Did Jesus take the punishment for our sins?

LeeLoving · Jan 25, 2020

Did Jesus take the punishment for our sins?

Could people answer this question for me authoritatively, exhaustively if need be? I might have been told both yes and no to this question, on this forum. If the answer to this question is yes, Jesus took the punishment for our sins and you both believe that to be true and can answer this question, please help me out here. How can I be saved if Jesus took the punishment for our sins and I don't know for sure if that is true?

LeeLoving · Jan 25, 2020

Actually, what I might have been told is that Jesus did not take the wrath of God for us. (maybe that He did not take the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us)

That kind of changes things, because the people who might have told me this might say that Jesus took the punishment for our sins, but did not take the wrath of God for us. What is the difference though?

Adstar · Jan 25, 2020

LeeLoving said:

I think the best chapter in the Bible showing that Jesus took the punishment due upon us for our transgressions is Isaiah 53.. The portion of scripture i quote below is pretty clear.. But i would also encourage you to read the entire chapter..

Isaiah 53: KJV
8 "He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {9} And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. {10} ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. {11} He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. {12} Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

There are a lot of verses in the NT that also support the idea.. like..

1 Peter 3: KJV
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

Jesus never suffered for his own sins because He did not sin.. He suffered for our sins.. He was and is the Just Messiah who suffered for the unjust transgressors..

Hebrews 9: KJV
14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? {15} And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Again later in the same chapter even clearer..

Hebrews 9: KJV
24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: {25} Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; {26} For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. {27} And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: {28} So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

I hope these passages help you overcome any doubt Leeloving.. They are pretty clear to me that's for sure.. I cannot see how anyone could preach that Jesus did not take the punishment that was due upon us.. That is to me out and out denial of the Gospel message that saves..

Roughsoul1991 · Jan 25, 2020

LeeLoving said:

Punishment is the wrath of God. Jesus took the punishment we deserve so in the eyes of God we are pure and sinless. But only as our faith abides in Christ. God forgets and looks past our sins due to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Hebrews 10:14-18 New International Version (NIV)
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

All of this chapter is good to read but above should get my point across.

7seasrekeyed · Jan 25, 2020

Isaiah was a major prophet to the nation of Israel and the following chaper, #53, from those prophecies concern the Messiah or Jesus. read this and you will see how much Jesus suffered on our behalf.

you can click on the blue letters for further understanding and reference to what was written; and again, this was a prophecy written hundreds of years before Jesus' death.

Isaiah 53 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Sin-Bearing Messiah
53 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no [a]form or [b]comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no [c]beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and [d]rejected by men,
A Man of [e]sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we [i]esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

LeeLoving · Jan 27, 2020

So did Jesus take the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us?

Roughsoul1991 said:

This seems right, I guess. Were you referring to God the Father when you were writing "God"?

I've been told that Jesus did not take the wrath of God (possibly the wrath that God the Father has towards sin, I guess I don't know exactly what I was told) on this forum, unless I'm mistaken. If I'm correct, was I told something heretical that could lead me to hell?

Aerials1978 · Jan 27, 2020

Jesus became sin. Hence why the Father could not look upon Him.

UnitedWithChrist · Jan 27, 2020

LeeLoving said:

There are liberals who deny the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement.

They are trash teachers.

A simple reading of Isaiah 53 would tell us that their reasoning is faulty.

I would add this....since I am Reformed, I believe Jesus only paid the penalty of the sins of the elect, not others.

Otherwise his atonement was not actual.

Free-willers will deny this, and claim that Jesus died for all, even those who will be lost. Therefore, his atonement is not effective. It simply makes salvation possible.

Additionally, the unsaved person is still under the wrath and condemnation of God until Jesus' atoning sacrifice is applied to him in time.

But, regarding your question, the kinds of guys who deny penal substitutionary are flaming liberals who want to mold God into their own image, and to claim that sin is no big deal to God....WRONG...it was a big enough deal for him to require his Son to come to suffer on the Cross.

By the way, this issue is all tied up in alternate views of the atonement...penal substitutionary atonement is the chief view of the atonement...there are other views such as the moral example view, the Christus Victor view, the ransom view, etcetera....some heretical groups deny penal substitutionary atonement and promote a false view.

Pelagians would focus more on the moral example view, which claims that Jesus only died on the Cross as a moral example..that humans would see a perfect example of obedience in Christ dying on the Cross, and that this would break their hearts and cause them to render a similar example.

There is some truth to alternate views like this, but the primary hub of the atonement teaching is penal substitutionary atonement..

That violates some peoples' view of God, though..they worship a god that does not display wrath and condemnation toward sinners...therefore the God of penal substitution cannot be the real God.

I would really suggest this video called The American Gospel - Christ Crucified for a great explanation on this, and the modern-day heretics who promote false views of the atonement. It is on Vimeo. It costs like $5 to view. If you are in a country which cannot watch it, let me know.

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/christcrucified/379283418

At the end is a great summary of those different views of the atonement.

I highly suggest that you watch this.

UnitedWithChrist · Jan 27, 2020

LeeLoving said:

So did Jesus take the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us?

This seems right, I guess. Were you referring to God the Father when you were writing "God"?

I've been told that Jesus did not take the wrath of God (possibly the wrath that God the Father has towards sin, I guess I don't know exactly what I was told) on this forum, unless I'm mistaken. If I'm correct, was I told something heretical that could lead me to hell?

There are total heretics on this forum, by the way..I hope you know that.

Aerials1978 · Jan 27, 2020

UnitedWithChrist said:

There are Heretics all over. They adhere to what I call the “Play-Dough God”. They want to mold God into a representation of their beliefs instead of who God claims He is and what He has done.

John146 · Jan 27, 2020

LeeLoving said:

In the OT, the sins of the nation of Israel were placed upon the scapegoat. The scapegoat would take these sins into the wilderness. Jesus is our scapegoat. He bore our sins and deposited them in the wilderness of hell, though He did not suffer in hell. His suffering was on the cross.

UnitedWithChrist · Jan 27, 2020

LeeLoving said:

So you say "I don't know for sure if that is true".

What I would say is this: you need to read the Bible and ask yourself whether its message is coherent, and ask yourself if any other worldview is reasonable.

Additionally, ask God to lead you and to show you the truth.

Scripture is totally coherent.

I am attaching a file that explains the storyline of Scripture. I call it the "Big Picture" view. This view explains the storyline through using the elements Creation, Fall, Rescue, Restoration.

It outlines the sequence of events in human history that details:

1. God's purpose in creation (Creation harmony, man created in God's image to reflect his glory)
2. Adam and Eve's sin, and how this has affected humanity (the Fall)
3. God's plan for redemption (Jesus Christ and the Cross)
4. The full consummation of God's purpose (New Heavens/New Earth - a return to Eden)

My faith leans largely on two things: the coherency of the biblical storyline and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Aerials1978 · Jan 27, 2020

LeeLoving said:

The best answers you will get is by reading scripture and by prayer. You will get a lot of opinions from people, but what does scripture actually say?

Also one has to take into account your sincerity of the question. Are really looking for an answer? If yes, that has made plain.

Roughsoul1991 · Jan 27, 2020

LeeLoving said:

Yes he did. What did that look like? We wasn't told much in scripture other than Jesus crying out God why have you forsaken me in which is what happens to a sinner without grace. But Jesus as part of the Godhead defeated death and sin. So his punishment was very short in comparison to a eternal punishment. Jesus did what man cannot.

I would say you was told wrong but that doesn't necessarily mean it was heretical because there is many different opinions on what exactly happened once Jesus died and the period between the resurrection. To what degree did he suffer? O do not know.

Easy way to handle this is just read God's word at face value without the commentary. There will forever be mystery in some events. We have to have faith in those areas. If the individual did perhaps say to you that Jesus didn't die for our sins and suffered the punishment we deserve then yes I could say he was wrong.

Always read the Word and the filter others comments through it because you have false teachers or immature Christians who can lead you astray. Always counter research, read in context, study the full word of God on a subject on not just one passage, certain passages will have multiple theological beliefs. So listen to them all but always filter then through the full word of God.

Jimbone · Jan 27, 2020

LeeLoving said:

That is wrong, Jesus did take the wrath of God that abides over each one of us, and Isiah tells us it pleased the Lord to crush Him, not because He's mean. but because it's the only way we could be forgiven, if our sin was paid for. If Jesus didn't take ones punishment that means they still have it coming

. This is how our perfectly just God can forgive us, Jesus already paid the price, that was always the hangup, God justice. ALL sin must be punished and when we repent and turn to Him He resurrects our dead spirit and reconciles it to the Father as we were created to be, making us whole and transforming us to go make disciples of ALL nation, praise our King!!!!!!!!!

Whispered · Jan 27, 2020

LeeLoving said:

I think questions like yours that are deeply sincere should have more than just the usual folks you may know on this forum giving you their personal opinion and sometimes using scripture. Besides that, as we all may know already, our personal perspective can come to be challenged. And that doesn't help your question as pertains to your walk with God.

These two links may help you. The second one is Simply the Bible. I've shared this with others a time or two , not on any forum nor here before now though, and it seems to help with most questions as pertains to the how, why, and am I sure I am saved, type queries. I hope this is so for you. Blessings.

How Did Jesus Become a Curse on the Cross?
"...The death of Christ on the cross was a death of curse: "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" (Galatians 3:13). The "curse" is alienation from God. This is apparent from the words which Christ will yet speak to those that shall stand on His left hand in the day of His power - "Depart from me, you cursed," He will say (Matthew 25:41). The curse is exile from the presence and glory of God. "

(I love this site) SB= Simply BibleWhat Jesus Accomplished on the Cross—His perfect sacrifice
"....Jesus was punished for Our Sins.

Jesus was punished instead of us because our own punishment would have to be everlasting.

God's severity (Romans 11:22) demands not only perfection. God also demands extreme punishment for every imperfection.

In theory, we could expiate our sins by suffering the just punishment for them. But in practice that is impossible, because the just punishment is nothing less that the everlasting punishment prepared and reserved for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41, 46). We can hardly expiate our own sins by a never-ending destruction from the presence of the Lord (2Thessalonians 1:9). "

The Book of 1st John chapter 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.

Propitiation - Bible Dictionary

eternally-gratefull · Jan 28, 2020

Col 2 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

john The baptist said, Behold the lamb of God whotakes away the sin of the world

jesus was the on true sacrifice who gave himself as atonemet for all sin.

UnitedWithChrist · Jan 28, 2020

I think the original poster's main question is how he can develop confidence that Jesus did, in fact, die on the Cross for our sins.

My answer is that it is God that ultimately gives faith, but he uses the instrument of His Word.

Reading the Word is like developing the tinder and the other shavings, and waiting for the Holy Spirit to ignite the flames and regenerate the Person.

In fact, it is God who causes the person to be drawn and to hear the Gospel message to start with, and then he sparks the fire through regeneration.

My advice is to keep on praying and studying, and seeing whether Scripture presents a coherent worldview. I am totally assured that it DOES present a coherent worldview, and that centers around the Creation, Fall, Rescue (Redemption through Christ), Restoration narrative.

It helps to see what other sound teachers have said in regards to salvation. You might check out Greg Gilbert's book Favor: Finding Life at the Center of God's Affection. I have given dozens of copies of this book in ministry, and along with Union with Christ by Rankin Wilbourne, these are the two top books I would give someone that was showing serious interest in salvation.

https://smile.amazon.com/Favor-Find...ding+favor+greg+gilbert&qid=1580234067&sr=8-1

Lightskin · Jan 28, 2020

UnitedWithChrist said:

Thank God you’re wrong.

UnitedWithChrist · Jan 28, 2020

Lightskin said:

I know that free-willers would prefer that Jesus' sacrifice be unlimited in terms of scope, but no one is really actually saved by it, but that isn't true.

His sacrifice is effectual for the elect. It isn't just a theoretical possibility for everyone. It is effective.

It doesn't matter anyways, because only those who come to faith benefit from it. The rest are doomed to eternal punishment. God already knows, infallibly, who will be saved, and the rest are doomed.

Did Jesus take the punishment for our sins?

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