Is Christ's church divided?

[VW]

This is why an understanding of grace that is more mature that just saying undeserved favor is essential. I used to believe exactly as does Red. And i was getting drunk, doing drugs, having affairs, mistreating my wife, (although I never beat her, thank God,) and other things just as horrible. I did these things for years after being converted. But I was shown by God that He would not receive me in that state. I had truly heard the message of Jesus Christ crucified for me, but then I was not shown by those who should have shown me, what continuing grace is. And so there was never any power over sin in my life. As time went on, I grew colder towards God and His convictions, and I used scripture to convince myself that I was saved. It was all a lie.

I was a violent enemy of the gospel of Jesus. My words of my testimony had absolutely no power. I was devoid of the power of the Spirit. God delivered me from that terrible darkness. I did not ask Him to deliver me, but He did. I am now responsible to Him to fight against that darkness with all that I am and all that He has placed in me. But this deception is so strong, it is very difficult to overcome.

Belief in the words that are written will not save us unless we ask and receive new life from above, from God. Our being crucified with Jesus, being buried with Him, to be raised up in His new resurrection life, this is real and not just some words we believe. The Holy Spirit coming to live in us and coming to fil us with His power is more real than anything that exists in this world, and more important. Our drawing near to God, in the holy place to meet Him and come to know Him, is very vital to our salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let all be clear the situation being discussed here

A person claims a conversion. For the following ten years STRAIGHT AFTER the conversion experiance is claimed a person CONTINUOUSLY GETS DRUNK, HAS continuous, MULTIPLE AFFAIRS, CONTINUOSLY BEATS THEIR WIFE, AND DOES NOT READ A BIBLE, do you believe such a person could be in a saved state. Three of us have said we do not believe such a person could be in a saved state and you have replied with the above post

Frankly, at best this is naivety, or possibly a head theology devoid of anything but the recital of empty words.
At worst it is giving the unbeliever or the lukewarm the opportunity to profess Christianity believing they can act as they like and still claim to be saved, and you would say that if anyone casts aspersions on such a persons Christianity they are judging them without mercy and grace

What does the Bible say

Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor male prostitutes or homosexual offendeers, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunmkards, nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
1 Cor 6:10

Your belief is a very dangerous one to profess and could do incalculable harm to any reading these comments who struggle with certain issues in their life. For in the real world and not one of a recital of head theology people with the help of satan will think they can do as they like and it does not matter for they are in grace.

Your Belief is not Biblical and inevitably will be seen by some as a green light to carry on sinnnig and not to worry about it

You have a strange idea of what God will and will not accept.

A person who simply stands on the fact that Christ is the son of God and has a belief in that for eternal life is condemned and has the spirit of antichrist in them.

But someone who from the moment of a claimed conversion and for the next ten years continually gets drunk, continually has affairs, continuously beats their wife and never reads a Bible may well be in a saved state and to suggest otherwise is to judge without mercy or grace. So we can no longer stand on the truth of the Bible by that criteria and proclaim the truth of the word of God.

Red you are a very mixed up young man with your beliefs. Not only on the one hand do you demand a belief that is not demanded in the Bible for a person to have eternal life, but you will be seen as giving the green light for anyone to act as they like and profess Christianity. The Bible is the final authority for Christianity, not mans theology thast contradicts the basic tenets of it

I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet. But the answer to your question is found in the book of James and Jude.

In James we have people who evidently have authority in the church (they sit people as they come in, the poor and sightly in back, and rich in the front) Which means they have probably been baptized into the church, and may even hold office. Yet James said they were hearers and not doers. The lived a life of sin and showed no growth or change in life. Their faith was DEAD, which means they never had any faith, and thus were not saved and never had been due to lack of faith and repentance.

The Jude goes even further,

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Many people can "play the game" By saying a couple words (sinners prayer), and doing a bunch of traditional ceremonies in the church. But if they have no change in their sin life. Tha's all it is. Words, With no faith or repentance. Scripture makes it clear. No one is saved unless the repent and have true faith. And those that do have these will show a change life. The people you spoke of have no changed life. they live as they did before. For this reason. I will not judge them, it is not my place. But I feel Scripture does judge them.

 

[livingbygrace]

I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet. But the answer to your question is found in the book of James and Jude.

In James we have people who evidently have authority in the church (they sit people as they come in, the poor and sightly in back, and rich in the front) Which means they have probably been baptized into the church, and may even hold office. Yet James said they were hearers and not doers. The lived a life of sin and showed no growth or change in life. Their faith was DEAD, which means they never had any faith, and thus were not saved and never had been due to lack of faith and repentance.

The Jude goes even further,

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Many people can "play the game" By saying a couple words (sinners prayer), and doing a bunch of traditional ceremonies in the church. But if they have no change in their sin life. Tha's all it is. Words, With no faith or repentance. Scripture makes it clear. No one is saved unless the repent and have true faith. And those that do have these will show a change life. The people you spoke of have no changed life. they live as they did before. For this reason. I will not judge them, it is not my place. But I feel Scripture does judge them.

Hi EG

I myself have quoted those verses in James and Jude 4 directly relating to this subject.

Red has publically stated that a person DOES NOT have to repent for salvation/at the point of conversion

I agree we are not to judge as such, we are all saved by grace through faith, but if we stand on scripture it is inevitable we would draw conclusions from such an extreme case as described.

if we are all honest here and not just partaking in theological debate. I don't know of nor have I met any Christian who would actiually consider such a person as described could be in a saved state, as you say scripture judges they could not be and we must stand on scripture


Please note the example given was for TEN YEARS AFTER A CONVERSION WAS CLAIMED these sins were continually/constantly committed
I did not say nor would I that all of these sins must be dealt with ovewrnight, that is why I gave such a long time period in the example I did
I think there is an 'EASY BELIEVISM'/free Grace in many churches today. I don't know much about it at all, only what I see written in snippets, but I think some of those churches tend more to believe however a person may act they are saved as they are in grace

 

[Red33]

I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet. But the answer to your question is found in the book of James and Jude.

In James we have people who evidently have authority in the church (they sit people as they come in, the poor and sightly in back, and rich in the front) Which means they have probably been baptized into the church, and may even hold office. Yet James said they were hearers and not doers. The lived a life of sin and showed no growth or change in life. Their faith was DEAD, which means they never had any faith, and thus were not saved and never had been due to lack of faith and repentance.

The Jude goes even further,

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Many people can "play the game" By saying a couple words (sinners prayer), and doing a bunch of traditional ceremonies in the church. But if they have no change in their sin life. Tha's all it is. Words, With no faith or repentance. Scripture makes it clear. No one is saved unless the repent and have true faith. And those that do have these will show a change life. The people you spoke of have no changed life. they live as they did before. For this reason. I will not judge them, it is not my place. But I feel Scripture does judge them.

Jesus came to seek and to save sinners but you want to judge them. Instead of judging them why don't seek them out and win them to Christ and if they are backslidden, restore them with the same grace that restored you when you lived in sin. Judging them in terms of salvation is what religious people do that have no grace in their heart for the lost or to restore their fallen brother.

 

[zone]

20*But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
21*And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
22*No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
23*And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
24*but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
25*that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. (1 Cor 12:20-25)

When we look at the body of Christ, we can see the individuals, but also the groups within the individual churches. Every church is not called to be all things to all people or communities any more than a hand is meant to perform every function of the body. Denominations and individual churches serve different needs of the church and have different focus and specialties. God will guide his children to where they will serve best. We cannot demand every church to conform in every area beyond the unity of the fundamentals.
In the fundamentals-Unity
In the non-essentials-Liberty
In all things-Charity

 

[Red33]

This is why an understanding of grace that is more mature that just saying undeserved favor is essential. I used to believe exactly as does Red. And i was getting drunk, doing drugs, having affairs, mistreating my wife, (although I never beat her, thank God,) and other things just as horrible. I did these things for years after being converted. But I was shown by God that He would not receive me in that state. I had truly heard the message of Jesus Christ crucified for me, but then I was not shown by those who should have shown me, what continuing grace is. And so there was never any power over sin in my life. As time went on, I grew colder towards God and His convictions, and I used scripture to convince myself that I was saved. It was all a lie.

I was a violent enemy of the gospel of Jesus. My words of my testimony had absolutely no power. I was devoid of the power of the Spirit. God delivered me from that terrible darkness. I did not ask Him to deliver me, but He did. I am now responsible to Him to fight against that darkness with all that I am and all that He has placed in me. But this deception is so strong, it is very difficult to overcome.

Belief in the words that are written will not save us unless we ask and receive new life from above, from God. Our being crucified with Jesus, being buried with Him, to be raised up in His new resurrection life, this is real and not just some words we believe. The Holy Spirit coming to live in us and coming to fil us with His power is more real than anything that exists in this world, and more important. Our drawing near to God, in the holy place to meet Him and come to know Him, is very vital to our salvation.

When you lived in sin you came under conviction through the Holy Spirit but you resisted that conviction for years by your own admission and the Holy Spirit became your adversary because you did not agree with him quickly. Your resistance and justification had nothing to do with the scriptures nor were you deceived by the scriptures but by your own heart of unbelief. Whether you were saved or not at that point in your life was between you and God but His ministry toward the sinner is one of reconciliation so that they may come to Him to receive grace. God does not save the sinner after He converts them, He saves the sinner when they are dead in trepasses and sins and He does it by grace whe the sinners believes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus came to seek and to save sinners but you want to judge them. Instead of judging them why don't seek them out and win them to Christ and if they are backslidden, restore them with the same grace that restored you when you lived in sin. Judging them in terms of salvation is what religious people do that have no grace in their heart for the lost or to restore their fallen brother.

1. These people are not backsliden. The never changed. A huge difference.

2. These people have stated they have christ. Thus they were given the gospel. which means they were told of their sinfulness, and Gods just condemnation they are in danger of because of this sin

3. I stated I did not judge them (you must not have read this part) But that scripture judges them.

4. Who said no one is trying to help them? It was not in the original question. I showed James response to them. If they repent and show faith by changing or at least attempting to change their lifestyle by showing works. Great, If they do not. Then turn to Jude. who judges them.

Instead red, why don't you see what type of people they are. You claim I am judging, yet it is you who judge myself. why is this?

 

[VW]

When you lived in sin you came under conviction through the Holy Spirit but you resisted that conviction for years by your own admission and the Holy Spirit became your adversary because you did not agree with him quickly. Your resistance and justification had nothing to do with the scriptures nor were you deceived by the scriptures but by your own heart of unbelief. Whether you were saved or not at that point in your life was between you and God but His ministry toward the sinner is one of reconciliation so that they may come to Him to receive grace. God does not save the sinner after He converts them, He saves the sinner when they are dead in trepasses and sins and He does it by grace whe the sinners believes.

You are getting better at making excuses. I believed exactly what I was taught in church, by men who studied the bible. And I can hear the very same arguments in your words, the same beliefs, the same teachings. And they are wrong!

But you will not hear my words, nor will you hear the words of another.

I tell you again, I believed, but because I held myself far away from God, I was not in grace. And if we are not in grace, we are under the Law, and thus under condemnation.

God saves us by causing us to be born again of His incorruptible seed. And He continues to save us by being our heart, our spirit, our conscience, our love, all by His Spirit.

Your view of salvation is false. But again, you will not believe this. Neither would I have believed if one had told me that I was lying against God. How could I be? I had what I believed straight from the bible, from the words of Paul himself. But I now know that Peter was right, was speaking for God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, when he wrote that some get twisted in Paul's words, to their destruction.

It is obvious that we cannot agree, and it is also obvious that I will not stop writing the words of life, which are grace, living in Jesus Christ and drawing near to God. It is past time for you to grow up, and learn of Him. Only little children have their sins forgiven, and this for His name's sake. Young men should have the word living in them, and thus have come to defeat the evil one. And fathers should have come to know Him who is from the beginning.

Anyway, I wish that all that I had written to you had been in His love, but I have become indignant with you several times. I ask your forgiveness, as I have asked the Father to forgive me.

In His love,

 

[zone]

If they repent and show faith by changing or at least attempting to change their lifestyle by showing works.

is this how it really works?

 

[Red33]

1. These people are not backsliden. The never changed. A huge difference.

2. These people have stated they have christ. Thus they were given the gospel. which means they were told of their sinfulness, and Gods just condemnation they are in danger of because of this sin

3. I stated I did not judge them (you must not have read this part) But that scripture judges them.

4. Who said no one is trying to help them? It was not in the original question. I showed James response to them. If they repent and show faith by changing or at least attempting to change their lifestyle by showing works. Great, If they do not. Then turn to Jude. who judges them.

Instead red, why don't you see what type of people they are. You claim I am judging, yet it is you who judge myself. why is this?

It is not difficult to see and know that all men are sinners but we were not redeemed by the blood of Christ to judge them as sinners because they are already under condemnation. We have been redeemed to seek and save the lost by giving them the same grace that we received through faith when we believed upon Christ. Whether they say they believe or not we still have a word and ministry of reconciliation toward them just as God had toward us through His Son, the one and only true God.

Anyone that lives in sin or is backslidden has no works or fruit unto God. You should not be surprised by that and should have judged that already by judging that in your own life. If anyone confesses Christ as their Saviour and is having a problem with sin, those who are spiritual (or filled with the Spirit) should go to them privately, in meekness (less you fall), with the attitude and disposition of grace to restore them from the error of their way. By doing that you have covered a multitude of sins and have gained your brother and without judging him.

If you saw a brother living in sin and you told another of his sin and were convinced that he was not saved because of his sin, and that other person went to this brother and told him what you had said, how could you go to your brother who is living in sin and restore him when you have already judged him behind his back? He would not trust you or receive you as a brother and you would have no grace to be able to gain your brother. A believer who is in Christ's stead and is motivated by the love of God does not repeat the matter (Prov 17:9).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is not difficult to see and know that all men are sinners but we were not redeemed by the blood of Christ to judge them as sinners because they are already under condemnation. We have been redeemed to seek and save the lost by giving them the same grace that we received through faith when we believed upon Christ. Whether they say they believe or not we still have a word and ministry of reconciliation toward them just as God had toward us through His Son, the one and only true God.

Anyone that lives in sin or is backslidden has no works or fruit unto God. You should not be surprised by that and should have judged that already by judging that in your own life. If anyone confesses Christ as their Saviour and is having a problem with sin, those who are spiritual (or filled with the Spirit) should go to them privately, in meekness (less you fall), with the attitude and disposition of grace to restore them from the error of their way. By doing that you have covered a multitude of sins and have gained your brother and without judging him.

If you saw a brother living in sin and you told another of his sin and were convinced that he was not saved because of his sin, and that other person went to this brother and told him what you had said, how could you go to your brother who is living in sin and restore him when you have already judged him behind his back? He would not trust you or receive you as a brother and you would have no grace to be able to gain your brother. A believer who is in Christ's stead and is motivated by the love of God does not repeat the matter (Prov 17:9).

I find it sad that you refuse to even look at the question. You have proven a point I have made many times, about how the legalistic people call me licentious and condemn me for what they call "free grace" and how the licentious judge me as being legalistic because I refuse to acknowledge that someone who claims to be saved, but has NO CHANGE IN LIFESTYLE WHATSOEVER could be saved.

If you refuse to look at the questioned asked you. and continue to speak about things which are not even asked. How do you expect anyone to consider what you are saying?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

is this how it really works?

Not sure what your asking. can you rephrase?

 

[Red33]

I find it sad that you refuse to even look at the question. You have proven a point I have made many times, about how the legalistic people call me licentious and condemn me for what they call "free grace" and how the licentious judge me as being legalistic because I refuse to acknowledge that someone who claims to be saved, but has NO CHANGE IN LIFESTYLE WHATSOEVER could be saved.

If you refuse to look at the questioned asked you. and continue to speak about things which are not even asked. How do you expect anyone to consider what you are saying?

No matter what a person may claim as to whether they are saved or not, and if that person is living in sin we are still here to minister Christ and have a ministry of reconciliation for them and toward them. In that ministry the Holy Spirit will bring conviction in the heart by grace and we hope they will respond and receive that ministry of grace and be reconciled to God and be saved or be restored in their relationship with God. But to judge them for any sin they are living in has already been judged at the cross through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We minister Christ and Him crucified that they may be forgiven and cleansed from all sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No matter what a person may claim as to whether they are saved or not, and if that person is living in sin we are still here to minister Christ and have a ministry of reconciliation for them and toward them. In that ministry the Holy Spirit will bring conviction in the heart by grace and we hope they will respond and receive that ministry of grace and be reconciled to God and be saved or be restored in their relationship with God. But to judge them for any sin they are living in has already been judged at the cross through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We minister Christ and Him crucified that they may be forgiven and cleansed from all sin.

Here we go again. That was NOT the questioned that was asked. Tell me read. why do you refuse to answer the question and keep going off on tangents. Are you afraid?

 

[zone]

If they repent and show faith by changing or at least attempting to change their lifestyle by showing works. Great, If they do not. Then turn to Jude. who judges them.

i mean, presuming the people actually heard the Gospel and repented and were saved (since you're saying they were never saved), isn't that what's required?

with the heart a man believes, and with his mouth he professes (like Peter), that profession comes from the Spirit.

doesn't the Spirit absolutely work sanctification in every believer (we're all different)?

So i'm not sure how this part is any measure of whether they are saved or how it would help in their salvation: by changing or at least attempting to change their lifestyle by showing works.

maybe its the way you worded it: did you mean to say we would see a change in their lifestyle?

showing works means nothing. lots of people do good works but aren't saved. James isn't saying "oh, you just sit around professing, you have to have good works in addition to faith to be saved". he's saying there WILL BE a change....and it will be seen.

the thing is, it's Jesus Christ who is standing at the door of that church: anyone reading that letter (or hearing it preached) would either recognize themselves and be convicted by His words and repent, or they wouldn't.

He's the one who knows their works, their condition. It's Him speaking. it's hard to tar them all with the same brush since he speaks to the church AND the individuals.

seeing any given person's life unless it's over a long period of time isn't the way to know if they are saved. lots of people stumble...lots get stuck...we all still fall short.

and many do tons of good works....what does that prove? snapshots in time in the lives of others isn't how we know: it's by what they SAY about Christ as well as how they live and what they do.

we know another by what they profess among us, as well as how they behave. Christ knows the innermost thoughts of their hearts and the course of their lives.

example: the judaizers at galatia came from jerusalem! they had apparently looked ok to james or whoever was in charge there. but it was when they got to the galatian church the truth came out: and grave it was.

anways. i think maybe it was just the way you worded it. no offense

 

[AnandaHya]

Is Judas Iscariot considered saved and redeemed by the blood of Christ even though he allowed satan to use him and betrayed Jesus? He was numbered among Jesus chosen 12, will he be in heaven and have his name written in the book of Life or not?

YouTube - You Are My King (Amazing Love) - Newsboys

 

[livingbygrace]

Is Judas Iscariot considered saved and redeemed by the blood of Christ even though he allowed satan to use him and betrayed Jesus? He was numbered among Jesus chosen 12, will he be in heaven and have his name written in the book of Life or not?

YouTube - You Are My King (Amazing Love) - Newsboys

No, Judas will not go to Heaven

Then Jesus replied
Have I not chosen you the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.
He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot who though one of the twelve was later to betray him
John 6:70

But woe to that man who betrays the son of man. It would be better for him if he had not been born
Matt 26:24

 

[Red33]

Here we go again. That was NOT the questioned that was asked. Tell me read. why do you refuse to answer the question and keep going off on tangents. Are you afraid?

You are sounding like LBG and making demands that people answer your questions. The Pharisees, the Sadducees, members of the Sanhedrin and many of the religious Jews did not live in immorality or sin like others, or as you have suggested with your example, But Christ told them that the harlots and publicans would enter the kingdom before them. That seems to be a very strange statement coming from the lips of our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not think for a minute he was condoning sin but rather was exposing the deception of the heart of those religious Jews that trusted in their own morally adjusted righteousness whether according to the law or their own conscience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i mean, presuming the people actually heard the Gospel and repented and were saved (since you're saying they were never saved), isn't that what's required?

No it is not what is required. It is what WILL happen. It is the works which prove their faith was real. in other words, works "naturally" are a product of faith. If one does not have works, he proves his faith was dead.

with the heart a man believes, and with his mouth he professes (like Peter), that profession comes from the Spirit.

Yes, But not everyone who professes believes from the heart. Not everyone who says :"Lord Lord" Will enter. Many who profess salvation, Jesus will say depart for I never knew you. Why does Jesus say he never knew them? Especially if they someone states they were saved, then lost it. FOr Jesus would be lieing, For while the person was saved, before they lost that salvation. Jesus would have known them.

doesn't the Spirit absolutely work sanctification in every believer (we're all different)?

Yes, But doesn't a person who actually have faith make a change? which naturally proceeds from repentance? Then, While the Spirit works in them to cause sanctification this change continues as the persons faith Grows in Christ through the worlk of the Spirit?

So i'm not sure how this part is any measure of whether they are saved or how it would help in their salvation: by changing or at least attempting to change their lifestyle by showing works.

A person who does not show any of these things. would they be saved? Did they have faith? or were they promoting lip service?

maybe its the way you worded it: did you mean to say we would see a change in their lifestyle?

I was just saying what James was saying. Abraham proved he had faith by doing what God asked. If Abraham did nto do it. would Abraham have had faith? No

showing works means nothing. lots of people do good works but aren't saved. James isn't saying "oh, you just sit around professing, you have to have good works in addition to faith to be saved". he's saying there WILL BE a change....and it will be seen.

Which is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

the thing is, it's Jesus Christ who is standing at the door of that church: anyone reading that letter (or hearing it preached) would either recognize themselves and be convicted by His words and repent, or they wouldn't.

Agreed. And many who do not repent may still say those words and profess Jesus. Although they have no faith in what they profess.

He's the one who knows their works, their condition. It's Him speaking. it's hard to tar them all with the same brush since he speaks to the church AND the individuals.

seeing any given person's life unless it's over a long period of time isn't the way to know if they are saved. lots of people stumble...lots get stuck...we all still fall short.

Again, The question was about a person who professed salvation. but lived a lifestyle of sin with no change. The question was not about a person who professed and after a few weeks he still struggles. We are talking a long period of time, and they have shown no remorse. no repentance, and no guilt about the lifestyle they have.

and many do tons of good works....what does that prove? snapshots in time in the lives of others isn't how we know: it's by what they SAY about Christ as well as how they live and what they do.

we know another by what they profess among us, as well as how they behave. Christ knows the innermost thoughts of their hearts and the course of their lives.

example: the judaizers at galatia came from jerusalem! they had apparently looked ok to james or whoever was in charge there. but it was when they got to the galatian church the truth came out: and grave it was.

anways. i think maybe it was just the way you worded it. no offense

Again, I was answering the question asked. If we want to talk about the "prodigal son" that is another subject. and maybe another thread. But the question asked is about a person who professes, and shows no change in lifestyle, he still remains an evil person over a long period of time. Would you think that person truly had faith?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG

I myself have quoted those verses in James and Jude 4 directly relating to this subject.

Red has publically stated that a person DOES NOT have to repent for salvation/at the point of conversion

I agree we are not to judge as such, we are all saved by grace through faith, but if we stand on scripture it is inevitable we would draw conclusions from such an extreme case as described.

if we are all honest here and not just partaking in theological debate. I don't know of nor have I met any Christian who would actiually consider such a person as described could be in a saved state, as you say scripture judges they could not be and we must stand on scripture


Please note the example given was for TEN YEARS AFTER A CONVERSION WAS CLAIMED these sins were continually/constantly committed
I did not say nor would I that all of these sins must be dealt with ovewrnight, that is why I gave such a long time period in the example I did
I think there is an 'EASY BELIEVISM'/free Grace in many churches today. I don't know much about it at all, only what I see written in snippets, but I think some of those churches tend more to believe however a person may act they are saved as they are in grace

Hey bro I somehow missed this. SO red does not think repentance is essential for salvation? How can one who is Gods enemy, come to have faith in Christ without repentance? How can one who in his own nature does not think he is a sinner and in need of a savior (which would be ALL men before salvation) come to believe he is a sinner and in need of a savior without repentance?

Has red aver answered why?