Is Christ's church divided?

Red33 · Apr 16, 2011

God is all of these (7) churches is dealing with their works ...
Ephesus - Rev 2:1
Smyrna - 2:9
Pergamos - 2:13
Thyatira - 2:19
Sardis - 3:1,2
Philadelphia - 3:8
Laodicea - 3:15

In light of Jesus Christ dealing with their works, who is the living and true God and the only wise God (1Tim 1:17, Jude 25), do you see anything that is dealing with their salvation by grace, with the gift of eternal life, with God's imputed righteousness or with believing by faith in the cross of Christ. If salvation is an issue in any of these churches, in which one and how was that being communicated in the revelation of Christ to John? Is the work of faith involved in any of His counsel to Laodicea or is it just that they vacillated back and forth with being hot and cold? Were they a canal church that lived according to the pleasures of the flesh. To you what is (v.17) saying about this church and does (v.19-22) only apply to Laodicea or to the other churches mentioned as well (churches is mentioned in v.22).

AnandaHya · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

I believe my pastor described himself as the under-shepherd under the authority of the Head shepherd who is Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. Jesus would lay it on his heart and the hearts of the elders to expel such an individual for the safety of the sheep placed under their protection until they showed true fruits worthy of repentance. No one can expel anyone from JESUS's spiritual church but the earthly church has been placed under earthly authority as appointed by God for GOD controls all power on Earth and in Heaven.

a truly BIBLE based, GOD CENTERED church should have love and unlimited grace and compassion but also boundaries just as God sets boundaries and rules but loves us unconditionally. it should neither be too legalistic or too "free" or liberal.

i have been to churchs who think there are other paths besides Jesus to God and that troubles my soul.

it is those churches that will need signs and miracles to show them that their leaders LIE to them and that JESUS is the only way and they need to stop WORSHIPING their preacher or anything else besides GOD.

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

AnandaHya said:

If I wanted to be pinckety(which I don't) I could extend this subject between us on a couple of points
But you have answered my post excellently in my opinion. So it was a pleasure to read it, thank you

If I can just add a little to one point you made

Biblically speaking true signs, wonders and miracles accompany the true message being preached, so any church believing there were other paths to God than Christ would never see such evidence

eternally-gratefull · Apr 16, 2011

Red33 said:

God is all of these (7) churches is dealing with their works ...
Ephesus - Rev 2:1
Smyrna - 2:9
Pergamos - 2:13
Thyatira - 2:19
Sardis - 3:1,2
Philadelphia - 3:8
Laodicea - 3:15

In light of Jesus Christ dealing with their works, who is the living and true God and the only wise God (1Tim 1:17, Jude 25), do you see anything that is dealing with their salvation by grace, with the gift of eternal life, with God's imputed righteousness or with believing by faith in the cross of Christ. If salvation is an issue in any of these churches, in which one and how was that being communicated in the revelation of Christ to John? Is the work of faith involved in any of His counsel to Laodicea or is it just that they vacillated back and forth with being hot and cold? Were they a canal church that lived according to the pleasures of the flesh. To you what is (v.17) saying about this church and does (v.19-22) only apply to Laodicea or to the other churches mentioned as well (churches is mentioned in v.22).

All the churches but the last church had works. Only the last church does Christ say he is standing at the door knocking waiting for them to let him in. If they have not let him in yet, They are not a true church.

mpaper345 · Apr 16, 2011

Christ's Church can never be divided,no matter the different denominations.

Jesus said not everybody that calls Him Lord will be with Him,and they shall have their portion with the hypocrites.

Not everybody that claims Christ as Lord is with Him,and not all have the Holy Spirit,which if they do not then they are none of His.

The only way a person can be a Christian is if they accept Christ and are led of the Holy Spirit,which a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

That would be the true Church which is a spiritual building.

The world views Christianity as false because of all the different denominations and interpretations and fighting over God's word,but Christianity is true no matter how people act.

Red33 · Apr 16, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

(Rev 3:14) starts out like all the other churches... Unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write...

How can we say that the church in Laodicea was not recognized by the Lord Jesus Christ as a church (called out ones) that He was addressing as their head? If He was the head of the other churches and not Laodicea, then why would He address them in the same manner and be dealing with their works as He did with the others? If they did not belong to Him through His precious blood then there would be no point in addressing them as a church.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 16, 2011

Red33 said:

Well if you think a church can be a true church with god standing on the outside knocking for them to let him in. then feel free.

Many churches claim to be gods church. This was a literal church God was speaking top giving them the warning that if they did not let him in, he would spew them out of his mouth. because they claimed to be Gods church, but they were in actuality no a part of his church. Christ is in his church, he is not on the outside knocking and asking to come in.

Scotth1960 · Apr 16, 2011

superdave5221 said:

Matthew 28: 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Jesus said that ALL authority has been given to Him. The word all means, All!

Matthew 16: 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church ; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. This means that death cannot overcome Christ's church. The only power Satan has over anyone is death, caused by our own sins. Satan cannot touch Christ's church.

Romans 8: 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Once again, Satan cannot touch Christ's church, or remove anyone from it.

By the way, Jesus Christ has already defeated Satan!!

Christ's church is spiritual, and cannot be divided.

Matthew 12: 25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste ; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself ; how then will his kingdom stand ?

If Jesus Christ has all authority in heaven and earth, then His church can only be divided if He allows it. Jesus is not going to allow His church to be divided for the very reasons He Himself stated above!

Satan wants us to believe that Christ's church is divided so that we will believe the false prophets he sends into the world to deceive us. He wants us to look away from God's word found in the bible, and to search for other truths claimed by those who hate the bible, for it convicts them, and reveals their untruths to the world.

Do not believe it!

Friends, "1. Neither Protestant nor Papal
"The Orthodox vision of the church is not "protestant:, since for the Orthodox God's final covenant community within creation in his Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is a visible historical community concretely existing in space and time. The one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church of Christian faith exists on earth as Christ's body and bride, the fullness of him who fills all in all, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. ....
"In a word, the Church on earth for the Orthodox is not a necessarily partial and imperfect human organization, or number of organizations, comprising sinful individuals who express their various, at times contradictory, theologies and pieties in relation to others, whether enrichingly or adversely. It is rather the community of persons in which God acts through his divine Son and Spirit, communicating his infallible truth and untarnished holiness in human forms, which are wholly "adequate to God" for the salvation of souls. These "human forms" of the Church are the sacramental rites and liturgical offices in which the Church proclaims and celebrates her dogmas and canons, as well as the lives and teachings of her saints, in universally accepted words and images basically taken from the Holy Scriptures.
"The Church, for the Orthodox, is also not "papal." There is for the Orthodox no bishop who exercises episcopal jurisdiction over all Christians on earth, including the other bishops; and no bishop who pronounces teachings on matters of faith and morals which are necessarily binding on all church members, including the other bishops. No see has the right to appoint bishops to other sees, nor to interfere in their internal life. And the collegium of bishops, with or without a supreme bishop (be the primacy one of "jurisdiction" or "honor") does not as a body govern the universal Church."
(pages 211-212: On Ecclesial Conciliarity, by Thomas Hopko. In: THE LEGACY OF ST. VLADIMIR. Byzantium, Russia, America. Edited by J. Breck, J. Meyendorff, and E. Silk. Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir's Seminary Pres, 1990.).
In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

Tigger2 · Apr 16, 2011

superdave5221 said:

There are reportedly over 2000 denominations all expressing different views & interpretations. They can't all belong to Christ as his CHURCH. God is not the author of confusion & if you don't think they are confused why don't they all agree. So the foundational question is who is Christ's CHURCH? Certainly not the ones made by man. I belong to n denomination & have been called out by the Father. Therefor I know that I am a member of Gods Church.. Praise God for choosing me, for I am not worthy..

Tigger2 · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

I had to join in here. The indwelling of God's Holy Spirit could not tolerate behavior as you state for extended periods of time. When we ask for forgiveness we are to turn our backs on what we did previously. The Holy Spirit then gives us guidance & strength to overcome whatever our previous weaknesses were. It's impossible for a child of God indwelt with his Holy Spirit to continue in a state of sin as you describe. The person you describe was never saved in the first place. Simply because God knew his heart & that he wasn't gonna change so why cast pearls to the swine...

paulnsilas · Apr 16, 2011

Red33 said:

(Rev 3:14) starts out like all the other churches... Unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write...

How can we say that the church in Laodicea was not recognized by the Lord Jesus Christ as a church (called out ones) that He was addressing as their head? If He was the head of the other churches and not Laodicea, then why would He address them in the same manner and be dealing with their works as He did with the others? If they did not belong to Him through His precious blood then there would be no point in addressing them as a church.

I wonder if we might be seeing something similar in the mega seeker sensitive churches of today (i.e.: Saddleback, etc).

Red33 · Apr 16, 2011

Tigger2 said:

If we are to forgive a brother who might sin or trespass against us 70 X 7 (Mt 18:212,22), how long can a believer backslide before being rejected and made a castaway? Can any man put an element of time on a believer who might backslide? Can man predict the course of action a backslider may take and what sins may be involved or not involved? Then again can God reject any man that He has already received and imputed His righteousness? These are questions to think about, I am not requiring an answer for, just to ponder.

There are those that would like to put moral and ethical limits on those that God has given grace to, in order to determine their status of salvation and position in the body of Christ. They also put on probation those who have sinned in the flesh and disqualify those in leadership positions in the church who have failed or fallen into sin. Can you think of any man in the scriptures that fell into sin that God did not remove from what He had called them to do? Did Peter deny the Lord three times and warm himself at the fire of those that voted in favour of having Christ crucified?

If the Holy Spirit is grieved within the heart and soul of a backslidden Christian, what is the heart of God toward those that have backslidden? Does God stop being full of compassion and mercy and is it not His heart that they would be restored and return to Him? Did not the father of the prodigal son wait for him daily and when he saw him afar off, had compassion, ran and fell on his neck and kissed him (Lk 15:20)?

AnandaHya · Apr 16, 2011

Red22 no one could ever take anyone God has set apart and claimed as HIS but he still expects us to act with honesty and common sense and not allow the sinner to abuse or hurt others without consequences. you talk about compassion for the sinner, what about compassion for the victim?

are you saying the person should remain a pastor if caught having improper relations with a teenager or that they should not have to answer for their sins because they claim to be of God?

GOD will decide who gets into Heaven and who is casted into Hell but He has given us the authority and responsibility to protect those placed in our care.

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

AnandaHya said:

The question relating to this was

What if a person CONTINUALLY after claiming a conversion experiance for the next ten years beat their wife, continually got drunk, had multiple affairs and didn't read a bible could they be in a saved state, or remain in one?

So the issue is not one of backsliding since from conversion they acted that way and there was no change in their life for the next ten years

Biblically speaking you would have to DISCERN the person was never saved, even although they claimed to be

As Tigger said. They were never saved in the first place

VW · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

If a person is in this state, they have not found grace. They have heard the call, but rather than receive the truth of the Holy Spirit who changes us from the inside, they have instead trusted in words and actions and works, none of which will save the sinner, and are totally ineffectual in changing the actions of a person. When we meet God, when we receive the Holy Spirit, He will convict us of sin. If we ignore Him, He will be grieved. Grieve Him enough and there will be consequences with God Himself.

In Christ.

Red33 · Apr 16, 2011

If you want to judge others without mercy and grace, go right ahead. Just remember this, that Christ died for you when you were dead in trespasses and sins. When He was on the cross, as almighty God in the flesh, He shed His blood, never opened His mouth in judgment of a single sinner, but laid His life down by taking our guilty sins upon His body and through death was judged in our place by becoming sin. That was the mind of Christ toward sinners. He came to seek and save that which is lost. He did not come to judge but to save sinners. Do we have that same mind toward sinners or are we in the habit of judging them of that which they are guilty?

If we judge them we will never seek them out and lead them to the grace of God through Jesus Christ. The good news is that God came here in the flesh through His Son and took our sins and was judged through death. This is the love of God toward sinful man. The just for the unjust. Maybe there are those that think they know the grace of God but in reality are only legalistic toward those that deserve the grace of God the least. The consequences of our sin was paid for by Christ and for us to have to pay for those sins would be double jeopardy. Christ paid for the sins of the world ONCE and for ALL. Is not this the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that we preach?

paulnsilas · Apr 16, 2011

Red33 said:

If you want to judge others without mercy and grace, go right ahead. Just remember this, that Christ died for you when you were dead in trespasses and sins. When He was on the cross, as almighty God in the flesh, He shed His blood, never opened His mouth in judgment of a single sinner, but laid His life down by taking our guilty sins upon His body and through death was judged in our place by becoming sin. That was the mind of Christ toward sinners. He came to seek and save that which is lost. He did not come to judge but to save sinners. Do we have that same mind toward sinners or are we in the habit of judging them of that which they are guilty?

If we judge them we will never seek them out and lead them to the grace of God through Jesus Christ. The good news is that God came here in the flesh through His Son and took our sins and was judged through death. This is the love of God toward sinful man. The just for the unjust. Maybe there are those that think they know the grace of God but in reality are only legalistic toward those that deserve the grace of God the least. The consequences of our sin was paid for by Christ and for us to have to pay for those sins would be double jeopardy. Christ paid for the sins of the world ONCE and for ALL. Is not this the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that we preach?

Nicely said.
We wretched sinners are not merely pardoned: we receive a full aquittal.
How Great is Our God.

His Righteousness for our unrighteousness.
sigh.

VW · Apr 16, 2011

Red33 said:

I grow more afraid for you with every word you write that I read. I, sorryfully do not read all of your words, as they become a burden after a while.
In God, there is no sin. If any one sins and says that they are in Christ, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them. You suppose that I have judged, even so in a hypothetical situation, but as usual, you have missed what my intent was. Consider what Paul said about such a one, that they would be saved as by fire, but would suffer great loss in that salvation.

From the Spirit I say to you that you should be careful, lest you fall. For you are using the words of Gid to excuse and condone sin. This God has never done. Even when the jews brought the adulteress before Him, and He did not condemn Her, Jesus told her to go and sin no more.

Your arrogance is close to bringing you low, and I pray that God is gracious to you when it all comes apart. There is no greater blindness than that of the religious sinner who is convinced that he is righteous because he believes the bible.

endofallfears · Apr 17, 2011

20*But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
21*And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
22*No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
23*And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
24*but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
25*that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. (1 Cor 12:20-25)

When we look at the body of Christ, we can see the individuals, but also the groups within the individual churches. Every church is not called to be all things to all people or communities any more than a hand is meant to perform every function of the body. Denominations and individual churches serve different needs of the church and have different focus and specialties. God will guide his children to where they will serve best. We cannot demand every church to conform in every area beyond the unity of the fundamentals.
In the fundamentals-Unity
In the non-essentials-Liberty
In all things-Charity

livingbygrace · Apr 17, 2011

Red33 said:

Let all be clear the situation being discussed here

A person claims a conversion. For the following ten years STRAIGHT AFTER the conversion experiance is claimed a person CONTINUOUSLY GETS DRUNK, HAS continuous, MULTIPLE AFFAIRS, CONTINUOSLY BEATS THEIR WIFE, AND DOES NOT READ A BIBLE, do you believe such a person could be in a saved state. Three of us have said we do not believe such a person could be in a saved state and you have replied with the above post

Frankly, at best this is naivety, or possibly a head theology devoid of anything but the recital of empty words.
At worst it is giving the unbeliever or the lukewarm the opportunity to profess Christianity believing they can act as they like and still claim to be saved, and you would say that if anyone casts aspersions on such a persons Christianity they are judging them without mercy and grace

What does the Bible say

Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor male prostitutes or homosexual offendeers, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunmkards, nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
1 Cor 6:10

Your belief is a very dangerous one to profess and could do incalculable harm to any reading these comments who struggle with certain issues in their life. For in the real world and not one of a recital of head theology people with the help of satan will think they can do as they like and it does not matter for they are in grace.

Your Belief is not Biblical and inevitably will be seen by some as a green light to carry on sinnnig and not to worry about it

You have a strange idea of what God will and will not accept.

A person who simply stands on the fact that Christ is the son of God and has a belief in that for eternal life is condemned and has the spirit of antichrist in them.

But someone who from the moment of a claimed conversion and for the next ten years continually gets drunk, continually has affairs, continuously beats their wife and never reads a Bible may well be in a saved state and to suggest otherwise is to judge without mercy or grace. So we can no longer stand on the truth of the Bible by that criteria and proclaim the truth of the word of God.

Red you are a very mixed up young man with your beliefs. Not only on the one hand do you demand a belief that is not demanded in the Bible for a person to have eternal life, but you will be seen as giving the green light for anyone to act as they like and profess Christianity. The Bible is the final authority for Christianity, not mans theology thast contradicts the basic tenets of it

Is Christ's church divided?

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