Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians
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No, you added the "future literal" last day. Did you know there are many last days in the bible? There was the last day of Jesus life, there was the last day of the Old Covenant, a last day of the old heaven and a last day that Jesus was in hell. Considering that you quoted verses that say the heavens shall pass away, and the OLD HEAVEN did pass away at the resurrection of Christ, why would you not accept the last day as being the resurrection of Christ?
I agree, Jesus CAN NOT come until the man of sin is revealed. But we are also told that Paul had already explained this to the Thessalonians.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Below is ONLY PART of what he told them, the rest is spread out over 1 Thessalonians.
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
Did you catch what Paul said there? He said that the Thessalonians were ALREADY IN THE PRESENCE of our Lord Jesus Christ AT HIS COMING! So Christ has ALREADY come and they are IN HIS PRESENCE.
I have much much more to say about the man of sin, but if you want believe 1 Thessalonians 2:19, you darn sure wont believe what I have to say about the man of sin.... even though what I will say is the pure gospel truth.
I fully expect you to hit the commentaries and come back with 10 different greek words that twist those English words into the false anitchrist Jewish futurist heresy.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Below is ONLY PART of what he told them, the rest is spread out over 1 Thessalonians.
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
Did you catch what Paul said there? He said that the Thessalonians were ALREADY IN THE PRESENCE of our Lord Jesus Christ AT HIS COMING! So Christ has ALREADY come and they are IN HIS PRESENCE.
I have much much more to say about the man of sin, but if you want believe 1 Thessalonians 2:19, you darn sure wont believe what I have to say about the man of sin.... even though what I will say is the pure gospel truth.
I fully expect you to hit the commentaries and come back with 10 different greek words that twist those English words into the false anitchrist Jewish futurist heresy.
You are contradicting Hebrews 11:5, which clearly states that Enoch did NOT "see" or "experience" death. All the other saints did die, but Enoch is singled out as the one who was raptured.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see* death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
* Strong's Concordance (3708)
horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
Original Word: ὁράω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horaó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
Definition: to see, perceive, attend to
Usage: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3708: ό᾿πτω
3. to see i. e. to become acquainted with by experience, to experience: ζωήν, equivalent to to become a partaker of, John 3:36; ἡμέραν (cf. Germanerleben; see εἰδῶ, I. 5), Luke 17:22 (Sophocles O. R. 831).
There is no profit in insisting on false doctrines after the Bible refutes you. Keep in mind that those who are wilfully blind are prevented from seeing the truth.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see* death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
* Strong's Concordance (3708)
horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
Original Word: ὁράω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horaó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
Definition: to see, perceive, attend to
Usage: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3708: ό᾿πτω
3. to see i. e. to become acquainted with by experience, to experience: ζωήν, equivalent to to become a partaker of, John 3:36; ἡμέραν (cf. Germanerleben; see εἰδῶ, I. 5), Luke 17:22 (Sophocles O. R. 831).
There is no profit in insisting on false doctrines after the Bible refutes you. Keep in mind that those who are wilfully blind are prevented from seeing the truth.
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Well, besides the point that that is NOT what point I was making...
Coz I've said repeatedly that Paul is telling them the trib cannot be present (with its "man of sin") until we're OUTTA HERE *first* (same sequence as he supplied in 1Th4-thru-5, by the way!)
The text states, "For who our hope or joy or crown of rejoicing/boasting, other than you [/if it is not you] yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming" and verse 20 goes on to say, "For you are our glory and joy."
So, he is talking to real human Christians at the time , who really existed on the earth at the time he wrote his letter, and talks about "you"...[who will be] "in the presence of our Lord Jesus AT HIS COMING" (Paul is not saying, you are now up there in His presence physically... but you will be, AT HIS COMING... that is, at the time of our Rapture [IN THE AIR] which is what 2Th2:1's Subject is [not 2Th2:2's])
Yes, but I think you have not.
Well, perhaps you are trying to equate this passage with the "positional truths [/legal position]" of other passages elsewhere (it's doubtful, coz you haven't thus far, lol), but Paul is not speaking of that here.
About that, I will just say that a number of passages speak of that specific point in time (of his arrival--yet future):
--at "the Day of the Lord's ARRIVAL" 1Th5:2-3, Paul says it's like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman in labor (and that the Thessalonians "know perfectly" this fact);
--that is, the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3] that Jesus ALSO spoke of when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" in His Olivet Discourse (so the FIRST one OF THOSE being specifically Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]");
--and "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are PARALLEL (are the EQUIVALENT of) the "SEALS" of Revelation 6... so the FIRST SEAL = the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" TIME PERIOD (1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5), but MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from that point; it is not "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth PANGS";
--so in 2Th2:2-3,7b-8a,9a, Paul is also talking about what happens at the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" TIME PERIOD, and that is (just like the other passages above ^ ) the "whose COMING [ARRIVAL/advent/presence/parousia]" of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (that is, in the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" time period, yet future--see Amos 5:18,20 for just one small example); But Paul here in 2Th2:3-9a is not merely covering a "singular point in time" [as tho "the man of sin" is DESTROYED upon the man of sin's ARRIVAL] nor merely a "3.5 yr" period of time [as tho the man of sin ARRIVES at the point in time when "he SITTETH"... NO!], but he is covering [in this text] the ENTIRE "7-yr period of time" [not only his ARRIVAL point in time, but his SITTETH point in time, as well as his 'BE DESTROYED' point in time--ALL of which, all told, SPANS a DURATION of 7-yrs, just like other passages show, which are covering the same Subject]
--IT'S NOT SO MUCH ABOUT *the Greek* as it is about the CHRONOLOGY (of events) [seein' if you'll read this sentence, since it's in the "midst" of my text, LOL] ;
--that's all I'm going to put for now, coz it is very doubtful you will even read and EXAMINE even this much (which is miniscule compared to what all I could put! LOL)... your mind is already made up about your thinking "the man of sin" is the "flesh" part of you as an individual [and same for every individual]. ; ] I get it. You do not want to consider anything else as being worth examining... so, you won't.
Have a great day! I'm off to get some stuff done... hopefully! LOL[/QUOTE]
Coz I've said repeatedly that Paul is telling them the trib cannot be present (with its "man of sin") until we're OUTTA HERE *first* (same sequence as he supplied in 1Th4-thru-5, by the way!)
The text states, "For who our hope or joy or crown of rejoicing/boasting, other than you [/if it is not you] yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming" and verse 20 goes on to say, "For you are our glory and joy."
So, he is talking to real human Christians at the time
, who really existed on the earth at the time he wrote his letter, and talks about "you"...[who will be] "in the presence of our Lord Jesus AT HIS COMING" (Paul is not saying, you are now up there in His presence physically... but you will be, AT HIS COMING... that is, at the time of our Rapture [IN THE AIR] which is what 2Th2:1's Subject is [not 2Th2:2's])Yes, but I think you have not.
Well, perhaps you are trying to equate this passage with the "positional truths [/legal position]" of other passages elsewhere (it's doubtful, coz you haven't thus far, lol), but Paul is not speaking of that here.
I have much much more to say about the man of sin, but if you want believe 1 Thessalonians 2:19, you darn sure wont believe what I have to say about the man of sin.... even though what I will say is the pure gospel truth.
I fully expect you to hit the commentaries and come back with 10 different greek words that twist those English words into the false anitchrist Jewish futurist heresy.
I fully expect you to hit the commentaries and come back with 10 different greek words that twist those English words into the false anitchrist Jewish futurist heresy.
--at "the Day of the Lord's ARRIVAL" 1Th5:2-3, Paul says it's like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman in labor (and that the Thessalonians "know perfectly" this fact);
--that is, the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3] that Jesus ALSO spoke of when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" in His Olivet Discourse (so the FIRST one OF THOSE being specifically Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]");
--and "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are PARALLEL (are the EQUIVALENT of) the "SEALS" of Revelation 6... so the FIRST SEAL = the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" TIME PERIOD (1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5), but MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from that point; it is not "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth PANGS";
--so in 2Th2:2-3,7b-8a,9a, Paul is also talking about what happens at the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" TIME PERIOD, and that is (just like the other passages above ^ ) the "whose COMING [ARRIVAL/advent/presence/parousia]" of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (that is, in the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" time period, yet future--see Amos 5:18,20 for just one small example); But Paul here in 2Th2:3-9a is not merely covering a "singular point in time" [as tho "the man of sin" is DESTROYED upon the man of sin's ARRIVAL] nor merely a "3.5 yr" period of time [as tho the man of sin ARRIVES at the point in time when "he SITTETH"... NO!], but he is covering [in this text] the ENTIRE "7-yr period of time" [not only his ARRIVAL point in time, but his SITTETH point in time, as well as his 'BE DESTROYED' point in time--ALL of which, all told, SPANS a DURATION of 7-yrs, just like other passages show, which are covering the same Subject]
--IT'S NOT SO MUCH ABOUT *the Greek* as it is about the CHRONOLOGY (of events)
[seein' if you'll read this sentence, since it's in the "midst" of my text, LOL] ;--that's all I'm going to put for now, coz it is very doubtful you will even read and EXAMINE even this much (which is miniscule compared to what all I could put! LOL)... your mind is already made up about your thinking "the man of sin" is the "flesh" part of you as an individual [and same for every individual]. ; ] I get it. You do not want to consider anything else as being worth examining... so, you won't.
Have a great day! I'm off to get some stuff done... hopefully! LOL[/QUOTE]
The false doctrine is coming from you. You believe some parts of the Bible and you don’t believe other parts of it. Let me see if I can put this in terms that you might accept.
Enoch didn’t see death because Enoch was RAPTURED out of his body BEFORE that body died.
Are you getting it now? All bible verses are being considered and none are being tossed out. Enochs body died just like all bodies that CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of God, die.
I think one issue that you are having, outside of the issue of only believing the Bible verses that promote your view and ignoring the rest, the other thing is that you apparently think that this body is somehow necessary to bring about our new bodies.
This body isn’t changed, we are changed in the twinkling of an eye into our new bodies and the old body rots in the ground.
Do you think this body is necessary to produce our new bodies?
Enoch didn’t see death because Enoch was RAPTURED out of his body BEFORE that body died.
Are you getting it now? All bible verses are being considered and none are being tossed out. Enochs body died just like all bodies that CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of God, die.
I think one issue that you are having, outside of the issue of only believing the Bible verses that promote your view and ignoring the rest, the other thing is that you apparently think that this body is somehow necessary to bring about our new bodies.
This body isn’t changed, we are changed in the twinkling of an eye into our new bodies and the old body rots in the ground.
Do you think this body is necessary to produce our new bodies?
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What do you believe Jesus meant when He said the following (AFTER His Resurrection)? :
"See My hands and My feet, that I am He. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having." - Luke 24:39
____________
Also... for the readers to consider... Can you see the distinctions in the following two verses? :
1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"
2 John 1:7 -
"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
Do you see any distinction between the phrases:
--"[JC] having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and
--"[JC] coming [present participle] in flesh" [<--compare this "coming [present participle]" to that of same, found in 1Th1:10, for example]
"See My hands and My feet, that I am He. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having." - Luke 24:39
____________
Also... for the readers to consider... Can you see the distinctions in the following two verses? :
1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"
2 John 1:7 -
"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
Do you see any distinction between the phrases:
--"[JC] having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and
--"[JC] coming [present participle] in flesh" [<--compare this "coming [present participle]" to that of same, found in 1Th1:10, for example]
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
The KJV doesn't say that, not even close. The KJV asks the question, WHAT (not who) is the believer's hope, joy and crown of rejoicing and then gives a hidden answer in the form of a question. A believers hope, joy, and crown of rejoicing is in the coming of Jesus, the rising of the Day Star in our hearts. Which is the same hope as the Thessalonians who were PRESENTLY in the presence of Jesus at his coming.
Here's an analogy of what's being said in the KJV. What is my favorite chat site? Are not even you enjoying Christian Chat?
I answered that question in the form of a question but by what I said, you know that my favorite chat site is Christian Chat. I did check the antichrist bibles and they do say it as you said it. Paul's hope, joy and crown of rejoicing is in Paul being able to boast to the Lord about the number of believers he's brought in.
It's like you can't fathom that Christ COMES to the believer when we are saved. We didn't have him before, so he had to COME into our lives lol. That's what those verses are talking about. Those Thessalonians were in the presence of the Lord.... I'm trying to help you get there too!
The KJV doesn't say that, not even close. The KJV asks the question, WHAT (not who) is the believer's hope, joy and crown of rejoicing and then gives a hidden answer in the form of a question. A believers hope, joy, and crown of rejoicing is in the coming of Jesus, the rising of the Day Star in our hearts. Which is the same hope as the Thessalonians who were PRESENTLY in the presence of Jesus at his coming.
Here's an analogy of what's being said in the KJV. What is my favorite chat site? Are not even you enjoying Christian Chat?
I answered that question in the form of a question but by what I said, you know that my favorite chat site is Christian Chat. I did check the antichrist bibles and they do say it as you said it. Paul's hope, joy and crown of rejoicing is in Paul being able to boast to the Lord about the number of believers he's brought in.
So, he is talking to real human Christians at the time , who really existed on the earth at the time he wrote his letter, and talks about "you"...[who will be] "in the presence of our Lord Jesus AT HIS COMING" (Paul is not saying, you are now up there in His presence physically... but you will be, AT HIS COMING... that is, at the time of our Rapture [IN THE AIR] which is what 2Th2:1's Subject is [not 2Th2:2's])
Yes, but I think you have not.
, who really existed on the earth at the time he wrote his letter, and talks about "you"...[who will be] "in the presence of our Lord Jesus AT HIS COMING" (Paul is not saying, you are now up there in His presence physically... but you will be, AT HIS COMING... that is, at the time of our Rapture [IN THE AIR] which is what 2Th2:1's Subject is [not 2Th2:2's])Yes, but I think you have not.
It's not that I cannot fathom it.
It's that this is NOT Paul's Subject here in the Thessalonians epistles.
For example, 2Th2:2 is basically saying, "don't let anyone convince you that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT participle]"...
Then in verse 3, tells WHY this is not the case (WHY it is NOT PRESENT).
And that is because (he says) "ONE THING must happen *FIRST*"...
but "which thing" your viewpoint is disregarding and does not explain.
[it may be helpful for the readers to understand that the Thessalonian epistles is covering the Subject of "an eschatological 'salvation'" ... for example, 1Th1:10 "the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING" (that is, coming ON THE EARTH)... and referred to something like 10x in these 2 epistles, not merely in 1Th4:17, alone!]
It's that this is NOT Paul's Subject here in the Thessalonians epistles.
For example, 2Th2:2 is basically saying, "don't let anyone convince you that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT participle]"...
Then in verse 3, tells WHY this is not the case (WHY it is NOT PRESENT).
And that is because (he says) "ONE THING must happen *FIRST*"...
but "which thing" your viewpoint is disregarding and does not explain.
[it may be helpful for the readers to understand that the Thessalonian epistles is covering the Subject of "an eschatological 'salvation'" ... for example, 1Th1:10 "the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING" (that is, coming ON THE EARTH)... and referred to something like 10x in these 2 epistles, not merely in 1Th4:17, alone!]
What do you consider to have happened to His [supposed] old one?
... and considering that the word "resurrection" means "to stand again [on the earth]"... (and is "bodily")...
(I mean... in view of the fact that it wasn't located there in the tomb anymore... where was it, according to you? And note: ONLY ONE PERSON "SAW [the linen cloths] AND BELIEVED" [at the scene of the empty sepulchre, before even seeing Jesus Himself, as "resurrected"])
... and considering that the word "resurrection" means "to stand again [on the earth]"... (and is "bodily")...
(I mean... in view of the fact that it wasn't located there in the tomb anymore... where was it, according to you? And note: ONLY ONE PERSON "SAW [the linen cloths] AND BELIEVED" [at the scene of the empty sepulchre, before even seeing Jesus Himself, as "resurrected"])
The false doctrine is coming from you
You deny a future coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens is found in the Holy Scripture.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
You deny a future coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens is found in the Holy Scripture.
Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
That does not fit
1 the dead in Christ rise first.
The the living...TO HEAVEN. (You have that entire 2 resurrection scene on earth)
2 the gathering In rev 14 is BEFORE your supposed 2 resurrection belief...which is in opposition to 1 thes 4.
3) the first resurrection before the gt has the business of the wedding and consummation IN HEAVEN...NOT EARTH.
Rev 19 "the bride becomes the wife"....in heaven.
That is 3 of many witnesses that make your belief an impossibility.
1 the dead in Christ rise first.
The the living...TO HEAVEN. (You have that entire 2 resurrection scene on earth)
2 the gathering In rev 14 is BEFORE your supposed 2 resurrection belief...which is in opposition to 1 thes 4.
3) the first resurrection before the gt has the business of the wedding and consummation IN HEAVEN...NOT EARTH.
Rev 19 "the bride becomes the wife"....in heaven.
That is 3 of many witnesses that make your belief an impossibility.
Thanks for the response, we will disagree
There is "One" future time of resurrection for all that have lived, both righteous and wicked Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29
This takes place immediately after the tribulation at the second coming of Jesus Christ Matthew 24:29-31
Daniel below clearly shows this last day resurrection, at the time of tribulation, the books are open, righteous and wicked 1st and 2nd
Last Day Resurrection Of All!
Daniel 12:1-2KJV
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Last Day Resurrection Of All!
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Last Day Resurrection Of All!
Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Last Day Resurrection Of All!
John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
There is "One" future time of resurrection for all that have lived, both righteous and wicked Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29
This takes place immediately after the tribulation at the second coming of Jesus Christ Matthew 24:29-31
Daniel below clearly shows this last day resurrection, at the time of tribulation, the books are open, righteous and wicked 1st and 2nd
Last Day Resurrection Of All!
Daniel 12:1-2KJV
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Last Day Resurrection Of All!
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Last Day Resurrection Of All!
Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Last Day Resurrection Of All!
John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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