Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

James 2:20-24 KJB
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

When was Abraham justified before God?

Was it when he offered up his son?

The scripture teaches he was justified (in right standing) before God prior to offering up his son..... so "works" do not justify us before God.

Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness (Gen 15:5-6).

 

[Judges1318]

Answer: Defending the Gospel.

Problem: That's not a work that validates one's faith as being genuine. That's an act of service/sacrifice. Even those who Jesus never knew will have those:

"22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’" - Matthew 7:22


This is the kind of behavior that goes towards validating one's faith as genuine:

I respectfully disagree...

 

[BillG]

The correct question is, "what works have you done today to validate your faith as being alive and able to save?"

Why focus on the works that validate your faith?

We can all do that and pat ourselves on the back.

We need to also focus on the works that we did not do. Raise the bar as Jesus asked us to do.

Matthew 5:38 - 6:4

Go the Second Mile
(Luke 6:29–31)
38 “You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
Love Your Enemies
(Luke 6:27, 28, 32–36)
43 “You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Do Good to Please God
1 “Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.

 

[Judges1318]

I’m so glad I’m justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. He’s done all the work. Amen. Yes, I wake up looking forward to labor for the Lord. Why? Because of what He has done for me. I could never justify my salvation, even a million works would not do.

You do not understand the two Biblical uses of the word 'justified'.
One means 'to be made righteous', the other means 'to be shown to be righteous'.
Paul talks about being made righteous by faith apart from works.
James talks about being shown to have that righteousness by your works.

 

[Judges1318]

Why focus on the works that validate your faith?

Because the Bible tell us to do that, perhaps?

"10 ...make every effort to confirm your calling and election." - 2 Peter 1:10

We can talk about why we should do that if you want.

 

[VCO]

Very true. I try and only use the words of scripture. If the receive it, they’re not receiving my words but God’s words.

I am glad you are an Evangelist, thank you for your efforts for CHRIST. I thought you were talking about being a PASTOR, which needs to be Teaching the entire BIBLE throughout his Ministry. Evangelist are mostly teaching the GOSPEL, to the UNSAVED. Pastors are Teaching the mostly SAVED Congregations, and are trying to Teach in a way to lead them to Spiritual MATURITY. Over time, they should be teaching the ENTIRE BIBLE, verse by verse, but jump around from book to book, to keep it interesting.

I am unsure what TRIPPED Lightskin's trigger, but I will deal with it the only way I know how. Maybe it was my post #135,117 . Maybe it is my colored Bold Print, but it is NOT SHOUTING, as Facebook Claims, and I do not have a Facebook account. WHEN I went to High School in the 60's, it only was used for EMPHASIS, nothing more. It is HARD to teach an old dog new tricks. I hope it did not offend you, because that was NOT my purpose. My purpose was to be sure you were not teaching a Watered down Gospel of EASY BELIEVISM. I am sure you recognize those TV evangelist that ONLY tell people, "Just accept Jesus as your Savior, and You are SAVED.", and One more scalp for the ministry. That is not quite the TRUTH. That is what I mean by Easy Believism's, FALSE GOSPEL. The whole world wants a SAVIOR, almost. BUT VERY FEW WANT A LORD, THAT THEY WILL LOVINGLY SUBMIT TO, RUNNING THEIR LIVES.

Compare that to what the BIBLE actually says:

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—
that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess {Not just profess an intellectual fact as truth,} with your mouth Jesus as Lord {You have to have mourned over your deep conviction of utter Sinfulness, then surrendered to HIM as LORD of your life, out of pure Agape LOVE, first for it to be a true CONFESSION.} , and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,
and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 (NASB)
5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

Yes, I absolutely believe EASY BELIEVISM, as I described it, is a FALSE GOSPEL.

Personal History:

You see the LORD put it on my heart to move from Nebraska to California, where I carried mail by day, and I became the First Volunteer at the newest supermax Prison, by night. I was asked to use the Title: Volunteer Chaplain, because the inmates needed to know I was just part of the STAFF, not some Volunteer from the outside that they could MANIPULATE. I was at that Prison for 9 years, then moved to another town, and Volunteered in another Prison for 6 more years, which also was a supermax. My sermons were SUBJECTIVELY, because I would never have any Inmate long enough to teach verse by verse through a BOOK, so by teaching Subjectively, I was able to maximize what the inmates heard from the Pulpit. I trusted HIM to give me the WORDS HE WANTED Taught, TOTALLY. HE WAS FAITHFUL!

 

[Judges1318]

No, the point is it refutes NOSAS completely.

Two events that cannot be undone... do you think Jesus did not know what he was talking about when he used this analogy?

I suppose if the argument was a born again person can have the historical fact that he was once born again erased as if it never happened you'd have a point. But as it is, that's not the argument. The argument is, the born again person can lose the life he received when he was born again, just as a physical body can lose the life it received when it was born.

 

[John146]

You do not understand the two Biblical uses of the word 'justified'.
One means 'to be made righteous', the other means 'to be shown to be righteous'.
Paul talks about being made righteous by faith apart from works.
James talks about being shown to have that righteousness by your works.

And you get that from where? You cannot justify your salvation to anyone. One moment you appear to be saved, the next you don’t. Question, you go to the grocery store, can you honestly tell who is saved and who is lost?

 

[John146]

I am glad you are an Evangelist, thank you for your efforts for CHRIST. I thought you were talking about being a PASTOR, which needs to be Teaching the entire BIBLE throughout his Ministry. Evangelist are mostly teaching the GOSPEL, to the UNSAVED. Pastors are Teaching the mostly SAVED Congregations, and are trying to Teach in a way to lead them to Spiritual MATURITY. Over time, they should be teaching the ENTIRE BIBLE, verse by verse, but jump around from book to book, to keep it interesting.

Yes, agreed.

 

[EleventhHour]

I suppose if the argument was a born again person can have the historical fact that he was once born again erased as if it never happened you'd have a point. But as it is, that's not the argument. The argument is, the born again person can lose the life he received when he was born again, just as a physical body can lose the life it received when it was born.

Every physical body looses life.
No that does not work to show that salvation can be lost.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I’m so glad I’m justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. He’s done all the work. Amen. Yes, I wake up looking forward to labor for the Lord. Why? Because of what He has done for me. I could never justify my salvation, even a million works would not do.

The following is not directed at anyone in particular. But this post just stirred up this response from me.

And the thing that OSAS is capable of producing is annoying believers who never examine themselves but push Christianity on a world sick and tired of being told to be “saved” by people who are worse then them! Because at least their natural instinct is to do well. Whereas many OSAS’ers are puffed up with the notion that Christ did it all and no longer need to focus on living holy because that would be self righteousness and “taking your eyes off of Christ; letting go and letting Him”. As if we could hinder God in anyway.

 

[VCO]

And you get that from where? You cannot justify your salvation to anyone. One moment you appear to be saved, the next you don’t. Question, you go to the grocery store, can you honestly tell who is saved and who is lost?

For most people, NO. But YET, their are some, that MY HUMAN SPIRIT can tell THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN BROTHER OR SISTER. So when that Happens, I strike up a conversation and almost always, they too felt the SAME kinship with me, and we have an amazing conversation.

 

[CherieR]

For most people, NO. But YET, their are some, that MY HUMAN SPIRIT can tell THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN BROTHER OR SISTER. So when that Happens, I strike up a conversation and almost always, they too felt the SAME kinship with me, and we have an amazing conversation.

That's interesting VCO.

 

[BillG]

Because the Bible tell us to do that, perhaps?

"10 ...make every effort to confirm your calling and election." - 2 Peter 1:10

We can talk about why we should do that if you want.

You can tell me if you want.

I tend not focus on the works that I have done to validate my faith.
Those works tend to be in my nature as such. Natural to me.

I seek God to reveal to me the works that I should have done and did not and ask him why not.

That's why I posted the verses in my above post to you.

It's growing from Phileo to Agape love.
Look at the restoration of Peter and Jesus asking him do you love me?

Peter had to grow from Phileo to Agape (in this concourse he did not respond with I Agape with you)

Our works should demonstrate Agape love.
That is what we should seek after.
No point questioning Phileo love. It is natural.
Moving from Phileo to Agape is not.
Those are what we should seek and thank God for doing so.

 

[Judges1318]

Every physical body looses life.
No that does not work to show that salvation can be lost.

So you can see the analogy isn't very useful to prove your point.

 

[EleventhHour]

So you can see the analogy isn't very useful to prove your point.

It proves my point perfectly.
Born from above a one time event cannot be undone, no one goes back to being unregenerated.
Physical birth a one time event... no one goes back to the womb.

It demolishes NOSAS completely!

 

[Lightskin]

Problem: That's not a work that validates one's faith as being genuine. That's an act of service/sacrifice. Even those who Jesus never knew will have those:

"22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’" - Matthew 7:22

I know you already know full well that the people you mention in the scripture above didn’t have faith in Jesus Christ. Then again, maybe you fail to realize that.

 

[Judges1318]

I tend not focus on the works that I have done to validate my faith.
Those works tend to be in my nature as such. Natural to me.

I seek to do this:

"10 ...find out what pleases the Lord." - Ephesians 5:10

"17 ...understand what the Lord’s will is." - Ephesians 5:20

"10 ...live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work" - Colossians 1:10

It's often a very conscious decision to respond according to the Spirit rather than according to the flesh in daily life. Especially in this forum where one is provoked so severely by the bad behavior of others. What is spiritual for me is that I can make the spiritual choice over the fleshly one easier and easier and more often in life. Perhaps that's what you meant by responding 'naturally'.

 

[Judges1318]

I know you already know full well that the people you mention in the scripture above didn’t have faith in Jesus Christ.

That was exactly my point.
Works of service/sacrifice do not justify a person as having saving faith in Christ.
Godly character does.

 

[Judges1318]

It proves my point perfectly.
Born from above a one time event cannot be undone, no one goes back to being unregenerated.
Physical birth a one time event... no one goes back to the womb.

It demolishes NOSAS completely!

You still aren't comprehending.
Non-osas isn't making the argument that you think it's making.
The argument is not that a spiritual birth can be erased from history as if it never happened.
That's not the point being made.
The argument is that the life a person received when they were born again can be removed from the spirit of a person, just as physical life can be removed from a physical body that has been born.