quingu, thus legitimizing his reign."Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text

Resources » Encyclopedia of The Bible » M » Mount of Assembly

MOUNT OF ASSEMBLY (הַר־מﯴעֵ֖ד). The prophet Isaiah contrasted the once haughty boastings of the king of Babylon with his present weak and helpless condition. He aspired to sit upon the mount of congregation—apparently some fancied Babylonian Olympus of the gods, but he has been cast down to the depths of Sheol (Isa 14:12-15; KJV, ASV MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION).

Religion and Power: Divine Kingship in the Ancient World and Beyond ...

https://oi.uchicago.edu/.../religion-and-power-divine-kingship-ancient-world-and-bey...


After Shu-Sin the divinization kings was abandoned once more. Whether the kings of the Old Babylonian period (c. 2000–1595 BCE) can be considered divine is still subject to debate. Some consider the kings Rim-Sin of Larsa (1822–1763 BCE) and the famous Hammurabi of Babylon (1792–1750 BCE) to have been divine.

Isaiah 14:13 13 You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble.


JOURNAL ARTICLE
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon
A. R. George
Orientalia
NOVA SERIES, Vol. 66, No. 1 (1997), pp. 65-70
Marduk and the cult of the gods of Nippur at Babylon on JSTOR

"Ea, Enki, and the younger gods fight against Tiamat futilely until, from among them, emerges the champion Marduk who swears he will defeat Tiamat. Marduk defeats Quingu and kills Tiamat by shooting her with an arrow which splits her in two; from her eyes flow the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Out of Tiamat's corpse, Marduk creates the heavens and the earth, he appoints gods to various duties and binds Tiamat's eleven creatures to his feet as trophies (to much adulation from the other gods) before setting their images in his new home. He also takes the Tablets of Destiny from Quingu, thus legitimizing his reign."Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text

Resources » Encyclopedia of The Bible » M » Mount of Assembly

MOUNT OF ASSEMBLY (הַר־מﯴעֵ֖ד). The prophet Isaiah contrasted the once haughty boastings of the king of Babylon with his present weak and helpless condition. He aspired to sit upon the mount of congregation—apparently some fancied Babylonian Olympus of the gods, but he has been cast down to the depths of Sheol (Isa 14:12-15; KJV, ASV MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION).

Religion and Power: Divine Kingship in the Ancient World and Beyond ...

https://oi.uchicago.edu/.../religion-and-power-divine-kingship-ancient-world-and-bey...


After Shu-Sin the divinization kings was abandoned once more. Whether the kings of the Old Babylonian period (c. 2000–1595 BCE) can be considered divine is still subject to debate. Some consider the kings Rim-Sin of Larsa (1822–1763 BCE) and the famous Hammurabi of Babylon (1792–1750 BCE) to have been divine.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#38
New International Version
You said in your heart, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.

New Living Translation
For you said to yourself, ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north.

English Standard Version
You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;

Berean Study Bible
You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north.

Christian Standard Bible
You said to yourself, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will set up my throne above the stars of God. I will sit on the mount of the gods' assembly, in the remotest parts of the North.

Contemporary English Version
You said to yourself, "I'll climb to heaven and place my throne above the highest stars. I'll sit there with the gods far away in the north.

Good News Translation
You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You said to yourself:" I will ascend to the heavens; I will set up my throne above the stars of God. I will sit on the mount of the gods' assembly, in the remotest parts of the North.

NET Bible
You said to yourself, "I will climb up to the sky. Above the stars of El I will set up my throne. I will rule on the mountain of assembly on the remote slopes of Zaphon.

New Heart English Bible
You said in your heart, "I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will sit on the mountain of assembly, in the far north.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You thought, "I'll go up to heaven and set up my throne above God's stars. I'll sit on the mountain far away in the north where the gods assemble.

As you can see from my last post and these translations, it is an assembly of the false gods in the North. Not the God we know, nor the Heaven we christians understand.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,220
1,583
113
68
Brighton, MI
#40
The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given.

12. Lucifer--"day star." A title truly belonging to Christ ( Revelation 22:16 ), "the bright and morning star," and therefore hereafter to be assumed by Antichrist. GESENIUS, however, renders the Hebrew here as in Ezekiel 21:12 , Zechariah 11:2 , "howl."
weaken--"prostrate"; as in Exodus 17:13 , "discomfit."

Daniel 8:10 , "stars" express earthly potentates. "The stars" are often also used to express heavenly principalities ( Job 38:7 ).
mount of the congregation--the place of solemn meeting between God and His people in the temple at Jerusalem. In Daniel 11:37 , and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 , this is attributed to Antichrist.
sides of the north--namely, the sides of Mount Moriah on which the temple was built; north of Mount Zion ( Psalms 48:2 ). However, the parallelism supports the notion that the Babylonian king expresses himself according to his own, and not Jewish opinions (so in Isaiah 10:10 ) thus "mount of the congregation" will mean the northern mountain (perhaps in Armenia) fabled by the Babylonians to be the common meeting-place of their gods. "Both sides" imply the angle in which the sides meet; and so the expression comes to mean "the extreme parts of the north." So the Hindus place the Meru, the dwelling-place of their gods, in the north, in the Himalayan mountains. So the Greeks, in the northern Olympus. The Persian followers of Zoroaster put the Ai-bordsch in the Caucasus north of them. The allusion to the stars harmonizes with this; namely, that those near the North Pole, the region of the aurora borealis (compare Job 37:22 ) [MAURER, Septuagint, Syriac].
Isaiah 14 Commentary - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible