The Texas Chainsaw Bible Massacre

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presidente

Senior Member
#21
May 29, 2013
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#21
Dave-L said:
Amillennialism is the historic Church position. They condemned premillennialism as heresy in 431 at Ephesus.
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Show proof of this. This website disagrees with you: https://bible.org/article/phantom-heresy-did-council-ephesus-431-condemn-chiliasm

The earliest position of the early church that we have record of was that there would be a kingdom set up in Jerusalem on the earth-- Papias, Justin, and Ireneaus for example held to a more literal interpretation. Justin said his view was held by all right-minded Christians, but he does not say if amil was one of the positions held by the Christians he did not consider to be right-minded on the issue.

Augustine held to amil, and the view was very popular after him. There was a push toward more allegorical interpretations. Origin used allegorical interpretation. He must have regretted being castrated from too literal an interpretation. But he also held to the idea that literal interpretations were true, too. Augustine, probably learning from Ambrose, held to a bizzare interpretation of II Corinthians 3 that does not fit the text that 'of the Spirit' meant, or was associated, with allegorical interpretation. Augustine was a big proponent of amillennialism and probably one of the reasons it was so popular for a long time afterward.

The apostles also believed that Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel. They did not say 'kingdom of God' in that question in Acts 1, but something more specific. They asked if, at that time, the Lord would restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus told them it was not for them to know the times set by His Father, encouraging them in their belief about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel.

So the view is very ancient.
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#22
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
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#22
Dave-L said:
The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel); The gospel sent to the whole world.

1000 years are Satan's binding. When they end Satan is loosed. So the 1000 years are not the kingdom. When they end, Satan is loosed, and he attacks the kingdom.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in = imminent return of Christ) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

When did the binding happen? The binding happened in Christ's ministry. This includes preaching the gospel to all nations fulfilling God's promise to Abraham.

“Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)

So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.
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It clearly says though in verse 4 reigned with Christ for a thousand years what is that thousand years?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#23
Jan 17, 2020
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#23
JamOn said:
It clearly says though in verse 4 reigned with Christ for a thousand years what is that thousand years?
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We reign over Satan with the gospel. He cannot deceive because of it.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#24
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#24
presidente said:
Show proof of this. This website disagrees with you: https://bible.org/article/phantom-heresy-did-council-ephesus-431-condemn-chiliasm

The earliest position of the early church that we have record of was that there would be a kingdom set up in Jerusalem on the earth-- Papias, Justin, and Ireneaus for example held to a more literal interpretation. Justin said his view was held by all right-minded Christians, but he does not say if amil was one of the positions held by the Christians he did not consider to be right-minded on the issue.

Augustine held to amil, and the view was very popular after him. There was a push toward more allegorical interpretations. Origin used allegorical interpretation. He must have regretted being castrated from too literal an interpretation. But he also held to the idea that literal interpretations were true, too. Augustine, probably learning from Ambrose, held to a bizzare interpretation of II Corinthians 3 that does not fit the text that 'of the Spirit' meant, or was associated, with allegorical interpretation. Augustine was a big proponent of amillennialism and probably one of the reasons it was so popular for a long time afterward.

The apostles also believed that Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel. They did not say 'kingdom of God' in that question in Acts 1, but something more specific. They asked if, at that time, the Lord would restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus told them it was not for them to know the times set by His Father, encouraging them in their belief about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel.

So the view is very ancient.
Click to expand...
The Jews expected a physical kingdom. but we see this view replaced by Paul's time when he outlines the end times along with Peter who replaces an earthly kingdom with the eternal New Heavens and earth.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#25
May 29, 2013
9,164
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#25
Dave-L said:
The Jews expected a physical kingdom. but we see this view replaced by Paul's time when he outlines the end times along with Peter who replaces an earthly kingdom with the eternal New Heavens and earth.
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You assume a replacement. I assume all prophecies will be fulfilled. In Revelation, the new heaven and the new earth are shown after a sequence of other things, which also are to be fulfilled.

Why do you put your interpretation of Peter's epistle above the words of Christ to the apostles before He ascended?
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#26
Jun 10, 2019
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#26
Dave-L said:
We reign over Satan with the gospel. He cannot deceive because of it.
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when did it start in what date if today is 2020 then 1020 would have been a thousand years, if it’s still going then it is after 1020? or it hasn't begun yet or already has.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#27
Jan 17, 2020
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#27
presidente said:
You assume a replacement. I assume all prophecies will be fulfilled. In Revelation, the new heaven and the new earth are shown after a sequence of other things, which also are to be fulfilled.

Why do you put your interpretation of Peter's epistle above the words of Christ to the apostles before He ascended?
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Why do you agree with the Pharisee who could not understand the scriptures, instead of Christ in this matter?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#28
Jan 17, 2020
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#28
JamOn said:
when did it start in what date if today is 2020 then 1020 would have been a millennium, if it’s still going then it is after 1020?
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Read the scriptures I provided. The binding of Satan began with Jesus preaching. The 1000 years are not literal time. 1000 in scripture = completeness, or totality.
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#29
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
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#29
Dave-L said:
Read the scriptures I provided. The binding of Satan began with Jesus preaching. The 1000 years are not literal time. 1000 in scripture = completeness, or totality.
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so your telling me to forget reading the Bible as literal meaning of a thousand years
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#30
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
#30
Dave-L said:
Why do you agree with the Pharisee who could not understand the scriptures, instead of Christ in this matter?
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Show me where Pharisees believed in a post tribulational rapture of the church.

Are you willing to reject the teaching of Christ because you think the Pharisees also believed in it?

Acts 1
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
(NKJV)

I am still waiting for evidence of your accusation that the council of evidence condemned premillennialism.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#31
Mar 13, 2014
42,600
17,063
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Tennessee
#31
Dave-L said:
Dispensationalism is nothing more than an attempt by prophecy mechanics to mix Phariseeism with Christianity.
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Years ago I had a subscription to Popular Mechanics. Had one for Popular Science too.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#32
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#32
presidente said:
Show me where Pharisees believed in a post tribulational rapture of the church.

Are you willing to reject the teaching of Christ because you think the Pharisees also believed in it?

Acts 1
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
(NKJV)

I am still waiting for evidence of your accusation that the council of evidence condemned premillennialism.
Click to expand...
The millennium is a Pharisee doctrine Christ refuted throughout the gospels. The Dispensationalists added to it without any scripture support.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#33
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#33
JamOn said:
so your telling me to forget reading the Bible as literal meaning of a thousand years
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Revelation is a book of symbols. Do you expect to see any red dragons anytime soon?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#35
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#35
JamOn said:
things are measured as in human measure as well
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But most measurements are symbols. 7 = perfection (God's number) 6 = man's number. 3 1/2 = a limited time, not the complete time. etc.
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#36
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
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#36
Dave-L said:
But most measurements are symbols. 7 = perfection (God's number) 6 = man's number. 3 1/2 = a limited time, not the complete time. etc.
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they are symbols of real time as well
 
StreetPreacher

StreetPreacher

Member
#37
Oct 12, 2019
50
41
18
#37
ROMANS 11:1-5

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#39
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#39
StreetPreacher said:
ROMANS 11:1-5

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Click to expand...
But only by faith in Christ will any be reattached to Israel.
 
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