The timing of the rapture?

[zander]

it amazes me the Bible experts we have says post does it ? The Bible also states to seek Godly counsel . God gifts certain people with the ability to study, discern and teach the Bible. Some have given Life times of study and interruptions of God's word on such things as the Rapture and end times. Godly men and women such as , John Mcarthur, David Jeremiah, Kay Arthur, and many many more. Many Many Godly Bible teachers that i highly respect , in fact almost ALL have conviction that there is a pre-trib rapture. I at least Don't claim that my view is what the Bible certianly says. I have asked God for wisdom and undertstanding, sought counsel and have my own conviction. The reason i posted was because i was upset that someone, in a topic such as this, (that many studied, gifted ,educated persons , have spent lifetimes trying to understand, and they carefully express their convictions because of complexity of the issue) says that they temselves are an expert on the issue and know that their belief is the only true belief of this issue. I dare say that this isn't a hot topic because it's so clear what the Bible says about it but rather that it's because it takes great understanding of the Bible in context and in interruption. I myself will not claim that my personal conviction and determination is for certian the true meaning of scripture. i posted what i had for people to read themselves, I have a great many other resorces, links to respected Bible shcolars and teachers, and perhaps books , that if anyone is interested i could make available for they temselves to determine wiith God's Holdy Spirit's help there own conviction. That i myself will respect. Lots can be said on this whole topic, but my interest in it was not to get into issues of the rapture but to state how i felt it wrong for someone to say "the Bible says it is post so we know it is post because God tells the truth" Which i felt was dissrespectful to others zan

 

[Londa]

i belive in the pre tib, rapture simple and short and i feel it to be soon but time is relivent

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Where does it mention a three and a half year tribulation?

Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:14, Revelation 13:5. Revelation 13:5 gives the exact length of time that the anti christ will reign, and not so oddly enough this is the exact length of time that God says He will protect His people in Revelation 12.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

it amazes me the Bible experts we have says post does it ? The Bible also states to seek Godly counsel . God gifts certain people with the ability to study, discern and teach the Bible. Some have given Life times of study and interruptions of God's word on such things as the Rapture and end times. Godly men and women such as , John Mcarthur, David Jeremiah, Kay Arthur, and many many more. Many Many Godly Bible teachers that i highly respect , in fact almost ALL have conviction that there is a pre-trib rapture. I at least Don't claim that my view is what the Bible certianly says

It doesn't really matter how respected these people may or may not be if their teaching opposes scripture then they are wrong. I do say what I believe is what the Bible teaches because it is. The funny thing is the poll shows a 12 to 3 majority of vote for pretrib over post yet there has not been one single pretriber to give one single verse that could support their opinion. The reason this is, is because scripture does not support the pretrib view it is the popular teaching because it is what people want to hear.

2nd Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lust heep to themselves teachers having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth and unto fables.

The pretrib doctrine is just one of many fables that fulfill this scripture.

 

[sutra]

Doesn't the bible also teach not to give part to worthless arguments?? What will happen will happen and everyone will be surprised how things turn out-so why not give your attention to what the bible tells you to?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Doesn't the bible also teach not to give part to worthless arguments?? What will happen will happen and everyone will be surprised how things turn out-so why not give your attention to what the bible tells you to?

The Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. The Bible says nothing about believing a false teaching just because it is the popular teaching or because respected people believe it. The Bible does say avoid vain babbling because they cause strife. However correcting a false teaching that is (whether people want to believe this or not) in itself dangerous is not wrong to do. Matter of fact I truly believe God has chosen certain people in this day and age to promote the truth and to expose the pretrib doctrine for what it is a false teaching created to keep God's people unaware and unprepared for the times to come.

 

[sutra]

It's the Father's job to prepare the people for whatever.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

It's the Father's job to prepare the people for whatever.

And God uses people to fulfill His purposes.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Is there any pretrib believer that can give one scripture as to why they believe as they do, we are 5 pages into this thread and I have yet to see one.

 

[zander]

Try reading some of what is posted and btw i have'nt seen any post trib scripture that proves it either

 

[zander]

just because something is popular doesn't disqualify it from being truth.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Actually it is not a separate event from the 2nd coming, the rapture is a smaller event that incompasses the larger event of the 2nd coming. The 2nd coming consist of the return of Christ from heaven to the earth, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints, the destruction of the wicked, and the setting up of the Millenniual Kingdom. So all 5 of these smaller event make up the larger event known to us as the 2nd coming. As for biblical proof for the rapture being a part of the posttrib 2nd coming and not a pretrib event.

6 points that prove post trib rapture (scripture included)

#1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.

#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

Try reading some of what is posted and btw i have'nt seen any post trib scripture that proves it either

I reposted the above because you must have missed it your first time through.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

just because something is popular doesn't disqualify it from being truth.

Being the popular belief is not what disqualifies the pretrib theory from being the truth, it is the fact that it is the opposite of what is written in scripture that disqualifies it from the truth.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

If you check out the 6 points from post #92 you can really stop st the first 2 points and have a closed case. If the Bible teach #1 that the 2nd coming is post trib (which is does) and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming (which it is) then you have proven without any shadow of any doubt that the rapture too must be a post tribulational event.

 

[Lil_warrior]

The bible says it is post so we know it is post because God tells the truth.

sure sure onwings, sure it says it...

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Lil warrior the Bible tells us 2 things about he timing of the rapture.

#1 the 2nd coming is after the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

So like I have already stated if the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation and the rapture is at the 2nd coming then that makes the rapture after the Tribulation also.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I see 8 people have voted other, could any of the 8 others explain what they believe?

 

[Bigstone]

Some say mark 13:24 refers to people that will be saved after the trib. He will gather His saints from heaven (pre-trib) and earth.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Some say mark 13:24 refers to people that will be saved after the trib. He will gather His saints from heaven (pre-trib) and earth.

Those that Jesus gathers from heaven are the dead in Christ, check out 1st Thess 4 start at verse 13 instead of 16 and read through verse 18. Those that Jesus gathers from the earth are those that are alive and remain until the end of the tribulation, once again reference 1st Thess 4:13-18, this time key on verse 15. Remember the whole gathering together is post trib, check out 2nd Thess 2:1-3.

 

[apre]

if you go and have a good read of thessalonians you might realise that Paul was basically telling them to "pull their heads in" and come down from the hill and 'GET ON WITH LIFE'. jesus will come when jesus comes, we need to do god's work in the here and now. the rapture, like 'purgatory' is a made up word by some well meaning but misguided people a long time ago. i wont vote for a timing of the rapture because for me, it is irrelevant to what i need to do in god's world right now.