Not By Works
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Once again, your subjunctive mood argument reminds me of the same argument I've had with Roman Catholics and other eternal IN-securists in regards to John 3:16. There are those who stress the word "should" (which is subjunctive mood) in John 3:16 and imply that those who believe in Him "should" not perish, but still might. The Catholic Bible (NAB) goes further and translates it "might not perish but might have eternal life" to really raise doubt about whether or not believers will receive eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works, so we should not be surprised about that translation.
Anyway "should" subjunctive mood expresses a possibility or a consequence which results if a condition is met. In the case of John 3:16 the condition is “whoever believes in Him.” When that condition is met, two things happen. The person shall not perish, but receive eternal life. Notice that elsewhere a subjunctive mood of the verb to have (echein in Greek) is not used. “He who believes in Me has everlasting life” (John 6:47). That is the indicative mood, a statement of fact. He says the same thing using the indicative mood in John 5:24. The subjunctive mood is used elsewhere to affirm eternal security for the believer: “He who comes to Me shall never hunger (aorist subjunctive), and he who believes in Me shall never thirst (aorist subjunctive)” (John 6:35). “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die (aorist subjunctive)” (John 11:26). In John 3:18, we read - He who believes in Him is not condemned..
Actually, half or more of the English translations of John 3:16 do not use the word should, and maybe because the translators felt that might confuse people. The NASB and NIV read, “whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” The NET Bible, LEB, and HCSB have the same translation except they use "will" instead of shall (will not perish). Does this make sense to you now? Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we "might" become (subjunctive mood, condition justified by His grace) outcome would be made heirs (NASB) according to the (certain) hope of eternal life.
The Hebrew references that I cited do trip you up because you read through the book of Hebrews as if every Hebrew in the group is a genuine believer. Genuine believers have become partakers of Christ and hold the beginning of there confidence steadfast to the end. That is the mark of a genuine believer. Make believers depart from God with an evil heart of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:12-14) Those who have believed do enter into His rest. The gospel preached does not profit make believers because they do not mix faith with what they heard. (Hebrews 4:2-3)
Genuine believers believe to the saving of the soul and make believers draw back to perdition. (Hebrews 10:39) etc.. Unbelieving Hebrews who are mixed in with believing Hebrews profess to have faith, so it makes perfect sense to tell the whole group (not infallibly knowing who is who) to continue in a profession of faith/hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
It's only natural for the writer of Hebrews to speak this way, because he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can the writer avoid giving them false assurance that they will be saved when in fact they may not? Those who hold firmly show they are genuine believers.
Because you are comparing physical things and self preservation with spiritual realities and God's preservation.
Anyway "should" subjunctive mood expresses a possibility or a consequence which results if a condition is met. In the case of John 3:16 the condition is “whoever believes in Him.” When that condition is met, two things happen. The person shall not perish, but receive eternal life. Notice that elsewhere a subjunctive mood of the verb to have (echein in Greek) is not used. “He who believes in Me has everlasting life” (John 6:47). That is the indicative mood, a statement of fact. He says the same thing using the indicative mood in John 5:24. The subjunctive mood is used elsewhere to affirm eternal security for the believer: “He who comes to Me shall never hunger (aorist subjunctive), and he who believes in Me shall never thirst (aorist subjunctive)” (John 6:35). “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die (aorist subjunctive)” (John 11:26). In John 3:18, we read - He who believes in Him is not condemned..
Actually, half or more of the English translations of John 3:16 do not use the word should, and maybe because the translators felt that might confuse people. The NASB and NIV read, “whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” The NET Bible, LEB, and HCSB have the same translation except they use "will" instead of shall (will not perish). Does this make sense to you now? Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we "might" become (subjunctive mood, condition justified by His grace) outcome would be made heirs (NASB) according to the (certain) hope of eternal life.
The Hebrew references that I cited do trip you up because you read through the book of Hebrews as if every Hebrew in the group is a genuine believer. Genuine believers have become partakers of Christ and hold the beginning of there confidence steadfast to the end. That is the mark of a genuine believer. Make believers depart from God with an evil heart of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:12-14) Those who have believed do enter into His rest. The gospel preached does not profit make believers because they do not mix faith with what they heard. (Hebrews 4:2-3)
Genuine believers believe to the saving of the soul and make believers draw back to perdition. (Hebrews 10:39) etc.. Unbelieving Hebrews who are mixed in with believing Hebrews profess to have faith, so it makes perfect sense to tell the whole group (not infallibly knowing who is who) to continue in a profession of faith/hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
It's only natural for the writer of Hebrews to speak this way, because he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can the writer avoid giving them false assurance that they will be saved when in fact they may not? Those who hold firmly show they are genuine believers.
Because you are comparing physical things and self preservation with spiritual realities and God's preservation.
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It's easy to see the following passages are written to believers. Here he explains the 'forever' of Christ's ministry:
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. - Hebrews 10:11-14
And we know 'forever' doesn't mean 'you can't lose it' by what he says after this:
23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. - Hebrews 10:23-25
You exhort believers to hold fast to the hope they profess, not unbelievers, and you exhort believers to spur one another on to love and good deeds, and meeting together, not unbelievers. And if 'forever' meant they were forever believing/ forever saved he would not need to exhort them to hold unswervingly to something they already have for forever and can't lose. Besides, even you agree that the perfect and forever ministry of Christ, completed but ongoing in heaven, is applied through continued faith and ends if you stop believing, you just think the believer can never stop believing.
"24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely c those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:24-25
"This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." - 1 Peter 1:5
Connect the dots: Salvation continues because you continue to believe in the forever ministry of intercession in heaven, not because the ministry itself is forever. But if Hebrews says what you claim, show it to us.
If you are really following along with what I'm saying you should realize that you agree completely with what I'm saying except that you say the believer can never stop believing and that's why the believer can't ever lose salvation.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. - Hebrews 10:11-14
And we know 'forever' doesn't mean 'you can't lose it' by what he says after this:
23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. - Hebrews 10:23-25
You exhort believers to hold fast to the hope they profess, not unbelievers, and you exhort believers to spur one another on to love and good deeds, and meeting together, not unbelievers. And if 'forever' meant they were forever believing/ forever saved he would not need to exhort them to hold unswervingly to something they already have for forever and can't lose. Besides, even you agree that the perfect and forever ministry of Christ, completed but ongoing in heaven, is applied through continued faith and ends if you stop believing, you just think the believer can never stop believing.
"24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely c those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:24-25
"This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." - 1 Peter 1:5
Connect the dots: Salvation continues because you continue to believe in the forever ministry of intercession in heaven, not because the ministry itself is forever. But if Hebrews says what you claim, show it to us.
If you are really following along with what I'm saying you should realize that you agree completely with what I'm saying except that you say the believer can never stop believing and that's why the believer can't ever lose salvation.
Genuine believers/God's saints are preserved forever.. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) How long is forever?
Did you get a chance to read this in post #126,584?
Once again, your subjunctive mood argument reminds me of the same argument I've had with Roman Catholics and other eternal IN-securists in regards to John 3:16. There are those who stress the word "should" (which is subjunctive mood) in John 3:16 and imply that those who believe in Him "should" not perish, but still might. The Catholic Bible (NAB) goes further and translates it "might not perish but might have eternal life" to really raise doubt about whether or not believers will receive eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works, so we should not be surprised about that translation. Can't you see the red flag? I can see it a mile away!
Anyway "should" subjunctive mood expresses a possibility or a consequence which results if a condition is met. In the case of John 3:16 the condition is “whoever believes in Him.” When that condition is met, two things happen. The person shall not perish, but receive eternal life. Notice that elsewhere a subjunctive mood of the verb to have (echein in Greek) is not used. “He who believes in Me has everlasting life” (John 6:47). That is the indicative mood, a statement of fact. He says the same thing using the indicative mood in John 5:24. The subjunctive mood is used elsewhere to affirm eternal security for the believer: “He who comes to Me shall never hunger (aorist subjunctive), and he who believes in Me shall never thirst (aorist subjunctive)” (John 6:35). “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die (aorist subjunctive)” (John 11:26). In John 3:18, we read - He who believes in Him is not condemned..
Actually, half or more of the English translations of John 3:16 do not use the word should, and maybe because the translators felt that might confuse people. The NASB and NIV read, “whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” The NET Bible, LEB, and HCSB have the same translation except they use "will" instead of shall (will not perish). Does this make sense to you now? Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we "might" become (subjunctive mood, condition justified by His grace) outcome would be made heirs (NASB) according to the (certain) hope of eternal life.
Did you get a chance to read this in post #126,584?
Once again, your subjunctive mood argument reminds me of the same argument I've had with Roman Catholics and other eternal IN-securists in regards to John 3:16. There are those who stress the word "should" (which is subjunctive mood) in John 3:16 and imply that those who believe in Him "should" not perish, but still might. The Catholic Bible (NAB) goes further and translates it "might not perish but might have eternal life" to really raise doubt about whether or not believers will receive eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works, so we should not be surprised about that translation. Can't you see the red flag? I can see it a mile away!
Anyway "should" subjunctive mood expresses a possibility or a consequence which results if a condition is met. In the case of John 3:16 the condition is “whoever believes in Him.” When that condition is met, two things happen. The person shall not perish, but receive eternal life. Notice that elsewhere a subjunctive mood of the verb to have (echein in Greek) is not used. “He who believes in Me has everlasting life” (John 6:47). That is the indicative mood, a statement of fact. He says the same thing using the indicative mood in John 5:24. The subjunctive mood is used elsewhere to affirm eternal security for the believer: “He who comes to Me shall never hunger (aorist subjunctive), and he who believes in Me shall never thirst (aorist subjunctive)” (John 6:35). “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die (aorist subjunctive)” (John 11:26). In John 3:18, we read - He who believes in Him is not condemned..
Actually, half or more of the English translations of John 3:16 do not use the word should, and maybe because the translators felt that might confuse people. The NASB and NIV read, “whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” The NET Bible, LEB, and HCSB have the same translation except they use "will" instead of shall (will not perish). Does this make sense to you now? Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we "might" become (subjunctive mood, condition justified by His grace) outcome would be made heirs (NASB) according to the (certain) hope of eternal life.
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BINGO!
He very clearly promotes a self maintained salvation.
We are justified in time, once and in a moment in time. Done!
All this "keep believing to stay saved" is a feeble attempt to undermine God's declaration of justified/saved.
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I don't agree with him that genuine believers stop believing or that continuing to believe is accomplished through self preservation/back door works salvation. "Keep believing to stay saved" undermines God's preservation and exalts self preservation. Saving belief in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. For by grace we "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith..
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BINGO!
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For by grace we "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith..
The question, is will that continue?
Genuine believing is never portrayed in the Bible as a work of self righteousness. There's no reason to discard my understanding of the necessity for continued believing for fear that would mean that person is trying to earn their own salvation through a work of self righteousness. The requirement for believing on the part of the person themselves in no way shape or form robs salvation of God's power to preserve the person in that salvation. The only limitation in salvation is whether or not the soil itself has the potential in and of itself to retain the word of God to the very end.
You can't snip that out of the whole context of scripture which explains the necessity to keep believing in order to be preserved forever.
You brought up the contradiction between John 3:16 and John 3:18 in regard to the mood of the verbs. I was not aware of the argument before. I'm studying it out now and can't comment on it until I'm done. But at this point it looks like it's a simple matter of considering the tense of the verb along with the mood of the verb to explain the apparent contradiction between the two verses (one verse being conditional, the other emphatic).
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