Not By Works

[Discern]

I was not referring to you .....very sorry next time I will be more clear.

sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[dcontroversal]

For example, do you agree that a believer does not stop believing. Because that is a view of osas that has been supported here by more than one osas person.

I believe God covers this.....

IF we BECOME faithless, HE ABIDES faithful because he cannot deny himself!

NO only does the APOSTLE include himself, it is written to believers, called saints, member of a N.T. church and BECOME faithless is directed at those who have been SAVED by FAITH......

There are many things in this world that cause men to lose faith and or blame GOD such as the death of a child, disease or a sudden tragic death of a loved one just to name three...........

GOD KNOWS this and COVERS this by the above verse, not to mention ALL of the other verses that absolutely support the eternal security of the believer......

 

[dcontroversal]

So now to see if we’re All on the same page, someone define faith as it is used in Ephesians 2:8

A correct rendering of the verse as opposed to the King Jimmy gives insight to this and points to the fact that the FAITH that saves IS NOT OF US......

In the grace we are <----position
HAVING been saved OUT OF FAITH <---THAT which saves
AND THAT not of yourselves <---The faith that saves is not of or from US
IT is the GIFT of GOD <----BOTH faith and the ensuing salvation
NOT of works lest any man should boast <---WE have NO discharge in this "FIGHT" and NO right to boast

It is as clear as can BE.....it is ALL GOD or is is of the devil and fraudulent!

 

[dcontroversal]

We are saved by Faith. But not just any Faith, but TRUST which is more than just believing. But works are NECESSARY as evidence of the salvation. And those works are not OUR works but His Works. Jesus Christ has the copyright on ALL GOOD WORKS. If an evil man does a good thing, even that work belongs to Christ.

Bible tells us that Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God.

But what many don't realize is that Faith is the ACCESS to Grace. Grace is not mere favor for God favors everyone and works toward the Good of Everyone. But rather Grace is Approval and God doesn't yet approve of everyone.

So the gift of Repentance towards Faith is a Gift of God as is the Faith, Works and the Grace.

But unto the one that WORKS NOT, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, HIS faith is credited to righteousness....

Clear enough for me!

AND....

This is the work of the HEAVENLY FATHER, THAT we believe on him whom he hath sent.

We, BY BELIEF have done the works of the HEAVENLY FATHER

 

[Discern]

We are saved by Faith. But not just any Faith, but TRUST which is more than just believing.

Very true

But works are NECESSARY as evidence of the salvation. And those works are not OUR works but His Works.

Splendid! Well said

Jesus Christ has the copyright on ALL GOOD WORKS. If an evil man does a good thing, even that work belongs to Christ.

Hesitated, but upon thought, I agree

Bible tells us that Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God.

But what many don't realize is that Faith is the ACCESS to Grace. Grace is not mere favor for God favors everyone and works toward the Good of Everyone. But rather Grace is Approval and God doesn't yet approve of everyone.

So the gift of Repentance towards Faith is a Gift of God as is the Faith, Works and the Grace.

There is Grace that precedes faith, leading to faith

There is a kind of Grace given to all (Rain on just and unjust, for example

I thinkthe meaning of favor is stronger. Working toward the goog of everyone would probably fall under grace. Favor is an aspect of salvation, IMO

All are undeserved gifts

 

[Discern]

A correct rendering of the verse as opposed to the King Jimmy gives insight to this and points to the fact that the FAITH that saves IS NOT OF US......

In the grace we are <----position
HAVING been saved OUT OF FAITH <---THAT which saves
AND THAT not of yourselves <---The faith that saves is not of or from US
IT is the GIFT of GOD <----BOTH faith and the ensuing salvation
NOT of works lest any man should boast <---WE have NO discharge in this "FIGHT" and NO right to boast

It is as clear as can BE.....it is ALL GOD or is is of the devil and fraudulent!

Agree with all you said. It comes from God, but is imparted to us leading to our belief and trust , correct?

 

[Discern]

I believe God covers this.....

IF we BECOME faithless, HE ABIDES faithful because he cannot deny himself!

NO only does the APOSTLE include himself, it is written to believers, called saints, member of a N.T. church and BECOME faithless is directed at those who have been SAVED by FAITH......

There are many things in this world that cause men to lose faith and or blame GOD such as the death of a child, disease or a sudden tragic death of a loved one just to name three...........

GOD KNOWS this and COVERS this by the above verse, not to mention ALL of the other verses that absolutely support the eternal security of the believer......

When Jesus said "oh faithless and perverse generation" when the disciples could not cast out a devil, what kind of faith were they lacking?

 

[Discern]

When Jesus said "oh faithless and perverse generation" when the disciples could not cast out a devil, what kind of faith were they lacking?

When Jesus called them faithless, (the disciples who could not cast out a devil), He was not saying they no longer believed, was He?

 

[Hewillcome2040]

But unto the one that WORKS NOT, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, HIS faith is credited to righteousness....

Clear enough for me!

AND....

This is the work of the HEAVENLY FATHER, THAT we believe on him whom he hath sent.

We, BY BELIEF have done the works of the HEAVENLY FATHER

Clear enough for me also that it is not OUR works that save us.

 

[Hewillcome2040]

....

There is a kind of Grace given to all (Rain on just and unjust, for example

I thinkthe meaning of favor is stronger. Working toward the goog of everyone would probably fall under grace. Favor is an aspect of salvation, IMO

All are undeserved gifts

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You see Romans shows that Faith is the means by which we access Grace (Approval).

 

[Hewillcome2040]

When Jesus said "oh faithless and perverse generation" when the disciples could not cast out a devil, what kind of faith were they lacking?

Trust. Saving Faith is more than just believing. It is TRUSTING God.

 

[Discern]

I

I believe God covers this.....

IF we BECOME faithless, HE ABIDES faithful because he cannot deny himself!

NO only does the APOSTLE include himself, it is written to believers, called saints, member of a N.T. church and BECOME faithless is directed at those who have been SAVED by FAITH......

There are many things in this world that cause men to lose faith and or blame GOD such as the death of a child, disease or a sudden tragic death of a loved one just to name three...........

GOD KNOWS this and COVERS this by the above verse, not to mention ALL of the other verses that absolutely support the eternal security of the believer......

Compare the verse you are aluding to with Romans 3:3

I don't know if you can reconcile believers permenantly losing faith with Hebrews 3:6 and Hebrews 3:14

 

[Discern]

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You see Romans shows that Faith is the means by which we access Grace (Approval).

Of course, but there is grace that comes before faith.

 

[VCO]

Romans 13
11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Okay, let me explain this supposed Contradiction. Yes, the Holy Spirit enters us, and Births our Human Spirit into Eternal Life. That Spiritual LIFE actually was given to us BEFORE TIME BEGAN. That was a SURE THING the DAY HE PLANNED IT.

Isaiah 46:10-11 (ESV)
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

That is why we KNOW SPIRITUAL SALVATION, was DONE DEAL before time began.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

John 3:6 (ESV)
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Therefore the SALVATION that Happened BEFORE TIME BEGAN, was obviously referring to the Human Spirit.

Now below, is the Verse you questioned. This SANCTIFICATION process some times is referred as ending with the GLORIFIED BODY, and therefore, they sometimes will refer to receiving the GLORIFIED BODY as salvation of the BODY.


Romans 13:11 (HCSB)
11 Besides this, knowing the time, it is already the hour for you to wake up from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

So there really is NO CONTRADICTION AT ALL. It is like comparing Apples to Oranges. SALVATION of the Human Spirit happens the minute you are Born Again Spiritually when YOU RECEIVED HIM. SALVATION of the Human Body is when you received the Glorified Body that will be LIKE HIS.

Yes I believe in Predestination, AND Choosing HIM. Some people think that is Contradiction Terms. Not really, we were Predestined to Choose Him. He foreknew us, and knew every single decision we would make in our entire life. Makes perfect sense to me.

If you want to see if you are in the GLORIFIED BODY already, get the biggest needle you can find, and jab it deep into your arm. AND if you BLEED, you are still in this body with a sin nature.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (ASV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So according to my understanding, the Glorified Body will be one of Flesh and Bone, with no blood in it.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

20 + years now and counting. It would be unfathomable for me to imagine to ever stop believing.

That's because you are a new creation in Christ , the old has passed , the new has begun...
I have been saved just over 4 yrs , I fall deeper and deeper into Him as the days pass , I to could not even imagine one moment without Him , like the apostle said " Where would we go LORD "...
...xox...

April 2006 will be 14 years since the glorious day I was regenerated spiritually. To those here who have
experienced the same, grace mercy and peace be multiplied to you!

What a awesome, all loving, and merciful God we serve.

 

[VCO]

Clear enough for me also that it is not OUR works that save us.

So are you are an honest OSAS BELIEVE, that understands that works never save us? HALLELUJAH! We have bombarded with the other kind some kind. Most of us a OSAS evangelical style of Christians. But lately, most new people have been from the other side of the fence. Hope you are Okay with OSAS.

 

[VCO]

We are saved by Faith. But not just any Faith, but TRUST which is more than just believing. But works are NECESSARY as evidence of the salvation. And those works are not OUR works but His Works. Jesus Christ has the copyright on ALL GOOD WORKS. If an evil man does a good thing, even that work belongs to Christ.

Bible tells us that Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God.

But what many don't realize is that Faith is the ACCESS to Grace. Grace is not mere favor for God favors everyone and works toward the Good of Everyone. But rather Grace is Approval and God doesn't yet approve of everyone.

So the gift of Repentance towards Faith is a Gift of God as is the Faith, Works and the Grace.

The only thing that I have a question on is: Do you believe the Obedience never has anything to do with Salvation,
He had the HOLY SPIRIT Pour GOD's LOVE into our hearts (human spirit), Rom. 5:5, and that Agape LOVE comes out of us
in the form of LOVE for God and the Brethren. Therefore, our Agape LOVE, spawns our Obedience.


1 John 3:16-18 (HCSB)
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.

 

[VCO]

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You see Romans shows that Faith is the means by which we access Grace (Approval).

Grace is a FREE GIFT.

And Faith is not of ourselves.


Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

 

[PS]

WRONG, but your mistake is common among some believers. Your mistake is you include disciples that were NOT BORN AGAIN, as being part of US BORN AGAIN Believers. Disciples means FOLLOWER OF A TEACHER, and DOES NOT MEAN they are Born Again or SAVED. WE DO NOT INCLUDE DISCIPLES THAT WERE NEVER BORN AGAIN. Only BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS will be taken to Heaven, and they will NEVER FALL AWAY.

John 3:3-7 (HCSB)
3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[,That "born of water" is a reference to the breaking of water, in Natural Childbirth. A follower of Jesus can be one that has never been Born Again. However, we do not count them as being one of us, Born Again Believers. How do I know that is a reference to Natural Childbirth? Look at the next verse.]
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.


Matthew 7:20-23 (NKJV)
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' [.These are those disciples that have NEVER been Born Again.]
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

That I never knew you is a reference to the Born Again experience. John 10:27-28
They had never received HIM as LORD, meaning Master. Rom. 10:9-10, says IT MUST BE A CONFESSION, that happens first IN your human spirit, whereas they only PROFESSED it.
They Never had the inner, personal Relationship, where You are immersed IN HIS SPIRITUAL BODY, by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:12-13
They Remain, lord of their own Lives. John 1:12-13
They Fail to Produce Any Spiritual Fruit, Gal. 5:22-23

If you could get over the idea that everyone who goes to Church and sits on a Pew, is a Christian. It would go a mile towards restoring the Fellowship between us. Let me explain the Parable of the Gates in Mat. 7, I think it will shed some light on the subject.

In the Parable of the Gates, HE is talking about only people who think they are Christians.

Matthew 7:13-14 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.


Every single person on those the ROADS, think they are on the right path to heaven. Every single person calls Him LORD. NOW read again Mat 7:22. NOTICE the Many in verse 22, are the Same as the many in verse 13. OH MY! That is what I mean that there is NO NON CHRISTIANS listed in Verse 13. The verse numbers were not added to the English Bible until 1560. John, inspired BY THE LORD, is talking about HOW TO TELL PHONY CHRISTIANS FROM TRUE CHRISTIANS. And HE said many not me. OH MY! I hope a light bulb just when on, inside your intellect.

Now Notice:

Matthew 7:20 (NKJV)
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Fruits are Lifestyle Characteristics, not something that happens one time, or even on rare occasions, but something that dominates their LIFESTYLE. So we can too identify what is going on in their hearts, by carefully watching what kind of FRUITS IT PRODUCES in their lives. It may take awhile with some people and others it will happen more quickly.

Here are Good Spiritual Fruits, followed By BAD FRUITS:

Galatians 5:22-26 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is {agape} love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.
26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Now for the BAD FRUIT that Characterize False Christians Lives:

Galatians 5:19-21 (HCSB)
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions,
21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

HE said we can identify them by their FRUITS. I have to believe HIM! Now without naming names, some have exhibited BAD FRUITS that I just highlight; that characterizes the dominant characteristics of some who have posted here. If your human spirit is BORN AGAIN, you will have no problem Producing those spiritual Fruits in your life.

Now remember BAD FRUITS is not a one time failure or sin, but that which dominates your lifestyle. Therefore those who exhibit an ongoing lifestyle of Bad Fruits in verse 20; we can be sure they have never been born again.

I hope we can agree on this post.

Provided they stay the course.

 

[PS]

The goats and the sheep will be seperated , I hear His voice , I am in His flock , I have gone through the door , the gate , and like ALL His sheep , we are of His flock , and NOTHING can separate us from Gods amazing love , what a glorious place to be , in my LORD , and He in me , the pasture is beautiful on this side of everlasting life, eternally secure forever and ever and ever , ETERNALLY SECURE...

Thank You LORD Jesus for SAVING a wretch like me , all the glory to God Amen...

Provided the sheep do not think the grass is greener on the other side.

If you have ever watched sheepdog trialling, you will know how wilful sheep can be.