Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
If you don't wish to address someone's question, why bother saying "You need to
study a LOT more"?


When Paul first came to Corinth, he naturally sought out a synagogue, as was his custom, to begin his Christian evangelizing.


That was in the FIRST SENTENCE, I guess you missed it. So I said: "You need to study a LOT more."

That was to the unlearned false statement you told: Paul was commissioned by Peter, James and John to preach the gospel of the uncircumcision, he had no authority to tell the Jews anything about being dead to the Law.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
When Paul first came to Corinth, he naturally sought out a synagogue, as was his custom, to begin his Christian evangelizing.


That was in the FIRST SENTENCE, I guess you missed it. So I said: "You need to study a LOT more."

That was to the unlearned false statement you told: Paul was commissioned by Peter, James and John to preach the gospel of the uncircumcision, he had no authority to tell the Jews anything about being dead to the Law.
There is nothing wrong with the statement once you understood the difference between the gospel of the uncircumcision and the gospel of the circumcision. (Galatians 2:7)

If Paul wanted to preach to the Jews, he had to preach to them the gospel of the circumcision, where the Law of Moses remained in force, as decided by the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15.

Why do you think he got into issues with James and the elders in Acts 21:20-25?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
There is nothing wrong with the statement once you understood the difference between the gospel of the uncircumcision and the gospel of the circumcision. (Galatians 2:7)

If Paul wanted to preach to the Jews, he had to preach to them the gospel of the circumcision, where the Law of Moses remained in force, as decided by the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15.

Why do you think he got into issues with James and the elders in Acts 21:20-25?



NEITHER UNCIRCUMCISION NOR CIRCUMCISION ARE NOT PART OF ANY GOSPEL.

Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
6For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.


When you understand that verse, you will UNDERSTAND that the Same GOSPEL
saves both the Old Testament Saints, and the New Testament Saints.

Old Testament Saints = believed in their Heart (Human Spirit) Messiah would come to pay for their SINS.

New Testament Saints = believed in their Heart (Human Spirit) Messiah did come and paid for our SINS.

IT IS THE SAME FAITH OF ABRAHAM!

Romans 4:3-5 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

There is the GOSPEL, in a nutshell, JESUS PAID IT ALL. OUR WORKS DO NOT COUNT FOR SALVATION, AND NEVER HAS.

Obedience is NOT PART OF SALVATION, however, IT IS PART OF OUR AGAPE LOVE, that HE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS, Rom. 5:5;
AND THAT HAPPENS AFTER SALVATION HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE
.


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Romans 5:8-11 (HCSB)
8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have now received this reconciliation through Him.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
NEITHER UNCIRCUMCISION NOR CIRCUMCISION ARE NOT PART OF ANY GOSPEL.

Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
6For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.


When you understand that verse, you will UNDERSTAND that the Same GOSPEL
saves both the Old Testament Saints, and the New Testament Saints.

Old Testament Saints = believed in their Heart (Human Spirit) Messiah would come to pay for their SINS.

New Testament Saints = believed in their Heart (Human Spirit) Messiah did come and paid for our SINS.

IT IS THE SAME FAITH OF ABRAHAM!

Romans 4:3-5 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

There is the GOSPEL, in a nutshell, JESUS PAID IT ALL. OUR WORKS DO NOT COUNT FOR SALVATION, AND NEVER HAS.

Obedience is NOT PART OF SALVATION, however, IT IS PART OF OUR AGAPE LOVE, that HE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS, Rom. 5:5;
AND THAT HAPPENS AFTER SALVATION HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE
.


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Romans 5:8-11 (HCSB)
8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have now received this reconciliation through Him.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
No need to ping pong verses back and forth if you are not going to address my question to you about a Jewish believer living in the time period of Acts.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Sorry pussycat, you don’t make the rules here. I answered your question as have many other people but you refuse to listen. I’m not playing your manipulation games. Your refusal to respond to John 3:16 proves you’re inept at seeing the fullness of God’s grace. Thanks for playing.
Amen...Lightbar does that quite regularly.......another Mr. Twisty
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
When Paul first came to Corinth, he naturally sought out a synagogue, as was his custom, to begin his Christian evangelizing.


That was in the FIRST SENTENCE, I guess you missed it. So I said: "You need to study a LOT more."

That was to the unlearned false statement you told: Paul was commissioned by Peter, James and John to preach the gospel of the uncircumcision, he had no authority to tell the Jews anything about being dead to the Law.
Amen....if he said the blue part....total ignorance....they did not commission Paul...how idiotic!!
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Of course...he pits Jesus against Paul....!!
The resurrected Christ Jesus never told the 11 at any point that they are now dead to the Law, due to the cross. He even told them to preach to the Jews to obey all that he had commanded them (Matthew 28:20)

Was he pitting himself against Paul too?
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
Amen...Lightbar does that quite regularly.......another Mr. Twisty
Look another one that does nothing but talk about people, slander and name call because they have no real argument against the truth being stated here. May the LORD have mercy on us all.

There is no Once saved always saved in the sense that ya'll believe.

For if WE (the writer and all to whom he is addressing in the Church) are sinning willfully after that WE(the writer and all to whom he is addressing in the Church) have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye (the adversaries, those sinning willfully), shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:26-29)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
For if WE (the writer and all to whom he is addressing in the Church) are sinning willfully after that WE(the writer and all to whom he is addressing in the Church) have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye (the adversaries, those sinning willfully), shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:26-29)
Again, see post #4,547. - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...need-to-keep-the-law-of-moses.185392/page-228

Although the writer includes himself in this warning (if we sin willfully) note that he switches pronouns in Hebrews 10:29 to "he" and at the end of the chapter (Hebrews 10:39) the writer makes it clear that he considers himself a true believer by including himself in the "we" who do not "draw back to perdition." But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
No you want me to look at what your argument is, post it here to me.
I already thoroughly explained my argument in post #4,547 but I will post it here for you.

I like how the Amplified reads - For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward]. The present tense indicates this is their lifestyle, their habitual practice. It describes an abiding state of willful, deliberate sinning. Those who are born of God are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, but sinning is not their willful, habitual, continual practice once they are born again. *1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin.. Believers become new creations in Christ "the old things have passed away behold and new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Although the writer includes himself in this warning (if we sin willfully) note that he switches pronouns in Hebrews 10:29 to "he" and at the end of the chapter (Hebrews 10:39) the writer makes it clear that he considers himself a true believer by including himself in the "we" who do not "draw back to perdition." But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. NOWHERE does the Bible us the words, "lose salvation." For further study see - https://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_1026-27

Sanctified in Hebrews 10:29 is not the same as sanctified in Hebrews 10:14. The one proves eternal (Hebrews 10:14) and the other proves guilty of apostasy (Hebrews 10:29). So once again, the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So even though the reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a genuine Christian, this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, BUT OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" as a participant in the Christian community of Hebrews believers, but then renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. For further study see - https://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_1028-29

I find it interesting that the KJV reads - ..but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. The NKJV reads - ..if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.” The NIV reads - And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back. Even if the "he" mentioned in relation to the shrinking back is the "righteous one" regardless, the first clause is clarified by the second clause in verse 39 - But "we" are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. (y)