Mary as the mother of God?

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Scotth1960

Guest
#81
Mary is the mother of the Human Body of Christ. Thus the human form of Christ. Christ however has no mother, he was before abraham, he created the universe. So how could mary be his mother?

Unless you believe Jesus never existed before his earthly birth. And thus was plain man, then Mary is the mother of no one.
God united Himself to humanity through the humanity of the ever-virgin Mother of God. She is not the mother of His Divinity, but since His divinity is now joined inseparably to His humanity, she is the Mother of God, as Jesus Christ is God the Son. You cannot separate the Divinity from the humanity, or the humanity from the Divinity, in Christ. To try to do so would be a heresy called Nestorianism, which said Mary is not the Theotokos, not the mother of God, but only Christotokos, only the mother of Christ. That was refuted by the third ecumenical council at Ephesus in 431 AD. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Mary is the mother of Christ and the mother of God, the mother of Christ God.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
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#82
Mary is the mother of the Human Body of Christ. Thus the human form of Christ. Christ however has no mother, he was before abraham, he created the universe. So how could mary be his mother?

Unless you believe Jesus never existed before his earthly birth. And thus was plain man, then Mary is the mother of no one.
The human body of Christ is a what. Last I checked, you're not a parent of a what, but of a who. The question is, WHO is Mary the mother of? Not WHAT is Mary the mother of?

We honour Mary because of WHO she is the mother of.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#83
The human body of Christ is a what. Last I checked, you're not a parent of a what, but of a who. The question is, WHO is Mary the mother of? Not WHAT is Mary the mother of?

We honour Mary because of WHO she is the mother of.
The who was not created, Unless you think Jesus is not God and did not exist prior to his human birth.

Mary is NOT the Mother of God, Unless Jesus as God was created at his birth.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#84

God united Himself to humanity through the humanity of the ever-virgin Mother of God. She is not the mother of His Divinity, but since His divinity is now joined inseparably to His humanity, she is the Mother of God, as Jesus Christ is God the Son. You cannot separate the Divinity from the humanity, or the humanity from the Divinity, in Christ. To try to do so would be a heresy called Nestorianism, which said Mary is not the Theotokos, not the mother of God, but only Christotokos, only the mother of Christ. That was refuted by the third ecumenical council at Ephesus in 431 AD. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Mary is the mother of Christ and the mother of God, the mother of Christ God.

Sorry Scott. To say Mary gave birth to God is heresy. Unless you think Jesus was created at Birth.


Hebrews states Melchizideck was a type of Christ. one of the reasons is Melchizideck, like Christ, had no father or mother. Christ is not a created being.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#85
Let me see if I understand your argument correctly. The proof that there were others who believed elsewhere is that there is no documentation supporting it because it was destroyed....

Let's repeat this idea. The proof you offer supporting your views is that because there is no supporting documentation for other views, it was all destroyed and thus, the documentation supporting the opposing viewpoint to yours is wrong! And yet you offer NO evidence that these documents supporting your viewpoint even exist. You simply claim that they were destroyed and that is thus your proof against our claims?

o_O
First off. It is not my argument. It is my response to your claims.

Second. It is your argument. Even if I could prove people believed the way i do in the 1st century, it would have no bearing on what I believe. My belief is based on Gods word. Not history.

third. Your argument states no one believed other than the following doctrines in the 1st century.

1. Sinlessness ands viginity of Mary Mother of God
2. Eucharist
3. Salvation by other means than the sacraments given to the church.
4. Trinity (although I believe this)
5. Baptismal regeneration.,

This is your reasoning for believing your the true church.

However your argument falls flat on its face, when we found out according to your own church, Any doctrines which went against these 5 (and I am sure more) were considered heretical. And ALL heretical books and documents were destroyed.

So how does YOUR argument stand? You can't prove no one believed I did or did not. All you can do is speculate no one did, And listen to the men who claimed no one did.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
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#86
The who was not created, Unless you think Jesus is not God and did not exist prior to his human birth.

Mary is NOT the Mother of God, Unless Jesus as God was created at his birth.
Why do you insist on separating Jesus' Divinity from His Humanity? He is God AND man, not God IN man. Jesus IS God, and Mary is the mother of Jesus.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#87
Why do you insist on separating Jesus' Divinity from His Humanity? He is God AND man, not God IN man. Jesus IS God, and Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Mary gave Jesus his physical body only. Mary did not give birth to Jesus God. Jesus God created Mary, so how could Mary give birth to Jesus God?
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#88
Mary: Mother of God



Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.


Irenaeus


"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).


Hippolytus


"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).


Gregory the Wonderworker


"For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David" (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

"It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’" (ibid., 2).


Peter of Alexandria


"They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).


Methodius


"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

"Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid., 14).


Cyril of Jerusalem


"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).


Ephraim the Syrian


"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).


Athanasius


"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).


Epiphanius of Salamis


"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).


Ambrose of Milan


"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?" (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).


Gregory of Nazianz


"If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).


Jerome


"As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing" (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

"Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God" (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).


Theodore of Mopsuestia


"When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation" (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).


Cyril of Alexandria


"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?" (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

"This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh" (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

"And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema" (ibid.).


John Cassian


"Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God" (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).

"You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God" (ibid., 2:5).


Council of Ephesus


"We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).


Vincent of Lerins


"Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two persons, and with unheard-of wickedness would have two sons of God, two Christs,—one, God, the other, man; one, begotten of his Father, the other, born of his mother. For which reason he maintains that Saint Mary ought to be called, not the Mother of God, but the Mother of Christ" (The Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).

_________________________________

Yes, Mary is the Mother of God.
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#89
Mary is only mother of the flesh not the Spirit. Then if she is the mother of God how then can she be the creation and God the creator.

Jesus is Man and God........Jesus had no human father making the flesh side of Mary's..the Holy Spirit is which over shadowed her making that side God.

How can Mary be the mother of God, She is only mother of the flesh of Jesus Christ.
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#90
Mary is only mother of the flesh not the Spirit. Then if she is the mother of God how then can she be the creation and God the creator.

Jesus is Man and God........Jesus had no human father making the flesh side of Mary's..the Holy Spirit is which over shadowed her making that side God.

How can Mary be the mother of God, She is only mother of the flesh of Jesus Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

You must have missed this in the above.
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#91
No one is saying she is the creator of God. Rather she carried God the Son and God the man in her womb, and so is the Mother of God.
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#92
And I guess by virtue of being impregnated by the Holy Spirit, she also carried God the Holy Spirit. If you believe in the Trinitity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost then there is no way around it. She was and is the Mother of God in the whole Trinity that is God.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#93
And I guess by virtue of being impregnated by the Holy Spirit, she also carried God the Holy Spirit. If you believe in the Trinitity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost then there is no way around it. She was and is the Mother of God in the whole Trinity that is God.
That's the core problem... Trinity error, and Filioque error-upon-error. God is not three "persons". The Son was not pre-existent as an eternally distinct "person".
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#94
Pneuma - I know God is not three distinct persons. I don't need an explanation of the Trinity, I just understand it as it is. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I personally don't understand how it is hard to understand. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all One.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#95
Pneuma - I know God is not three distinct persons. I don't need an explanation of the Trinity, I just understand it as it is. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I personally don't understand how it is hard to understand. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all One.
Understanding HOW they are one is another matter entirely, though. Trinity is a specific formulation, and IS three "persons". Are you a non-Trinitarian Catholic somehow?
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#96
Pneuma - I don't understand what you are saying or what you think I am saying. God is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I believe in the Trinity.
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#97
I don't have to understand HOW they are one. The Bible is pretty clear that all three are God and all my upbringing I was taught and believed all are One. Again, I am not understanding what you are trying to say or what you think you I am saying. I cannot understand HOW they are one anymore than I can understand the mind of God, for His ways are not our ways and His thoughts not our thoughts.
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#98
The whole point of the discussion is Mary the Mother of God. And yes, she is the Mother of God.
 
Feb 9, 2010
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#99
The Bible says the the Holy Spirit caused the conception in Mary,which means Mary had no part in the conception of Christ.The glory goes to the Holy Spirit for causing the conception in Mary.

Mary carried the child,but she had no part in the conception of Jesus.Mary played no part in Jesus being conceived,for the Holy Spirit caused the conception and gets they glory.

Mary had no part in the conception of Jesus,for the Holy Spirit caused the conception of Jesus.

That means Jesus was being formed in the womb for 9 months,and before He came out of the womb,He was a complete person,although not grown up as a man,which the Holy Spirit caused the conception with which the baby was a full human at 9 months before Jesus came out of the womb.

Jesus was a full human at 9 months,before He came out of the womb of Mary,in which Mary had no part in the conception of Jesus,for the Holy Spirit is the one who caused the conception and gave life to the child Christ Jesus.

And people are going to say that Mary is the mother of God,because Jesus was born,that Mary had no part in the conception,and the Holy Spirit caused the conception,and whether Jesus is in the womb a full human,in which the Holy Spirit caused the conception,and comes out 2 minutes later,He is still a full human that the Holy Spirit caused the conception.

Jesus did not change from being in the womb,and being born 2 minutes later,for He is the same,a full human,that Mary had no part in the conception,that the Holy Spirit caused the conception.

Whether Jesus is in the womb,or born 2 minutes later,He is still the same,the Holy Spirit caused the conception and is responsible for the life and formation and creation of the child Christ Jesus,and Mary did not create giving birth,as if she assisted in Jesus being born by creating birth,when God created women to give birth.

So how does Mary get any glory for Jesus being born,when it was the Holy Spirit that caused the conception,and created Mary with the ability to give birth.

It sounds like it is all the Holy Spirit's doing,and it is marvelous in our eyes.

There is no difference of Jesus being in the womb,and being 2 minutes older being born,than Jesus being a man and being 2 minutes older.Mary giving birth to Jesus does not change the fact that the Holy Spirit caused the life of Jesus,and Mary giving birth does not give her any participation in the birth of Jesus,and the Holy Spirit is the one that created Mary to be able to give birth,so it is the Holy Spirit that gets all the glory for Jesus being born.

From conception to death of Jesus,it is the Holy Spirit that gets the glory and is responsible for the formation and creation and birth of Jesus,and the Holy Spirit cannot create itself,for He has no beginning,so God was not born,but the child Christ Jesus,which the Holy Spirit gave life to,and manifest all His attributes to the child Christ Jesus.

27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it(Luke 11:27-28).


Let us hear what the Master Jesus has to say,for He is still the Master,is He not,or did Mary rise above Him,I think not.


Jesus said plainly that Mary is not blessed because she gave birth to Jesus,but anybody that hears the word of God and does it,is as blessed as Mary,and Mary was blessed because she obeyed God,like any other saint.


If Mary is supposed to be the mother of God,then why would Jesus say that she is not blessed because she gave birth to Him,but anybody that hears the word of God and does it,is on an equal level with Mary.


46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother(Matthew 12:46-50).


Here is the Master Jesus speaking again on this subject,that Mary is no better than any other saint,and is not blessed more than any other saint for giving birth to Jesus.


Jesus even pointed at His disciples and said behold My mother and My brethren,to make it clear that Mary is not any different than any other saint,and not to think Mary gets special treatment above any other saint for giving birth to Him.


Jesus was speaking to a crowd,and the disciples said your mother and brethren are outside the crowd wanting to speak with you,and Jesus pointed out that Mary does not get special treatment because she gave birth to Him,but the crowd that He is speaking to is just as important as her,and why should He leave off from speaking to the crowd to go see what His mother wants,when the crowd gets equal treatment as Mary.


Jesus said that everybody that does the will of the Father is His brother,and sister,and mother,to make it clear that Mary does not get special treatment above any other saint,so people in the future will not make that mistake,and some people still made that mistake.


Jesus said don't do it,and they do it anyway.
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
Luke 1:38:

Then Mary said, "Here I am, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.

It is erroneous to say she didn't have anything to do with it. She accepted God's will for her as spoke of it by the angel. You make it sound as if she was forced to bear the child Jesus.