Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

While the words like "historical authenticity" and "fallibility of radiometric dating" and the fact that we are being fought by proponents of syncretism should have clued you in, he is a six say creationist, as am I. I am unsure why you seek a fight with me.

It’s funny

the global flood prety much answers every question, if we take a literal 6 day approach, there is no need for millions of years for evolutionary means to get the earth to be able to facilitate mankind

i like to use the term aged, when I think of the creation sequence, God created the earth to be inhabited by an, who he created it for. Ie, he created it in an “aged” state,

 

[mailmandan]

Paul plainly explains for us what he means by "unless you believed in vain".
You can't be saved by a gospel about a risen Christ no matter how strong and sure your believing is if Christ really didn't rise from the dead.

"2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

"14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

"17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. "

1 Corinthians 15:2,14,17

No amount of believing in Paul's gospel of a risen Christ (vs.3-8) is going to save anybody if Christ has not really been raised from the dead. But osas ignores the context provided right in the chapter and says "unless you believed in vain" means you are saved by the gospel unless you didn't really believe, and because you don't really believe you won't hold fast to the gospel like true believers do. But as we can see in this post and my last post that's not the message Paul is communicating.

OSAS does not ignore the context and Paul's preaching and our faith would be vain IF Christ has not been raised, but of course, that is not the case. Paul makes this case because apparently there are some who are saying there is no resurrection of the dead. (vs. 12) But that is not the case that Paul makes in verse 2. Here Paul is not saying that we are saved by a gospel that is bogus because Christ has not risen, so you believed in vain. Holding fast to a bogus gospel would also be in vain if that were the case, but it's not.

Paul is saying that we are saved by believing the gospel and holding fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached confirms authentic belief and failing to hold fast confirms spurious, temporary belief. For the latter, the gospel may have been received superficially and externally, but was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence the believed in vain - being without success or effect, to no avail, to no purpose or in vain, having no real value or failing to achieve a desired result. Genuine believers hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached and make believers do not. So whether you like it or not, OSAS still stands.

 

[mailmandan]

Absolutely.. Works are the result of true saving faith. amen

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of true saving faith, but works are not the very essence of faith and works are also not the means by which we obtain salvation.

 

[Judges1318]

The message is not - you will be saved (future indicative) if you hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached. It is rather - you have been and now are saved (demonstrative evidence) IF in the future you hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached.

I said what the passage says: You are presently saved if you are presently holding fast the gospel word.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077002

 

[mailmandan]

I said what the passage says: You are presently saved if you are presently holding fast the gospel word.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077002

We are presently saved (demonstrative evidence) if we are presently holding fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached. Continuing to hold fast is proof of genuine belief and conversion.

BTW: I'm still waiting for you to respond to post #126,594. What's the hold up?

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-6330#post-4156151

 

[Judges1318]

Paul is saying that we are saved by believing the gospel and holding fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached confirms authentic belief and failing to hold fast confirms spurious, temporary belief.

No, you are twisting it to say that.
It simply says you are presently saved if you are presently believing (holding fast the gospel word).

 

[Judges1318]

Continuing to hold fast is proof of genuine belief and conversion.

....until you quit believing. Which means you never really believed to begin with. That's what osas doctrine says.

So, basically, no one can know for certain in this life if they have genuine faith in your doctrine. And that's supposed to be the supreme doctrine of security and assurance.

In my doctrine you really are saved if you are presently really believing. No, 'let's see' about it. Your changing behavior is the evidence of that believing.

 

[mailmandan]

No, you are twisting it to say that.
It simply says you are presently saved if you are presently believing (holding fast the gospel word).

Presently believing is confirmation of presently saved and not nosas.

 

[mailmandan]

No, you are twisting it to say that.
It simply says you are presently saved if you are presently believing (holding fast the gospel word).

Presently saved (demonstrative evidence) if you are presently believing (holding fast to the gospel) is not twisting.

 

[Judges1318]

BTW: I'm still waiting for you to respond to post #126,594. What's the hold up?

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-6330#post-4156151

I did reply.

You brought up the contradiction between John 3:16 and 3:18, and I said I'm still looking into it, but that it looks like it's a simple matter of taking the verb tense and the verb mood into consideration together in each verse when comparing them.

 

[Judges1318]

Presently believing is confirmation of presently saved and not nosas.

No, osas says believing to the very end is confirmation of genuine salvation.
But then it does contradict itself and say you can know that you are saved now.

 

[mailmandan]

....until you quit believing. Which means you never really believed to begin with. That's what osas doctrine says.

To quit believing demonstrates a spurious belief. Authentic belief continues.

So, basically, no one can know for certain in this life if they have genuine faith in your doctrine. And that's supposed to be the supreme doctrine of security and assurance.

Believers can know if they truly believe and have have eternal life. (1 John 5:13) Prior to my conversion (while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago) I didn't know.

In my doctrine you really are saved if you are presently really believing. No, 'let's see' about it. Your changing behavior is the evidence of that believing.

Yet in your doctrine, self preservation trumps God's preservation. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it.

 

[mailmandan]

I did reply.

You brought up the contradiction between John 3:16 and 3:18, and I said I'm still looking into it, but that it looks like it's a simple matter of taking the verb tense and the verb mood into consideration together in each verse when comparing them.

I read what you said about further looking into it, but do you agree or disagree with what I shared with you in post #126,594 in regards to the subjunctive mood in John 3:16? Or do you agree with Roman Catholics that those who believe in Him might still perish?

 

[Judges1318]

Paul's preaching and our faith would be vain IF Christ has not been raised, but of course, that is not the case. Paul makes this case because apparently there are some who are saying there is no resurrection of the dead. (vs. 12) But that is not the case that Paul makes in verse 2. Here Paul is not saying that we are saved by a gospel that is bogus because Christ has not risen, so you believed in vain. Holding fast to a bogus gospel would also be in vain if that were the case, but it's not.

Good so far.
You show you understand that "unless you believed in vain" means what the context itself says it means: That if Christ is not risen from the dead, all the believing you've been doing has been in vain.

But then you say this...

Paul is saying that we are saved by believing the gospel and holding fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached confirms authentic belief and failing to hold fast confirms spurious, temporary belief. For the latter, the gospel may have been received superficially and externally, but was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence the believed in vain - being without success or effect, to no avail, to no purpose or in vain, having no real value or failing to achieve a desired result. Genuine believers hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached and make believers do not. So whether you like it or not, OSAS still stands.

Now you say "unless you believed in vain" means 'unless your believing was actually fake believing and not real'.

I realize you have to do that to make the passage not simply mean what it says, that 'you are presently saved if you presently believe'. It's important to osas that the passage say, 'true believers always hold fast to the very end'. But the passage doesn't say that. I showed you that here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077002

You are presently saved if you are presently holding fast the gospel. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't add the osas bias to it and make it say 'you will hold fast to the very end if you are a true believer'.

 

[mailmandan]

No, osas says believing to the very end is confirmation of genuine salvation.
But then it does contradict itself and say you can know that you are saved now.

Believing to the very end if further confirmation of genuine salvation (especially to others). There is no contradiction because the one who believes to the very end is the same one who presently believes and knows they have eternal life.

 

[lightbearer]

I can argue all day long against the devilish drivel you peddle......and like I said...do not address me until you can be honest with the scriptures....

Colossians 3:3 - For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God

Colossians is one my favorite letters also. However it is hardly a letter for one to use to support OSAS.
Case and point.


We are given a command to seek (devote ourselves to) things that are above where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God. It says in the beginning of the chapter We are to be setting our affections (our minds) on things above in. And we are are also commanded mortify our members which our upon the earth. Put off the old man and his deeds.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek (devote ourselves to) those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection (our minds) on things above, not on things on the earth. For (because) ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. (AS a child of disobedience) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (No longer living that way but living in Christ,)
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But THE ONE that doeth wrong (Not seek the things that are above where Christ sitteth, Mortifying their members which are on the earth, putting off the old man and his deeds anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.) shall receive (the wrath of God cometh) for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

(Col 3:1-9,23-25)

The wrath God cometh upon the children of disobedience, the one that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he done. Because he done despite unto the Spirit of grace.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
(Col 1:21-23 KJV)

We have been reconciled in the Body of His flesh through His death to be presented through Him, Holy and unblamable and unreprovable in His sight IF we continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope (the joyful expectation) of the Gospel.

Can't continue unless you were there in the first place.

 

[mailmandan]

Good so far.
You show you understand that "unless you believed in vain" means what the context itself says it means: That if Christ is not risen from the dead, all the believing you've been doing has been in vain.

But then you say this...

Now you say "unless you believed in vain" means 'unless your believing was actually fake believing and not real'.

I realize you have to do that to make the passage not simply mean what it says, that 'you are presently saved if you presently believe'. It's important to osas that the passage say, 'true believers always hold fast to the very end'. But the passage doesn't say that. I showed you that here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077002

You are presently saved if you are presently holding fast the gospel. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't add the osas bias to it and make it say 'you will hold fast to the very end if you are a true believer'.

You showed me nothing and the blueletterbible does not support your nosas bias either. I have clearly presented my arguments, but you are too committed at this point to reject your nosas bias and accept the truth. It would be too devastating to your pride.

 

[Judges1318]

I read what you said about further looking into it, but do you agree or disagree with what I shared with you in post #126,594 in regards to the subjunctive mood in John 3:16? Or do you agree with Roman Catholics that those who believe in Him might still perish?

It's obvious some interpreters choose to make both verses match the mood of vs. 16, and some choose to make both verses match the mood of vs. 18. That much is clear.

But honestly, if you go strictly by what the original Greek moods are in vs. 16 you must interpret it as 'might not perish but might have everlasting life'. They are not being deceitful. It's an honest, accurate interpretation. But as you point out, the mood changes to indicative in vs. 18 for 'is condemned' and 'is not condemned'. That's a clear contradiction to us. Apparently to the interpreters too, since they change one verse to the other to remove the contradiction. But one thing is clear, the Catholics did NOT misinterpret vs. 16.

 

[Judges1318]

You showed me nothing

Then you did not look at the tenses in verse two. Why not?
I showed you both 'saved' and 'hold fast' are in the present tense.

the blueletterbible does not support your nosas bias either.

What I showed you is it does not support what osas claims it says.

I have clearly presented my arguments, but you are too committed at this point to reject your nosas bias and accept the truth.

Just show me how it can possibly be saying 'if continue to believe to the very end that shows your believing is real and not fake'. Use the Strong's resource I linked you to to make your case.

 

[Judges1318]

It would be too devastating to your pride.

No reason for personal attacks.
No pride here. I'm just going by what the Bible actually says. That's what makes it so easy for me to post here.

Osas doctrine has to make the Bible not really mean what it says to defend itself. That's very mentally straining to always have to be careful to make the Bible say what you need it to say to defend osas doctrine. Me? I just go by what the plain words say. I don't have to think of ways to make the Bible conform to my doctrine.