Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

CS1 · Feb 26, 2020

I guess you did not hear Peter in Acts chapter two? Peter and the Apostles Hid the Three thousand who were saved and baptized?
They were baptized Publicly. FYI Jesus was Baptized Publicly, John the Baptist Baptized Publicly at the Jordan River The Eunuch from Ethiopia was on a public road as Philp was walking along said and was baptized it was seen to be a ditch.

So That is all Biblical

Wansvic · Feb 26, 2020

CS1 said:

The point is if water baptism's purpose was merely for public display this would be consistently evidenced in scripture. It is not. According to the Word, obedience to the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus remits one's sins.

Dino246 · Feb 26, 2020

garee said:

It would seem you are still trying to divide what God calls one.

We should look at it according to the time period . Many things were different. What was happening can affect the understanding. The time is the time of reformation. Coming from a government of kings where men lorded it over the faith, belief of others and the word of God restored it to period (Judges) When God was King and there was no outward representation of the eternal Spirit of God. Believers walked by the faith as it is written.

God using the gentile to speak to the whole world. Prophets as prophesied in Joel. Men and woman from all the nations with a new tongue the gospel . A great time of tribulation for the faithless Jew that refused to get under all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura ) A time of leaping for the believing Jewish woman and gentiles. It is the sign of tongues. God bringing the gospel in other languages a new tongue, as prophecy .Yet they still believed not. There hearts remained hard showing they were ignorant of spiritual gifts.

Everything was being turned upside down .Chapter 11 sets up the new ceremonial laws that were used to represent the new reformed order. The gifts have become spiritual as not seen and the warning was needed. the first teaching of the gifts. .No one was familiar with them .They speak of a new creation. Seeing it is where Satan can get his foothold .Paul said; I would not have you ignorant as those who fall backward. The introduction to the teaching.

1 Corinthians 12 King James Version (KJV) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Can't divide the work of God's prophecy from the power of God prophesying declaring the Word. Remember we plant the incorruptible seed he causes life to grow..

Different kinds of spiritual unseen gifts but that does not divide the gift. . "the hearing of the gospel God's word as one work" ..It is a work of God that he works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure.Nothing gets attributed to the flesh .Christ said His flesh profits for zero.
...
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.1 Corinthians 12:29-31

A more excellent way. No need for signs introducing the next chapter. The finished way the more excellent way when the perfect had come the best gift . In that way it would impossible to deceive the elect . The Holy Spirit knew right around the corner he would reveal his last revelation using John the last prophet to brig a written witness. And sealed up the book of prophecy, the tongue of God forever and ever.

Given that Paul returns to explaining the use of the gifts in chapter 14, he does not intend that the gifts are irrelevant.

He very clearly distinguishes speaking in tongues from interpretation of tongues. They are distinct gifts, though they are related and rightly occur together. God separates them; I have only pointed out that God has separated them. Your insistence that "tongues" simply means "the gospel" is illogical and incoherent in light of this. Nothing in your novella above has addressed this.

Wansvic · Feb 26, 2020

CS1 said:

You state my comments are wrong. Would you please clarify what responses are wrong.
Thank you.

CS1 said:
So you are saying those who are baptized in the " name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and not in the name of Jesus, their baptism is null and void. This is your understanding of the scriptures you used. You are eliciting the word of God.
Both are valid for baptism for one who is already saved.

My response: If both were valid, both would be witnessed in the Word.

CS1 said:
You do not see in the Book of Acts how the Holy Spirit fell on those who were not water baptized in the house Cornelious?

My response: I said water baptism is a required component of salvation. After the Gentiles were filled with the Holy Ghost Peter commanded they be water baptized in Jesus' name as well.

CS1 said:
Or how those who were water baptized ( John's baptism) received the empowering of the Holy Spirit after Paul laid his hands on them?

My response: These disciples did not receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit until they were re-baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:3-6)

CS1 said:
Salvation is by Grace through faith, baptism is the obedience of the one who is already saved. That is what Roman chapter 6 shows and states. You make baptism or the acts of it for salvation when faith in Christ is the motivation and obedience of one who is saved already.

My response: I agree that by God's grace salvation was made available through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. If not for Jesus' sacrifice none could be saved. Where we differ is how mankind attains that salvation.

CS1 · Feb 26, 2020

Wansvic said:

I did not it was for merely public display. The word of God shows it is an act of Obedience and publicly proclaiming faith in the work of the Death Burial and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. the term Remission in the KJV you need to read up on.

the word is used 10 times in the New Testament KJV. each time the Greek translation is the release from bondage or imprisonment and also "aphesis " means too delivered, forgave, and forgiven.
The Remission contextually has to be seen with all scriptures where it is used. The normative is not Baptism that is descriptive in Acts 2.

You need to start at Matthew 26:28

Jesus is speaking here of HIS blood and the removal of sin by HIS Blood

mark 1:4 they were confessing then being baptized

Luke 1:77 was Prophesying by the father of John the baptist

"To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,"
LUke 3 and luke 24 both are not about Baptism but both are of repentance and preaching the Gospel

Notice How Paul by the Holy Spirit ties it all together what Jesus said and the Gospels in Romans3:24-25

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Not Baptism or it would say so.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
saved BY grace through faith.

repent = return to God be saved By Grace through faith in ONE the Lord Jesus Christ heard by the preaching of the Gospel.
receive then an act of belief obey and be baptized By Jesus in the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is symbolic of a work that was already done as Pual said in Romans 6 .

7seasrekeyed · Feb 26, 2020

the fact is that ONLY the blood of Christ washes away sins

He is our High Priest appointed by God to be the propitiation for our sins

we have here a false doctrine that has been refuted over and over

Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

it is not Jesus and a body of water or a baptistery in a church

garee · Feb 26, 2020

Dino246 said:

The Faith of Christ comes by hearing parables as it is written (prophecy) The same Faith come from hearing tongues. (prophecy) as it is written (prophecy)

Who said anything about irrelevant gifts other than what you say about parables in a attempt to separate it from the word of God as prophecy ?

Speaking in other languages is speaking in other languages, as they are spoken. The gift from God.

He gives His understanding to those who hear it ..as well as those he moves to declare it You cannot separate the Word of God from the power of the Word. In the same way ..can't separate tongues which is prophecy from tongues, or tongues from parables . Just as you cannot separate parables for prophecy . Prophecy has nothing to do with the hands or will of the prophet.

Calling the gospel which is prophecy tongues is what the bible declares. With the gospel the new tongues from faith the unseen to the same unseen faith that can drive out demons. believers have the power in them but is it not of them .

If a person is looking for a self edification gift the mirror works fine for some or take a selfie .

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faithRomans 1:16-17

If it is not tongues the gospel of truth that cast out demons then what?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

stonesoffire · Feb 27, 2020

Before Jesus, there were many baptisms for the Jews. Mikveh. I’m not getting into this but I do believe this should be explained with the teaching of baptism.

John began as the prophet who prepared the way for the Messiah, as scriptures declared, so his baptism was of repentance and turning to God. The preparation of the heart. This is what water baptism declares. This one has prepared their heart for the piercing of the spirit of Christ, the anointed Messiah.

After the Cross? There is still the work of repentance by Holy Spirits wooing through the gospel being preached on, received and believed on. The very blood of Jesus then washes and removes even the stain of ones sinful life. Though it may not yet be understood, the work is done.

This then is the preparation to receive the overwhelming Holy Spirit of God, the anointing of oil from above, and the baptism into membership or becoming one with Jesus and given the same abilities (giftings) that He moves in, He being full, and we being gifted severally. All moving together in Him as one body in heaven, and on earth.

There’s no set pattern for anyone but it’s the same salvation process working within for us all.

Just don’t stop until we know that we know we are one with Him. And that’s what He prayed that we might know.

stonesoffire · Feb 27, 2020

If a person is looking for a self edification gift the mirror works fine for some or take a selfie

Garee, I took just this one line from your post to make a point.

Scripture: Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh accomplishes nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Self edification as you are defining is not what tongues in our prayer language imparts.

Its His empowering us, building up our spirit in His. In Him!

So looking into ones mirror.....who are you seeing?

If not His reflection? Or..... Being God aware!

Perhaps something more may be needed.

Wansvic · Feb 27, 2020

Wansvic said:

You state my comments are wrong. Would you please clarify what responses are wrong.
Thank you.

CS1 said:
So you are saying those who are baptized in the " name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and not in the name of Jesus, their baptism is null and void. This is your understanding of the scriptures you used. You are eliciting the word of God.
Both are valid for baptism for one who is already saved.

My response: If both were valid, both would be witnessed in the Word.

CS1 said:
You do not see in the Book of Acts how the Holy Spirit fell on those who were not water baptized in the house Cornelious?

My response: I said water baptism is a required component of salvation. After the Gentiles were filled with the Holy Ghost Peter commanded they be water baptized in Jesus' name as well.

CS1 said:
Or how those who were water baptized ( John's baptism) received the empowering of the Holy Spirit after Paul laid his hands on them?

My response: These disciples did not receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit until they were re-baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:3-6)

CS1 said:
Salvation is by Grace through faith, baptism is the obedience of the one who is already saved. That is what Roman chapter 6 shows and states. You make baptism or the acts of it for salvation when faith in Christ is the motivation and obedience of one who is saved already.

My response: I agree that by God's grace salvation was made available through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. If not for Jesus' sacrifice none could be saved. Where we differ is how mankind attains that salvation.

Your non-response speaks volumes.

garee · Feb 27, 2020

stonesoffire said:

I am not promoting self edification look at me what I just performed as an signs and wonders gospel

Prayer language is the language a person uses to pray. How it became words without meaning is foreign to the Bible teaching.

Some use that oral tradition of men as self edifying sign. Look what I did and even fall backward mocking God.

.Like Catholisicim with the sign of the cross with ashes on the foreheads, made a noise and be filled with the Holy Spirit

Tongues is prophecy the language of the gospel.

Wansvic · Feb 27, 2020

CS1 said:

Notice Acts 10:42-48 where it states the apostles were commanded to preach unto the people that whosoever believed in Jesus would receive remission of sins, how? THROUGH HIS (Jesus) NAME. (verses 42, 43)

God provided evidence that the door of salvation was open to the Gentiles when He filled them with His Spirit. This realization prompted Peter to question the other Jews with him, "How can we forbid them water?" (verse 47) Peter knew that to refuse to water baptize them would be going against the very purposes of God. (Acts 11:17)

It is clear that Peter understood that upon taking on the name of Jesus (verse 43) that their sins would be forgiven and they would have the ability to enter into the Kingdom of God. He was not willing to withstand God.

The very next thing Peter does is COMMAND, not suggest, that the group to be water baptized in the NAME of the Lord. (verse 48)

Acts 10:42-48
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 11:17-18
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Dino246 · Feb 27, 2020

garee said:

The Faith of Christ comes by hearing parables as it is written (prophecy) The same Faith come from hearing tongues. (prophecy) as it is written (prophecy)

Who said anything about irrelevant gifts other than what you say about parables in a attempt to separate it from the word of God as prophecy ?

Speaking in other languages is speaking in other languages, as they are spoken. The gift from God.

He gives His understanding to those who hear it ..as well as those he moves to declare it You cannot separate the Word of God from the power of the Word. In the same way ..can't separate tongues which is prophecy from tongues, or tongues from parables . Just as you cannot separate parables for prophecy . Prophecy has nothing to do with the hands or will of the prophet.

Calling the gospel which is prophecy tongues is what the bible declares. With the gospel the new tongues from faith the unseen to the same unseen faith that can drive out demons. believers have the power in them but is it not of them .

If a person is looking for a self edification gift the mirror works fine for some or take a selfie .

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faithRomans 1:16-17

If it is not tongues the gospel of truth that cast out demons then what?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

There is so much error in your post that it's going to take more time than I presently have to address it.

garee · Feb 27, 2020

Wansvic said:

Question? Looking at what you called the command of Peter. I would call it a command of God in that way. Do you think the commandment worked in them as the power of God? When he said the words; "be baptized" was it performed in them as a result? I would think so. It would seem to some to mean find some water and do the work .

Water baptism is a cerinimoinal law. It is performed when one has a desire to be a member of the priesthood as a kingdom of priests..

It does not make them as a shadow Holy . A vivid demonstration as warning . Aarons two sons added what is called strange fire as some sort of way of making it personal self edifying. They were consumed but the ceremonial clothing, no smell of smoke .A warning to us . No self edifying. An oral tradition they call sign gift.

Like all shadows they represent a outward ceremony or sign to the world, of a suffering savior coming beforehand and now has come

.We point back to that ceremony .On the other side the reformation they looked ahead to the promised demonstration .Both receiving the end of the work of our new faith from the beginning when we first heard His voice our first love.

The goal of all the ceremonial laws that use the things seen the temporal to represent the unseen eternal. is found in 1 Peter below.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:11

As a result of the commandment By baptized it moved them in a hope Christ would abide they desired he tarry .No mention of H20. The word water does no appear any time after the explanation as to the different kinds of baptisms. Acts 11

garee · Feb 27, 2020

Dino246 said:

Thanks I can wait.

JBTN · Feb 27, 2020

Why is this not an accurate rendering of Acts 2:38?

Petros de pros autos, metanoesate kai baptistheto
Peter then to them, change your mind and be immersed

hekastos hymon epi to onomati Lesou Christou
every one of you on the authority of Jesus Christ

eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon kai lempsesthe
into forgiveness of the sins of you and you will receive

ten dorean tou Hagiou Pneumatos.
the gift of the Holy Spirit.

metanoesate = change your mind
baptishtheto = be immersed
epi = on
onomati = name, authority, cause
eis = into

This shows the immersion here to be into forgiveness of sins, not into water.

Think about Matthew 26:28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

for the forgiveness of sins = eis aphesin hamartion = into forgiveness of sins

eis = into

So, Acts 2:38 talks of immersion into forgiveness of sins, which is exactly where Matthew 26:28 says the blood of the covenant was poured out.

Another interesting verse to consider here is Luke 24:47.

“and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

The more common reading of Acts 2:38 leads to an understanding that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, but here Jesus clearly tells the Apostles that “repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations”. The word “for” is actually eis in Greek. So, it becomes, “a change of mind into forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations.”

Concerning Acts 10:47-48

Under the definition for kolysai (koluo) in Thayer’s Lexicon the beginning of 10:47 is rendered this way.
Can anyone hinder the water (which offers itself), that these should not be baptized?

Kolysai means to hinder, which is quite different from forbid. Forbid implies that you are in control of the action. Hinder only implies that you can only slow down or otherwise impede the action. In Greek, the word to (the) does appear before hydor (water). When you see it this way you begin to think of the living water from John 7:37-39 and John 4:10 which is the Holy Spirit.

In 10:48 the Greek word translated commanded is prosetaxen (prostasso) which means to place at or to give a command. When you see that it is synonymous with to place at, it changes the way you understand this verse.

“And he placed them at immersion in the name of Jesus Christ”

CS1 · Feb 27, 2020

Wansvic said:

you are building your doctrine after the Accent of Jesus while not taking into account the context of water baptism before Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus was water baptized publicly, and the Holy Spirit was there and so was the voice from heaven and the man Jesus. Remember the Gospel of John said I bore record of this event" John 1:15 & 1:32 Peter would not change what baptism was for as Jesus instructed Peter to do. Jesus told Peter to go and preach and those who believe baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Why would Jesus says that?

for one in John we see at Jesus own water baptism

The Voice of the Father
The Holy Spirit ascending
The Son Baptized

All three were present, Jesus in Mathews and Mark said to go preach and baptize in the name of all three.
Peter did not disobey when Peter baptized people in water it was in the name of all three But when HE laid his hands on those to baptized in the Holy Spirit it known as the Baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ AS it say Jesus would do in Johns gospel 1:33

I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

the baptism in water is done of one who has repented and publicly following Christ. The "Baptism of Jesus" Is that of the Holy Spirit.

which is the gift Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, : The first thing one must do

and let every one of you be baptized: The next thing to be done after you have repented

in the name of Jesus Christ: AS instructed to do so by the Christ who is Jesus of Nazareth spoken by the prophets.

for the remission of sins: is something one who has already received and the authority to be baptized came from the Lord to the Apostles to do so. None of them were Pharisees, of priest, or prophets, or Sanhedrin. Many questioned the authority of the Apostles " who authority are you baptizing? They said Jesus of Nazareth whom you crucified.

and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.: This is the Baptism of Jesus in John 1:33 talks about.

7seasrekeyed · Feb 27, 2020

here is an interesting revelation concerning what wansvic actually believes

it is taken from her op 344, dated July 27/19, the tabernacle in the wilderness

1. Acceptance of Jesus sacrifice and repentance

2. Water Baptism (receive the priestly garments)

3. Infilling of the Holy Ghost

4. Priestly office secured

5. Blood of Jesus sacrifice is applied

it is apparent that she seems to believe that there is no cleansing from sin until 4 other things have been observed, none of which are actually listed in scripture as prerequisites for the blood of Christ to cleanse us from all sin

if you actually do accept Jesus as per #1, it is right then and there that His blood is applied to your 'sin record'

wansvic has also stated that you are not saved if you do not speak in tongues and ditto water immersion aka baptism

Redemption through His Blood
11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come,d He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.
13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that their bodies are clean, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!

the above passage from Hebrews 9 clears any misunderstanding regarding the blood of Christ and does away with the oneness misapplication of the OT cleansing ritual as a comparison to immersion in water (baptism)

it is ONLY the blood of Christ that has obtained forgiveness for sin from God

wansvic has also stated (I don't know about this thread) in times past that unless you are baptized in Jesus name ONLY, you had better get it done again because you are not actually saved

Wansvic · Feb 27, 2020

7seasrekeyed said:

here is an interesting revelation concerning what wansvic actually believes

it is taken from her op 344, dated July 27/19, the tabernacle in the wilderness

1. Acceptance of Jesus sacrifice and repentance

2. Water Baptism (receive the priestly garments)

3. Infilling of the Holy Ghost

4. Priestly office secured

5. Blood of Jesus sacrifice is applied

it is apparent that she seems to believe that there is no cleansing from sin until 4 other things have been observed, none of which are actually listed in scripture as prerequisites for the blood of Christ to cleanse us from all sin

if you actually do accept Jesus as per #1, it is right then and there that His blood is applied to your 'sin record'

wansvic has also stated that you are not saved if you do not speak in tongues and ditto water immersion aka baptism

Redemption through His Blood
11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come,d He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.
13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that their bodies are clean, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!

the above passage from Hebrews 9 clears any misunderstanding regarding the blood of Christ and does away with the oneness misapplication of the OT cleansing ritual as a comparison to immersion in water (baptism)

it is ONLY the blood of Christ that has obtained forgiveness for sin from God

wansvic has also stated (I don't know about this thread) in times past that unless you are baptized in Jesus name ONLY, you had better get it done again because you are not actually saved

Acts 22:16 teaches not what washes away sin BUT WHEN sins are washed away.

Wansvic · Feb 27, 2020

CS1 said:

Interesting your response has nothing to do with the scripture comments referenced. Does not scripture say something different than what I expressed?
Notice Acts 10:42-48 where it states the apostles were commanded to preach unto the people that whosoever believed in Jesus would receive remission of sins, how? THROUGH HIS (Jesus) NAME. (verses 42, 43)

God provided evidence that the door of salvation was open to the Gentiles when He filled them with His Spirit. This realization prompted Peter to question the other Jews with him, "How can we forbid them water?" (verse 47) Peter knew that to refuse to water baptize them would be going against the very purposes of God. (Acts 11:17)

It is clear that Peter understood that upon taking on the name of Jesus (verse 43) that their sins would be forgiven and they would have the ability to enter into the Kingdom of God. He was not willing to withstand God.

The very next thing Peter does is COMMAND, not suggest, that the group to be water baptized in the NAME of the Lord. (verse 48)

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