The Texas Chainsaw Bible Massacre

[GaryA]

It implies they are different kingdoms, one spiritual and the other physical. God is a spirit. Heaven is a physical place.

Are you referring to the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven?

 

[John146]

How do we know what Jesus actually said? Did He say what Matthew said He said, or did He say what Mark said He said? If the two accounts do not match exactly, does that mean one of them is a liar?

The four gospel books are each an account of what Jesus said and did - each written by a different man.

If we believe that all four accounts are without error, then we must reconcile whatever passages seem to be at odds - while remembering that they are different accounts of the very same thing.

The original meaning - [of] what was actually said or done - MUST be the same.

Jesus did not tell Matthew to write one thing and tell Mark to write something different.

They are two different accounts of the same thing - the [original] meaning does not change from account to account.

Exactly. The only way to reconcile the two is believing the Holy Spirit led each one to write the exact words in which they wrote. The Holy Spirit is showing us the aspects of both kingdoms were at hand.

But before the physical could be given, the Lord told them to seek the spiritual first. Matthew 6:33.

 

[John146]

Are you referring to the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven?

The earth exists in the first heaven.

 

[GaryA]

There isn't any according to scripture. You must reject Christ to say there is.

Don't say stuff like this.

If you think your brother is in error, try to help him see the error. But - don't tell him (in essence):

"If you don't believe and interpret the Bible exactly-and-precisely as I do, you must not even be saved."

 

[GaryA]

The earth exists in the first heaven.

Okay. But - what are you saying the word 'heaven' means in scripture?

~ 1st heaven only
~ 1st heaven + 2nd heaven
~ 1st heaven + 2nd heaven + 3rd heaven
~ 2nd heaven only
~ 2nd heaven + 3rd heaven
~ 3rd heaven only

which?

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 25:14-30 talks about the Kingdom of Heaven where an unfaithful servant goes to hell. Luke 19:12-27 talks about the Kingdom of God where the unfaithful servant loses his rewards and this matches up with the Christian at the Judgment Seat of Christ(2 Cor. 5:10). There is obviously a difference between the two kingdoms.

Luke merely leaves out something that Matthew includes. Don't wrap your doctrine around it.

 

[GaryA]

Exactly. The only way to reconcile the two is believing the Holy Spirit led each one to write the exact words in which they wrote. The Holy Spirit is showing us the aspects of both kingdoms were at hand.

But before the physical could be given, the Lord told them to seek the spiritual first. Matthew 6:33.

I believe you are "over-spiritualizing"...

 

[John146]

I believe you are "over-spiritualizing"...

Really? How? I’m taking literally the two different words.

 

[Dave-L]

Don't say stuff like this.

If you think your brother is in error, try to help him see the error. But - don't tell him (in essence):

"If you don't believe and interpret the Bible exactly-and-precisely as I do, you must not even be saved."

How wrong is it to ignore scripture and add Phariseeism to God's word? Especially in Revelation?

 

[Dave-L]

So --- is a chain in the hand of an angel always to be interpreted as symbolic for the gospel?

And, did this happen in proper relation and sequence with all relevant biblical prophecy?

Jesus bound Satan by preaching the gospel when he began his ministry. Revelation 20 spans the New Covenant era we are now in. But only the Born again can see it.

 

[Dave-L]

Just want to point out something here...

In-as-much-as the kingdom was already in existence at the moment Jesus said this --- please note that this was during His ministry - before His death on the cross.

The Body/Church/Kingdom began on the day Christ was baptized - at the start of His ministry - from the moment of His 'annointing' -- not at Pentecost --- not at any other time.

Actually, the Congregation of the Lord in the Church in the OT. Abel, Job, and Abraham were born again believers and members of the Body of Christ from Eden on.

 

[Dave-L]

Revelation 20:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1000-year reign of Christ after the first resurrection - while the rest of the dead await another resurection to come.

~ anytime now?

Revelation 20:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

- anytime before all of this is to occur?

Wouldn't the "last day" - that marks the "end of the world" - occur after (or at the end of) all of this?

You make the 1000 years symbol into a literal impossibility that will never materialize.

 

[Dave-L]

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It says that they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years - after they were beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

If we choose to not believe it, are we not taking away from Revelation?

This is a forced interpretation. Notice this from Paul about the true believer's present state.

“And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:” Ephesians 2:6 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave-L]

Revelation 20:

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Is the bottomless pit 'physical' - having a time-and-space existance?

Yes or No ?

It says that Satan should deceive the nations no more - in any way - not just in a certain particular way.

You are adding to God's words.............in Revelation to boot.

 

[Dave-L]

Okay - after reading it again, I see what you are saying - which actually agrees with what I wrote in my previous post.

Nonetheless - it may be said that the 1000-year reign of Christ is physical/temporal - and, it still does not take anything away from the fact that the kingdom is eternal.

But, Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years end. How can they be the kingdom?

 

[Dave-L]

Do you realize that 'temporal' and 'eternal' describe state of existance; whereas, 'physical' and 'spiritual' describe mode of existance?

And that:

Physical things (seen) are temporal.

Spiritual things (not seen) are eternal.

So what's the problem?

 

[John146]

This is a forced interpretation. Notice this from Paul about the true believer's present state.

“And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:” Ephesians 2:6 (KJV 1900)

We are in Christ. Wherever Christ is, so we will be, spiritually speaking.

 

[John146]

Actually, the Congregation of the Lord in the Church in the OT. Abel, Job, and Abraham were born again believers and members of the Body of Christ from Eden on.

What? There was not a body to be in yet. They were not born again, redeemed by the blood, made a new creature in Christ, absent from the body and present with the Lord. The OT Church is not the same as the NT Church.

 

[Dave-L]

What? There was not a body to be in yet. They were not born again, redeemed by the blood, made a new creature in Christ, absent from the body and present with the Lord. The OT Church is not the same as the NT Church.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 11 lists many born again OT saints who had faith.

 

[Dave-L]

We are in Christ. Wherever Christ is, so we will be, spiritually speaking.

You need to consider this when reading Revelation.