Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians
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I Agree 100% Amen, A Fact As Seen In Scripture!
You will closely note that the plagues "Specifically" are brought upon the Beast and His Kingdom/Followers.
You will closely note, the "Two Witnesses" in Rev 11 below control all plagues coming on earth, the good guys pitching for "Team Jesus"!
Revelation 16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
"ALL PLAGUES AS OFTEN AS THEY WILL" A Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt!
Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
God's divine protection and promise during the tribulation.
If they try to jail or kill, in return they will be jailed killed?
Open your ears to God's protection!
This is the patience of the Church during the tribulation.
Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
The final hours of earth's temptation, the Church is instructed to enter their dwellings until the indignation of wrath is past, just like the Passover in Egypt.
Isaiah 25:119-21KJV
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
You will closely note that the plagues "Specifically" are brought upon the Beast and His Kingdom/Followers.
You will closely note, the "Two Witnesses" in Rev 11 below control all plagues coming on earth, the good guys pitching for "Team Jesus"!
Revelation 16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
"ALL PLAGUES AS OFTEN AS THEY WILL" A Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt!
Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
God's divine protection and promise during the tribulation.
If they try to jail or kill, in return they will be jailed killed?
Open your ears to God's protection!
This is the patience of the Church during the tribulation.
Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
The final hours of earth's temptation, the Church is instructed to enter their dwellings until the indignation of wrath is past, just like the Passover in Egypt.
Isaiah 25:119-21KJV
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Here we go again 
The vast "Majority" of christians believe in a future (rapture/catching up) of the believer
The argument on this forum appears to be, not all christians believe in dispensationalism's (Pre-Trib) position.
When talking about (rapture/catching up. There are basically 3 positions.
I believe and teach of the Post-Trib position.
1.) Pre-Trib
2.) Mid-Trib
3.) Post- Trib
The vast "Majority" of christians believe in a future (rapture/catching up) of the believer
The argument on this forum appears to be, not all christians believe in dispensationalism's (Pre-Trib) position.
When talking about (rapture/catching up. There are basically 3 positions.
I believe and teach of the Post-Trib position.
1.) Pre-Trib
2.) Mid-Trib
3.) Post- Trib
It isn't the debate of the timing of the rapture I am against I hold nothing against anyone who believes in any of the timing of it but for people to attack the doctrine itself as if it isn't real or in scripture that is when I will step in against their arguments.
The debate of the timing is the most debating and most dividing doctrine I have ever seen a never ending argument with no one actually considering they could actually be wrong and try to look at it from a different perspective so I don't involve myself to much in that anymore I have seen the fruits ift produces and rarely ever is it good.
I agree that Revelation 16:3 hasn't happen yet but those are the bowls/vials. But they don't happen until after the scene in Revelation 14:14-15 when we see the Son of Man on a cloud being commanded to reap the ripe earth. The imagery is clearly the gathering/resurrection.
...but what's important to note is that prior to that resurrection/gathering scene are a lot of chapters covering other events.
- The 7 seals opening
- The 7 trumpets blowing
- The dragon and 2 beasts appearing
- The persecuting of the saints
- Then the Son of Man on a cloud reaping (resurrection)
- The Bowls/Vials of wrath pouring out
...but what's important to note is that prior to that resurrection/gathering scene are a lot of chapters covering other events.
- The 7 seals opening
- The 7 trumpets blowing
- The dragon and 2 beasts appearing
- The persecuting of the saints
- Then the Son of Man on a cloud reaping (resurrection)
- The Bowls/Vials of wrath pouring out
Well it depends really, for some it is simply the absolute refusal to change what they think they know for others it can simply be a matter of lacking the understanding of what the scriptures are saying. This is why I give room for people if they are debating and not getting what is being said because they may very well be the kind of person who simply refuses to learn or change their understanding but they also could be someone who simply is misunderstanding what the scriptures say.
If it can be a civial discussion then I am all for debating the rapture but as I am sure you have seen on here not to many people can do that in a mature and cival manner without name calling attacking and using scripture like a weapon against each other. I believe in a second coming of Jesus but when I look at the scriptures from a different perspective I can see where the confusion might come.
For some it might be obvious what it says but not everyone has the same understanding and insight.
If it can be a civial discussion then I am all for debating the rapture but as I am sure you have seen on here not to many people can do that in a mature and cival manner without name calling attacking and using scripture like a weapon against each other. I believe in a second coming of Jesus but when I look at the scriptures from a different perspective I can see where the confusion might come.
For some it might be obvious what it says but not everyone has the same understanding and insight.
I hope you aren't claiming that Paul's reference to a mystery is about the timing?
And not simply the resurrection/rapture itself.
We are told what the mystery is. When it will unfold and that it has been announced.
Mystery
1 Cor 15: 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Rev 10:7
But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.’
Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.
We shouldn't be following any teaching that tells us to disregard the harmonised flow of all prophecy.
And not simply the resurrection/rapture itself.
We are told what the mystery is. When it will unfold and that it has been announced.
Mystery
1 Cor 15: 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Rev 10:7
But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.’
Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.
We shouldn't be following any teaching that tells us to disregard the harmonised flow of all prophecy.
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Just starting here... the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is at eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown"... which is consistent with what Paul had put elsewhere about how "the Day of the Lord ARRIVES" like a thief "IN THE NIGHT" (this is when the JUDGMENTS begin to unfold upon the earth in the trib yrs).
So, yes, Paul speaks to the TIMING issue LOTS.
He also had said, v.3 "that day [the trib yrs OF JUDGMENTS unfolding, from v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [the "noun-event" of v.1 (our Rapture)] FIRST, and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..." (this SEQUENCE is REPEATED 3x in this text, and is the SAME SEQUENCE as found in 1Th4-5... not to mention in Rev5, as I mentioned before).
Then there is the issue of multiple "trumpets" and the specific "sounds" they give [shades of 1Cor14:8]... like Numbers 10:4 "but if just ONE sounds, then the PRINCES, which are the HEADS of the thousands... shall gather UNTO THEE [/unto Moses]"
So, yes, Paul speaks to the TIMING issue LOTS.
He also had said, v.3 "that day [the trib yrs OF JUDGMENTS unfolding, from v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [the "noun-event" of v.1 (our Rapture)] FIRST, and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..." (this SEQUENCE is REPEATED 3x in this text, and is the SAME SEQUENCE as found in 1Th4-5... not to mention in Rev5, as I mentioned before).
Then there is the issue of multiple "trumpets" and the specific "sounds" they give [shades of 1Cor14:8]... like Numbers 10:4 "but if just ONE sounds, then the PRINCES, which are the HEADS of the thousands... shall gather UNTO THEE [/unto Moses]"
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Your claim in red above is?
Once upon A Time, In The Land Of Wizards And Goblins, real big smiles!
Once upon A Time, In The Land Of Wizards And Goblins, real big smiles!
Your claim in red above is?
Once upon A Time, In The Land Of Wizards And Goblins, real big smiles!
Once upon A Time, In The Land Of Wizards And Goblins, real big smiles!
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The phrase "the Day of the Lord" (note: 2Th2:2 should read "[purporting that] DOTL IS PRESENT") includes ALL THREE of the following:
1) the 7-yr trib upon the earth ("IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" aspect [JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth]);
2) His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect);
3) His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect ["BLESSINGs" which follow the former aspect])
ALL THREE ^
= the DOTL [earthly-located TIME PERIOD]
1) the 7-yr trib upon the earth ("IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" aspect [JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth]);
2) His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect);
3) His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect ["BLESSINGs" which follow the former aspect])
ALL THREE ^
= the DOTL [earthly-located TIME PERIOD]
The reference to "The Twinkling Of an Eye" is in the "Literal" sense of the human eye blinking.
This teaches that the resurrection and catching up is quick, a "Literal" fraction of a second, a "Moment" in "Literal" time.
God's word is simple and easy to understand.
1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This teaches that the resurrection and catching up is quick, a "Literal" fraction of a second, a "Moment" in "Literal" time.
God's word is simple and easy to understand.
1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Consider the following passage:
" 16 because the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then [epeita - "properly, only then (emphasizing what precedes is a necessary precursor)."] we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord."
["first" (which speaks to the "resurrection ['to stand again on the earth']" of the "dead in Christ"... FIRST) and the word "THEN [epeita - 'only then']" shows a SEQUENCE... between these two specific items]
" 16 because the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then [epeita - "properly, only then (emphasizing what precedes is a necessary precursor)."] we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord."
["first" (which speaks to the "resurrection ['to stand again on the earth']" of the "dead in Christ"... FIRST) and the word "THEN [epeita - 'only then']" shows a SEQUENCE... between these two specific items]
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A lot of people don't agree with what you just stated but I do definitely agree with it. I think the day begins with the Lamb receiving the seven sealed scroll in heaven, where no man can witness it and therefore no man knows the day or the hour. It also eliminates any conflict that might arise in the Scripture.
Once again, the change that takes place is from mortal to immortal, from the sinful nature, to the glorified state. At the time of the resurrection, all believers will be changed immortal and glorified and snatched up at the same instant. The scripture does not even hint at the idea of each individual believer being changed at different times. There are two elements to this event:
1). This current body will be changed from mortal to immortal, from the sinful nature to glorified
2). All believers in our immortal glorified bodies It will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. It will be an instantaneous change and snatching up in the air for all living believers.
If you will read over those two scriptures that I previously posted you will get it. Just keep reading them and pay attention to the details.
1). This current body will be changed from mortal to immortal, from the sinful nature to glorified
2). All believers in our immortal glorified bodies It will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. It will be an instantaneous change and snatching up in the air for all living believers.
If you will read over those two scriptures that I previously posted you will get it. Just keep reading them and pay attention to the details.
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye
I really want you to understand this RevelationMan. If you will look at 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 above, the "we will not all sleep" means that not everyone will be dead, i.e. there will be living believers on the earth when the resurrection takes place. And "we", i.e. those living believers" will all be changed "in an instant." That would infer that those in Christ who are still alive at the time the resurrection takes place, will all be instantly changed all at the same time and caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
As the scripture states, the dead will be resurrected first, then the those in Christ who are still alive, will all be instantly changed immortal and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church from its beginning to the end, will be gathered in the air all at the same time, meeting the Lord in the air. Then in fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, He will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. Aside from taking on the characteristics of Christ, i.e. bearing fruit, no individuals are being changed immortal as we live this life. That 'change' is an event that will take place in a nanosecond.
"For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
First the dead will be raised (all at the same time)
Then 'we' (all of those still alive in Christ) will all be changed and caught up with the resurrected at the same time, in an instant
I really want you to understand this RevelationMan. If you will look at 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 above, the "we will not all sleep" means that not everyone will be dead, i.e. there will be living believers on the earth when the resurrection takes place. And "we", i.e. those living believers" will all be changed "in an instant." That would infer that those in Christ who are still alive at the time the resurrection takes place, will all be instantly changed all at the same time and caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
As the scripture states, the dead will be resurrected first, then the those in Christ who are still alive, will all be instantly changed immortal and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church from its beginning to the end, will be gathered in the air all at the same time, meeting the Lord in the air. Then in fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, He will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. Aside from taking on the characteristics of Christ, i.e. bearing fruit, no individuals are being changed immortal as we live this life. That 'change' is an event that will take place in a nanosecond.
"For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
First the dead will be raised (all at the same time)
Then 'we' (all of those still alive in Christ) will all be changed and caught up with the resurrected at the same time, in an instant
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Yes it does reference to it happening like a flash but not simply because the twinkling of an eye means that. The twinkling of an eye was also used to describe what happens when at the right time as the sun is seconds away from disappearing from view at sunset and it becomes completely dark a special thing sometimes happen but you have to watch very carefully because it will disappear in an instant
If you are able to look at the horizon in full view when the sun is at it's last bit of sight a small flash happens as it disappears. Scientist call it something that I can't remember but basically it is a trick of the eye what appears as a flash is just how our eyes reflect light to see and so for a mere few seconds our eyes haven't registered the departure of the light we are a few seconds slower
we say a blink of an eye but they were talking about what happens at sundown basically it is the same thing
If you are able to look at the horizon in full view when the sun is at it's last bit of sight a small flash happens as it disappears. Scientist call it something that I can't remember but basically it is a trick of the eye what appears as a flash is just how our eyes reflect light to see and so for a mere few seconds our eyes haven't registered the departure of the light we are a few seconds slower
we say a blink of an eye but they were talking about what happens at sundown basically it is the same thing
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