Is Christ's church divided?

[superdave5221]

Matthew 28: 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Jesus said that ALL authority has been given to Him. The word all means, All!

Matthew 16: 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church ; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. This means that death cannot overcome Christ's church. The only power Satan has over anyone is death, caused by our own sins. Satan cannot touch Christ's church.

Romans 8: 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Once again, Satan cannot touch Christ's church, or remove anyone from it.

By the way, Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan!!

Christ's church is spiritual, and cannot be divided.

Matthew 12: 25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste ; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself ; how then will his kingdom stand ?

If Jesus Christ has all authority in heaven and earth, then His church can only be divided if He allows it. Jesus is not going to allow His church to be divided for the very reasons He Himself stated above!

Satan wants us to believe that Christ's church is divided so that we will believe the false prophets he sends into the world to deceive us. He wants us to look away from God's word found in the bible, and to search for other truths claimed by those who hate the bible, for it convicts them, and reveals their untruths to the world.

Do not believe it!

 

[pickles]

Good words in faith!

Thankyou and God bless.
pickles

 

[VW]

Good words in faith!

Thankyou and God bless.
pickles

Are they? Think again. What has been said here is that if someone believes the bible, then because of that belief, in the bible, that they are infallible. Paul wrote that nothing, not any created thing, could separate us from the love that God has for us in Christ Jesus. But that supposes that we have entered into His love. One does that only by the Spirit, for the fruit of the Spirit is love.

No, these are not good words, they are reasonings used to back up a false belief, that Jesus will not judge His church. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I hope with all of my heart that my words do not offend you Margaret, because in Jesus I care for you just as He does.

In Christ,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are they? Think again. What has been said here is that if someone believes the bible, then because of that belief, in the bible, that they are infallible. Paul wrote that nothing, not any created thing, could separate us from the love that God has for us in Christ Jesus. But that supposes that we have entered into His love. One does that only by the Spirit, for the fruit of the Spirit is love.

No, these are not good words, they are reasonings used to back up a false belief, that Jesus will not judge His church. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I hope with all of my heart that my words do not offend you Margaret, because in Jesus I care for you just as He does.

In Christ,

I think we see in rev concerning the 7 churches God will most definitely judge the church. He even tells the last church he will "spew them out"

People think the church will never split, be contaminated with false teachings and false prophets, And have infallible biblical interpretaion. This just is not true. If it were true, Jesus would never have to 'spew a church out of his mouth"

 

[Red33]

Concerning the believers that make up the church, God will only judge them according to His chastening because they are not of this world. He will not judge the church because of sin, for He was judged for their sin already. If there are those in the church who do not believe and become hardened through their unbelief He will put that local church through a trial and purge them out as He purifies those that are His. If a believer remains carnal, in any way, and will not receive grace and be restored, God will be longsuffering and will discipline and scourge them and if there is no response, will take that believer through physical death. They are saved as by fire but suffer the loss of all rewards because of the works done in their body.

It is those that continually project upon the church the judgment of God that never disciplines their lives to edify and build up what God has redeemed. They have a shallow understanding about grace and mercy and never see the patience and longsuffering of God. I do not care about their own personal testimony being a testament or example as to their predictions about the judgment of God. They are called to edify and build up the church and not predict judgment upon it as if they were of God. They don't even understand the nature of true repentance and how it happens in the heart of the believer because they are looking on the outward appearance when God looks upon the heart.

LBG, please don't give your (10 year) example of a sinner, when God has redeemed some of the worse sinners that has walked on the face of the earth.

 

[superdave5221]

I think we see in rev concerning the 7 churches God will most definitely judge the church. He even tells the last church he will "spew them out"

People think the church will never split, be contaminated with false teachings and false prophets, And have infallible biblical interpretaion. This just is not true. If it were true, Jesus would never have to 'spew a church out of his mouth"

It is the false church, and it's prophets, that God will spew out, not those belonging to Christ.

Is it your belief that God will spew out those He has given to Christ? Do you deny Christ's authority? It amazes me that for someone who advocates osas can at the same time believe that Christ's church can be divided.

You are either in Christ's church, or you are not. There is no in between.

 

[livingbygrace]

LBG, please don't give your (10 year) example of a sinner, when God has redeemed some of the worse sinners that has walked on the face of the earth.

I have to say I can not understand your view of Christianity and grace at all

Of course God has redeemed some of the worst sinners that have walked this earth. That has asbsolutely nothing to do with the Ten Year example you mention. Paul said he was the worst of sinners, and praise God for what he did through Paul by grace. How much of a sinner a person was before conversion is immeterial.

But if you are honest, the point put to you was. If for the following ten years after a claimed conversion experiance someone continually beat their wife, continually got drunk, had multiple affairs and did not read a Bible could they in your opinion be in a saved state?

At first you did not reply, but when you did you suggested they could well be. This has nothing to do with the state of someones sin BEFORE conversion

But like it or not grace is dependant on something, following after the Holy Spirit, if you don't follow after the Holy Spirit, biblically you are not in grace

So the question has to be asked. Could someone following after the Holy Spirit spend ten years after conversion doing constantly as I have above described? What do you think?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Concerning the believers that make up the church, God will only judge them according to His chastening because they are not of this world. He will not judge the church because of sin, for He was judged for their sin already. If there are those in the church who do not believe and become hardened through their unbelief He will put that local church through a trial and purge them out as He purifies those that are His. If a believer remains carnal, in any way, and will not receive grace and be restored, God will be longsuffering and will discipline and scourge them and if there is no response, will take that believer through physical death. They are saved as by fire but suffer the loss of all rewards because of the works done in their body.

It is those that continually project upon the church the judgment of God that never disciplines their lives to edify and build up what God has redeemed. They have a shallow understanding about grace and mercy and never see the patience and longsuffering of God. I do not care about their own personal testimony being a testament or example as to their predictions about the judgment of God. They are called to edify and build up the church and not predict judgment upon it as if they were of God. They don't even understand the nature of true repentance and how it happens in the heart of the believer because they are looking on the outward appearance when God looks upon the heart.

LBG, please don't give your (10 year) example of a sinner, when God has redeemed some of the worse sinners that has walked on the face of the earth.

I agree that God chastens those who are is. But I disagree that God will not judge a church.


Rev 3:
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.

These people did not reject truth (cold) but they did not embrace it either (hot) they were in the middle. They were probably very neutral when it came to things of God. A church like this would probably allow all kinds of things to contaminate the church, like allowing pagen rite and ritual, jewish law or whatever, and brought it in as one belief, and called it the church16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Christ is telling them he rejects everything they do. They will have no place with him.


17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—

Unlike other churches, Who had al least some good works. This church had no good works. They thought they were rich, and did not need anything, but they could not see their spiritual wealth was poor. And this is probably why they rejected the truth of Christ, and instead let everyone be what they wanted. Like the pharisees, they thought they were Ok with God. and probably felt blessed by God because they were so rich. When in reality they were spiritually poor. This church was not a true church, But a church who was dead.


18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

Christ told them they were blind and could not see truth. He used the vision of a salve which would help a person who has a disease or sickness causing blindness. He wanted them to look for spiritual things which would make them rich in him, And clothe themselves with what would give them life. .


19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

The sternest rebuke yet. He told them to repent (they had not done this yet.) He told them he is there, They have the truth it was given to them. He is standing at the door and knocking. Waiting for them to let him in. Which they had not done yet.

This church claimed to ba a church, And Christ acknowledged this. But their claim was false. For no one in this church was saved, They were a false church who had the truth of God and rejected it. And because of this God would vomit them out. Unless they repented!.

 

[Red33]

I have to say I can not understand your view of Christianity and grace at all

Of course God has redeemed some of the worst sinners that have walked this earth. That has asbsolutely nothing to do with the Ten Year example you mention. Paul said he was the worst of sinners, and praise God for what he did through Paul by grace. How much of a sinner a person was before conversion is immeterial.

But if you are honest, the point put to you was. If for the following ten years after a claimed conversion experiance someone continually beat their wife, continually got drunk, had multiple affairs and did not read a Bible could they in your opinion be in a saved state?

At first you did not reply, but when you did you suggested they could well be. This has nothing to do with the state of someones sin BEFORE conversion

But like it or not grace is dependant on something, following after the Holy Spirit, if you don't follow after the Holy Spirit, biblically you are not in grace

So the question has to be asked. Could someone following after the Holy Spirit spend ten years after conversion doing constantly as I have above described? What do you think?

You better hope that you don't fall into sin as you have judged others without mercy and I am talking also about the sins of the tongue.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is the false church, and it's prophets, that God will spew out, not those belonging to Christ.

Is it your belief that God will spew out those He has given to Christ? Do you deny Christ's authority? It amazes me that for someone who advocates osas can at the same time believe that Christ's church can be divided.

You are either in Christ's church, or you are not. There is no in between.

No i do not. I think he will spew the false church who claims to be his, but is not.

I agree, you are either in or out. But I also know there are false churches who claim to be the bride of Christ. This is who Christ was addressing. Just because one states to be a Church does not mean they are.

 

[superdave5221]

Are they? Think again. What has been said here is that if someone believes the bible, then because of that belief, in the bible, that they are infallible. Paul wrote that nothing, not any created thing, could separate us from the love that God has for us in Christ Jesus. But that supposes that we have entered into His love. One does that only by the Spirit, for the fruit of the Spirit is love.

No, these are not good words, they are reasonings used to back up a false belief, that Jesus will not judge His church. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I hope with all of my heart that my words do not offend you Margaret, because in Jesus I care for you just as He does.

In Christ,

You are very obtuse VW. Very unlike a prophet.

No one ever said that believers were infallible. What was said, is that the BIBLE, properly interpreted is infallible. And we interpret the bible through the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. As we grow in the spirit, Holy Spirit reveals truth to us as we are ready to receive it.

How can one, who claims to speak the language of angels, and of God, know so little of the spoken language?

Since the subject of your post is infalliblity, and the claim is that we are infallible, which we readily admit, the implication is that YOU are infallible.

Because YOU are in the spirit, and YOU enjoy the fruit of the spirit, which is love, (couldn't tell it from some of your posts), then YOU are infallible. I wonder if that phrase, "conscience seared, as with a hot iron" applies to you? Only God know that. But the pride and arrogance that you exhibit is beyond any that I have experienced in a long time.

 

[giantone]

Proverbs 6:16 *These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 *A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 *An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 *A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


I've been a Christian for quite a long time and I've seen people come and go, I've seen how some people work at destroying lives as well as entire churches and much of it starts out subtle. This shaking and evil is necessary to find out who is who.

The wheat and the tares look the same but harvest time the wheat bow down and tares stay straight (and proud) And then the tares can be picked out and burned.

As a result the church that remains is not divided.

 

[pickles]

Are they? Think again. What has been said here is that if someone believes the bible, then because of that belief, in the bible, that they are infallible. Paul wrote that nothing, not any created thing, could separate us from the love that God has for us in Christ Jesus. But that supposes that we have entered into His love. One does that only by the Spirit, for the fruit of the Spirit is love.

No, these are not good words, they are reasonings used to back up a false belief, that Jesus will not judge His church. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I hope with all of my heart that my words do not offend you Margaret, because in Jesus I care for you just as He does.

In Christ,

I think it depends on perspective.
He spoke to false prophets and those that hate the bible.
He did not speak to true prophets and those that love the bible and its teachings.
I may have missed somthing, but we are saved by Jesus, Jesus is the word.
Through faith in Jesus we are saved, and under His protection.
If this speaks only to the scriptures, and not the faith, hope and love we are called to in Jesus, thus recieving the Holy Spirit, then one should question.
I did not see this, but I do miss some things at times.
Lousy dyslexia.
I did try reading again, but I still couldnt find the issue.
I do always give praise to Gods word, not the messanger.



in Jesus, God bless.
pickles

 

[VW]

I think it depends on perspective.
He spoke to false prophets and those that hate the bible.
He did not speak to true prophets and those that love the bible and its teachings.
I may have missed somthing, but we are saved by Jesus, Jesus is the word.
Through faith in Jesus we are saved, and under His protection.
If this speaks only to the scriptures, and not the faith, hope and love we are called to in Jesus, thus recieving the Holy Spirit, then one should question.
I did not see this, but I do miss some things at times.
Lousy dyslexia.
I did try reading again, but I still couldnt find the issue.
I do always give praise to Gods word, not the messanger.



in Jesus, God bless.
pickles

Hi Pickles,

Here is the troubling phrase that superdave used:

If Jesus Christ has all authority in heaven and earth, then His church can only be divided if He allows it. Jesus is not going to allow His church to be divided for the very reasons He Himself stated above!

Satan wants us to believe that Christ's church is divided so that we will believe the false prophets he sends into the world to deceive us. He wants us to look away from God's word found in the bible, and to search for other truths claimed by those who hate the bible, for it convicts them, and reveals their untruths to the world.

Is the church one? Are, is she divided? Anyone who is honest knows the answer to that. If she was one, then she would love herself, each and ever member of herself, just as Jesus loves her. We know that this is not true, not yet.

And yet, this in no way has any bearing on the authority of Jesus.

The whole premise is false and misleading and a lie.

Jesus does not make us into something we do not want to be. He shows us His love and His life and His mercy through His grace, and if we see and have a true heart, we want that, with all that we are.

But, if we see and do not want, He does not make us into that image.

Remember, we see as in a mirror darkly, and beholding His glory we are changed into the same glory. But only if we are looking, and it is the glory that changes us. (Many do not even know what His glory is.) Most have never looked into the mirror.

In His love, (which is His glory)

 

[VW]

I have to add that Satan does not care if we are divided, as long as we do not look into the mirror and see God, and begin to be changed into His image. If that ever begins to happen, Satan knows that all his lies will be defeated, for they cannot stand in the light of God's glory. It is in His light and only in His light that the lies are destroyed.

Now, if scripture was the light, then Jesus would have said so. Search and seek and find where He says that scripture is the light. He did not say this. He said that He is the light.

In Christ,
vic

 

[pickles]

VW, I cannot speak to the understanding that you see.
I can only speak to that which is set upon my heart in Jesus.
If one speaks to the worldly church, then one would say it is devided.
But, I look to the Spiritual church of Jesus, made of all who in faith, hope and love, have accepted Jesus.
We may disagree, but the sprit of Jesus that lives in each of us is not devided.
The goal of the bible is to bring faith, to know God , Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
I understand the message you are trying to witness to.
Jesus will bring each what is needed.
The message I see in super dave's post is that Jesus will care for and keep His church protected.
I know you have concerns in this post, but I do not see them.
Not because I am blind, but because Jesus holds my attention and eyes on Himself.
Keep up the good fight, keep the faith.
God bless.
pickles

 

[AnandaHya]

Matthew 28: 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Jesus said that ALL authority has been given to Him. The word all means, All!

Matthew 16: 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church ; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. This means that death cannot overcome Christ's church. The only power Satan has over anyone is death, caused by our own sins. Satan cannot touch Christ's church.

Romans 8: 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Once again, Satan cannot touch Christ's church, or remove anyone from it.

By the way, Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan!!

Christ's church is spiritual, and cannot be divided.

Matthew 12: 25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste ; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself ; how then will his kingdom stand ?

If Jesus Christ has all authority in heaven and earth, then His church can only be divided if He allows it. Jesus is not going to allow His church to be divided for the very reasons He Himself stated above!

Satan wants us to believe that Christ's church is divided so that we will believe the false prophets he sends into the world to deceive us. He wants us to look away from God's word found in the bible, and to search for other truths claimed by those who hate the bible, for it convicts them, and reveals their untruths to the world.

Do not believe it!

perhaps Christ's spiritual church is not divided for Jesus has all authority and the Bible can be used to cut through all lies, but many earthly churches claim to be for Christ but do not display the fruits of the spirit and are corrupt.

I think Jesus would send people to speak to the flock if the under-shepherd is leading them astray, don't you?

i'm not talking about Christ's spiritual church but His lost sheep sitting in pews of wolves dressed in pastor robes. I think God would want those sheep warned of their danger. I think that is our duty as brethren to warn others who are in danger of being lead astray. I believe God asks it of all His children. lol isn't that what you are doing with this post?

that is why I think it is vital to be good LISTENERS, when we pray we also need to spend time reading the Bible and listening to the words and whatever else God has to tell us about the world and the people we need to speak God's Truth through the use of the Holy Bible into their lives.

because it is not we who speak but the Holy Spirit who speaks to His beloved children the words of edification, exhortation and comfort.

 

[AnandaHya]

I have to say I can not understand your view of Christianity and grace at all

Of course God has redeemed some of the worst sinners that have walked this earth. That has asbsolutely nothing to do with the Ten Year example you mention. Paul said he was the worst of sinners, and praise God for what he did through Paul by grace. How much of a sinner a person was before conversion is immeterial.

But if you are honest, the point put to you was. If for the following ten years after a claimed conversion experiance someone continually beat their wife, continually got drunk, had multiple affairs and did not read a Bible could they in your opinion be in a saved state?

At first you did not reply, but when you did you suggested they could well be. This has nothing to do with the state of someones sin BEFORE conversion

But like it or not grace is dependant on something, following after the Holy Spirit, if you don't follow after the Holy Spirit, biblically you are not in grace

So the question has to be asked. Could someone following after the Holy Spirit spend ten years after conversion doing constantly as I have above described? What do you think?

God judges the heart of a person. He does not ask us to judge but to HELP the one being OPPRESSED. we can pray for the person who pretends to convert, for it is a pretense if they are still able to do something like that Holy Spirit would never allow it if He was in dwell, but we are to PRAY and BLESS those who curse us and ask that God's grace save them.

However, out of love for the spouse being abused we should also aid them and help them set boundaries by showing them God's unconditional love and freeing their bonds as the Bible, God's Holy words has told us to cry with those who sorrow and break the yoke of the oppressed.

therefore our duty is to teach God's love, not judge or condemn anyone. For Jesus said He came to SAVE the world NOT condemn it, if we follow His Holy example we will seek ways to bless the world not find faults in others.


all we can do is pray and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us step by step, day by day and trust that our efforts are not wasted and will Glorify God in the larger scheme of things. In the end it should be for God's glory.

 

[AnandaHya]

I have to add that Satan does not care if we are divided, as long as we do not look into the mirror and see God, and begin to be changed into His image. If that ever begins to happen, Satan knows that all his lies will be defeated, for they cannot stand in the light of God's glory. It is in His light and only in His light that the lies are destroyed.

Now, if scripture was the light, then Jesus would have said so. Search and seek and find where He says that scripture is the light. He did not say this. He said that He is the light.

In Christ,
vic

ummm i don't think anyone here thinks scripture save, most know that Jesus saves, scripture is just the glasses so that the blind may see the glory of God and understand His grace through Jesus dying on the cross.

most of the people don't have the problem of reading too much VW. you need to understand your audience. most don't like to read scripture and the ones who do, do so out of thirst to Know Jesus will better because they LOVE GOD.

there are some who are fake and seek how to twist and corrupt and use their knowledge of the Bible for power of for pride in their knowledge, but why talk about them or to them? God will deal with them as HE sees fit, the hypocrites are not our concern.

God's children, our brethren are and they have already the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the GRACE OF GOD. grace given to us all while we were sinners still.

 

[livingbygrace]

God judges the heart of a person. He does not ask us to judge but to HELP the one being OPPRESSED. we can pray for the person who pretends to convert, for it is a pretense if they are still able to do something like that Holy Spirit would never allow it if He was in dwell, but we are to PRAY and BLESS those who curse us and ask that God's grace save them.

However, out of love for the spouse being abused we should also aid them and help them set boundaries by showing them God's unconditional love and freeing their bonds as the Bible, God's Holy words has told us to cry with those who sorrow and break the yoke of the oppressed.

therefore our duty is to teach God's love, not judge or condemn anyone. For Jesus said He came to SAVE the world NOT condemn it, if we follow His Holy example we will seek ways to bless the world not find faults in others.


all we can do is pray and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us step by step, day by day and trust that our efforts are not wasted and will Glorify God in the larger scheme of things. In the end it should be for God's glory.

Hi Ananda

I agree it is not for us to judge and condem others. But if someone continuously acted as I have described in my comment you are replying to for ten years after a proclaimed conversion experiance I know of no Christian who in reality would not come to a conclusion concerning whether the person descibed was in a saved state or not
Practiacally speaking no Christian would fail to make a discernment on such an individual. And I would suggest that if a person could constantly act as described over such a long period and be accepted by a church and allowed to stay in any church as a fellow saved Christian the harm done would be incalculable
For Christianity in the real world we live in would then be seen by many as a licence to sin, such a conclusion would be inevitable. The NT church had this problem(Jude4)
Paul said the person who slept with his Fathers wife must be expelled from the church. Such a person as I have described I am absolutely positive Paul would say must be expelled from the church, BUT if they repented and by the grace of God changed they should then be welcomed back into the church

I believe there are two extremes which must both be avoided
One is a legalistic church where in effect a persons personal goodness based on law keeping is the basis of their Christianity/continued Christianity
Second the church which proclaims 'free grace' to the extent where however you act you are accepted because you are saved by grace through faith

True Biblical teaching is that because we are saved by faith through grace true victory must follow
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom 6:14
And it is that 'narrow' road which must be followed, adhered to and proclaimed