Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
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There is no "triune God of the bible". You must be referring to the extra-biblical creedally-formulated doctrine of men.
Back... to what?
Greek would not be required for anti-Trinitarian debate.
Very presumptuous. How utterly Trinitarian of you. Reading your mind to answer your unasked question is possibly the most unrealistic expectation I've encountered. You'd pooh yourself if I tossed out a brace of Greek words and expected you to assemble a dictionary from the alphabet soup.
I see you clarified (in your post to zone below) some semblance of what you were alluding to. I'll respond, but you, sir, are arrogant and disingenuous.
I can only assume you're referring to translation as kurios from the Hebrew, and how it relates to YHVH. As for pros, there a bazillion usages, usually as at, by, with. I'll address it below.
Yeah. Me being mobile and busy off-forum while unable to read your mind must mean I'm just a heretical moron.
I have no issue whatsoever with Theos or kurios in regard to the Word (Jesus). The Word was (en G2258ipf) with (pros G4314pre) God and the Word was (en G2258ipf) God.
The Logos Word has always been with God and has always been God... eternally pre-existent. It is YOU who needs to undersand the rendering of pros in John 1:1; and more importantly to have an understanding of Logos.
Back... to what?
Greek would not be required for anti-Trinitarian debate.
Very presumptuous. How utterly Trinitarian of you. Reading your mind to answer your unasked question is possibly the most unrealistic expectation I've encountered. You'd pooh yourself if I tossed out a brace of Greek words and expected you to assemble a dictionary from the alphabet soup.
I see you clarified (in your post to zone below) some semblance of what you were alluding to. I'll respond, but you, sir, are arrogant and disingenuous.
I can only assume you're referring to translation as kurios from the Hebrew, and how it relates to YHVH. As for pros, there a bazillion usages, usually as at, by, with. I'll address it below.
Yeah. Me being mobile and busy off-forum while unable to read your mind must mean I'm just a heretical moron.
I have no issue whatsoever with Theos or kurios in regard to the Word (Jesus). The Word was (en G2258ipf) with (pros G4314pre) God and the Word was (en G2258ipf) God.
The Logos Word has always been with God and has always been God... eternally pre-existent. It is YOU who needs to undersand the rendering of pros in John 1:1; and more importantly to have an understanding of Logos.
Who were the people who persecuted Christ?
They were religious people. They wouldn't have got drunk, used foul language, had affairs or smoked(if smoking had of been invented then) They attended all the church/synagogue meetings, they tithed down to their last mint dill and cumen, they wore fine clothes and did good deeds(albeit publically) They knew the literal words of the then scriptures inside out.
But they were proud people, they loved the praise of men more than seeking praise from God.
Jesus said they did not even know his Father, though they fooled many
And it was these people who persecuted Christ and were responsible for his death
When Christ was carrying his cross, he said
If such things as this are done to me the living tree, what will they do to you?
Living Bible translation
Who was Jesus talking about?
The above mentioned
You have condemned me for standing on the plain words of Christ that he continuously stated was the requirement for salvation. I can say in full assurity it would have been better for you if you had never corresponded with me in cc.
For there will come a day when there is no gallery and you will stand before Christ and he will ask you why you condemned me for standing on the plain and continuous statements he made as to what belief was required to have eternal life
And that knowledge should bring you to your knees before God, trembling and earnestly asking for forgiveness, but will it?
They were religious people. They wouldn't have got drunk, used foul language, had affairs or smoked(if smoking had of been invented then) They attended all the church/synagogue meetings, they tithed down to their last mint dill and cumen, they wore fine clothes and did good deeds(albeit publically) They knew the literal words of the then scriptures inside out.
But they were proud people, they loved the praise of men more than seeking praise from God.
Jesus said they did not even know his Father, though they fooled many
And it was these people who persecuted Christ and were responsible for his death
When Christ was carrying his cross, he said
If such things as this are done to me the living tree, what will they do to you?
Living Bible translation
Who was Jesus talking about?
The above mentioned
You have condemned me for standing on the plain words of Christ that he continuously stated was the requirement for salvation. I can say in full assurity it would have been better for you if you had never corresponded with me in cc.
For there will come a day when there is no gallery and you will stand before Christ and he will ask you why you condemned me for standing on the plain and continuous statements he made as to what belief was required to have eternal life
And that knowledge should bring you to your knees before God, trembling and earnestly asking for forgiveness, but will it?
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in the beginning (past event) was (past tense 1st/3rd person singualar verb) with(pros..face to face or towrd, in context of the sentence) God. get the idea.
Jesus was face to face with god in the beginning, two persons not one..one person cannot be face to face or toward himself. nor can an idea or fiat be face to face.
Yes I know you can look up a lexicon and give the reference to the words, but that holds nothing to your argument Pneuma, anyone can do that.
explain each of these words... what are the verbs, what is the tense, why use the prepositional 'with' used by John inspired by the Holy Spirit. Now don't just give a rant about some anti creedal thing. and How do the first verses relate to all what is said in John 1:1-18, and of course the rest of the book?
Thanks in advance.
general reply:
i maintain anyone who worships created entities commits idolatry.
i maintain anyone who believes Jesus is a created being should not worship Him: the "REAL G-d" wouldn't like that i reckon, since He said He wouldn't share His glory with ANY OTHER.
He said there is no God besides Him, He Alone is God.
i am not the Judge, i do not have the authority to condemn.
i never said anyone was condemned.
the poster added that part (for dramatic effect)
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Deuteronomy 4:35
To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
Deuteronomy 32:39
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?—
Psalm 68:19
Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior, who daily bears our burdens. Selah
1 Samuel 2:2
“There is none holy like the LORD; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.
Isaiah 17:10
For you have forgotten the God of your salvation and have not remembered the Rock of your refuge; therefore, though you plant pleasant plants and sow the vine-branch of a stranger,
Isaiah 41:4
Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isaiah 44:8
Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isaiah 46:9
remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
~
Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Isaiah:8
8 and it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass on, reaching even to the neck, and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.”
9 Be broken,c you peoples, and be shattered;d
give ear, all you far countries;
strap on your armor and be shattered;
strap on your armor and be shattered.
10 Take counsel together, but it will come to nothing;
speak a word, but it will not stand,
for God is with us.e
13 But the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many shall stumble on it. They shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken.”
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
~
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Deuteronomy 4:35
To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
Deuteronomy 32:39
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?—
Psalm 68:19
Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior, who daily bears our burdens. Selah
1 Samuel 2:2
“There is none holy like the LORD; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.
Isaiah 17:10
For you have forgotten the God of your salvation and have not remembered the Rock of your refuge; therefore, though you plant pleasant plants and sow the vine-branch of a stranger,
Isaiah 41:4
Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isaiah 44:8
Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isaiah 46:9
remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
~
Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Isaiah:8
8 and it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass on, reaching even to the neck, and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.”
9 Be broken,c you peoples, and be shattered;d
give ear, all you far countries;
strap on your armor and be shattered;
strap on your armor and be shattered.
10 Take counsel together, but it will come to nothing;
speak a word, but it will not stand,
for God is with us.e
13 But the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many shall stumble on it. They shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken.”
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
~
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
general reply:
i maintain anyone who worships created entities commits idolatry.
i maintain anyone who believes Jesus is a created being should not worship Him: the "REAL G-d" wouldn't like that i reckon, since He said He wouldn't share His glory with ANY OTHER.
He said there is no God besides Him, He Alone is God.
i am not the Judge, i do not have the authority to condemn.
i never said anyone was condemned.
the poster added that part (for dramatic effect)
i maintain anyone who worships created entities commits idolatry.
i maintain anyone who believes Jesus is a created being should not worship Him: the "REAL G-d" wouldn't like that i reckon, since He said He wouldn't share His glory with ANY OTHER.
He said there is no God besides Him, He Alone is God.
i am not the Judge, i do not have the authority to condemn.
i never said anyone was condemned.
the poster added that part (for dramatic effect)
My only concern in this is for the non Christian or those weak in the faith
I hope they read my words
You cannot be being led of the Holy Spirit. Christ clearly and plainly and continuously staed what a person must believe concerning himself to have eternal life, you do not accept that. He di not discuss his nature, substance or whether the Father did or did not bring him into existence
He said
Believe I am the son of God
And it would be IMPOSSIBLE (as any Christian must know for this is basic Christianity at its simplest) for the Holy Spirit to contradict the plain words of Christ as to the required belief for salvation. It just cannot happen
Therefore where are you erring. The answer is simple
You love and thrive on study. Devouring your mind through the various theologians, scholars, straining to ever learn more theology, straining for what you see as ever more perfect doctrine and greater inderstanding. So masny do this, you only have to come onto Christian websites to see it.
But sadly it is not helping you one dot with God Zone. For it is all your natural thinking and ability, for has been clearly stated it is utterly impossible for you to be being led of the Holy Spirit, and anyone who believes you are must not understand the basic fact the Holy Spirit could never and would never contradict the plain words of Christ as to what belief was required for eternal life
And this is why you shy away from the power of the Holy Spirit working today. You do not want to accept that, because in your heart it has to be what YOU have learnt YOU want the credit, YOU have striven to learn
And as we worship the divinity of the Father seen in the son, your argument anyway is wrong.
So you speak for yourself and I will contnually repeat this, you cannot be speaking for God, for your God is Head Theology
I get your idea. It's just not correct.
There would need to be a reference to seeing (like in 1Cor. 13:12) for it to mean face to face.
Nor do I represent the Word as "an idea or fiat". You've inferred and declared as much about me as you do about God's constitution.
The stupidest part, though, is... even if you were absolutely correct, and I don't even know anarthrous from articular; there's no such construance for making the Holy Spirit into such a "person" from this or any other passage.
I don't use a lexicon, although from your haphazard selections for renderings, I guess you do (or Logos software, or whatever).
No. I will not exegete for you on demand when you're ignorant, arrogant, and condescending. You can't even exegete that Jesus is Deity to shut down LBG or answer his questions; so I couldn't care less how you "evaluate" my language acumen. I've refrained from doing so because one of the few rewards for engaging insufferable Trinitarians is watching them flounder in avoidance and ineptitude while convincing themselves they've answered every challenge... as you have continuously done with LBG. You should be able to answer his questions and shut him down with two words from one phrase from one verse. (And you should be able to read my mind and know which words/phrase/verse. ROFLOL.)
You demand that which you cannot and will not do or give. You're content with your pronouns and prepositions, and I'm content to leave you with them as you assert that I'm feebly leafing through a lexicon.
This is standard Trinitarian tactic: deflect, defer, and demand.
There would need to be a reference to seeing (like in 1Cor. 13:12) for it to mean face to face.
Nor do I represent the Word as "an idea or fiat". You've inferred and declared as much about me as you do about God's constitution.
The stupidest part, though, is... even if you were absolutely correct, and I don't even know anarthrous from articular; there's no such construance for making the Holy Spirit into such a "person" from this or any other passage.
I don't use a lexicon, although from your haphazard selections for renderings, I guess you do (or Logos software, or whatever).
No. I will not exegete for you on demand when you're ignorant, arrogant, and condescending. You can't even exegete that Jesus is Deity to shut down LBG or answer his questions; so I couldn't care less how you "evaluate" my language acumen. I've refrained from doing so because one of the few rewards for engaging insufferable Trinitarians is watching them flounder in avoidance and ineptitude while convincing themselves they've answered every challenge... as you have continuously done with LBG. You should be able to answer his questions and shut him down with two words from one phrase from one verse. (And you should be able to read my mind and know which words/phrase/verse. ROFLOL.)
You demand that which you cannot and will not do or give. You're content with your pronouns and prepositions, and I'm content to leave you with them as you assert that I'm feebly leafing through a lexicon.
This is standard Trinitarian tactic: deflect, defer, and demand.
But about the son he says
Your throne O God will last forever and ever
And righteousness will be a sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has set you above your companions and annointed you with the oil of joy
Heb 1:8&9
Before Abraham was born I Am
John 8:58
There THE ANGEL OF THE LORD APPEARED TO HIM from within the bush
Ex 3:2
He was sent to be their ruler and deliver by God Himself THROUGH THE ANGEL WHO APPEARED TO HIM IN THE BUSH
Acts 7:35
So is the one true God the angel of the Lord?
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him, he will not forgive your rebellion SINCE MY NAME IS IN HIM
Ex 23:21
Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and the seventy elders of Israel went up AND SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL
Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself
But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; THEY SAW GOD AND THE ATE AND DRANK
Ex 24:9-11
No-one has seen God
1 John 4:12
No-one has seen the Father except the one who is from God, only he has seen the Father
John 6:46
They all ate the same spiritual food and drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST
1 Cor 10:4
So Christ was the God of Israel who accompanied them in the desert
For even if there are so called gods, whether in Heaven otr on earth(as indeed there are many gods and many lords)
Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER FROM WHOM all things came and FOR WHOM we live, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THROUGH WEHOM all things came and THROUGH WHOM we live
1 Clor 8:5&6
The Father is greater than I John 14:28
The Father is greater than all John 10:29
That they may know you (the FatheR) THE ONLY TRUE GOD asnd Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3
So the name of the Father is in the son, hmm that may not make it so simple to read and understand much scripture concerning who is actually speaking
The Father has always spoken through the son, hmm that may make it even harder to understand much scritpure relating to who is actually saying the words. Is the Father speaking? Isd the Father speaking through the son? Or is the son himself speaking? Now that would give you something to work on wouldn't it Zone!
How many of the Jews who had all of the OT scriptures were expecting God Himself to come as their Messiah?
Pau knew OT scripture very well indeed
Then the end will come when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power
For he must REIGN UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet, the last enemy to be destroyed is death
For he has put everything under his feet
Now when it says that everything has been put under him IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF who put everything under Christ
When he has done this, then the son himself will be made SUBJECT to him who put everything under him spo that God may be all in all
1 Cor 15:24-28
I guess Paul and John are not saved either, oh well maybe they did not understand as well as you the truth Zone
Does Christ have to be refered to as God Himself to have diety?
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Amen
The glory is allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll God's Phil
Man can boast of nothing in himself, only of the mercy, love and grace of God who sent His son to die for us
The natural human flesh, mind and logic can only be a barrier to God truly working in somenones life
It is what God can do in the individual through faith in his son and the Holy Spirits power
Faith begins where logic ends
The glory is allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll God's Phil
Man can boast of nothing in himself, only of the mercy, love and grace of God who sent His son to die for us
The natural human flesh, mind and logic can only be a barrier to God truly working in somenones life
It is what God can do in the individual through faith in his son and the Holy Spirits power
Faith begins where logic ends
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LBG,
I wonder who you would risk offending, if from your own lips you confessed that Jesus Christ, the risen Lord was Almighty God, the one and only true God, that was manifest in the flesh, who took on a human form by becoming a man, who died, was buried and rose again on the third day?
Would you be offending or blaspheming the Father who sent His only begotten Son? Would you be offending Christians who have been saved by grace, who have been forgiven, cleansed, raised with Him and given eternal life and who love the Lord Jesus Christ? Would you be offending or bringing dishonor upon the Godhead, or be bringing shame upon the Lord Jesus Christ or violating the integrity of God's word?
Would you be communicating a lie that could deceive others and introduce leaven in their heart? Would you be injecting into the gospel of Christ a wrong concept that would hinder the gospel and keep sinners from salvation? Just what kind of offence would you bring upon yourself is you confessed with your mouth that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh and as God in the flesh paid for our sins and was raised for our justification?
Answer these questions to yourself before God, who you claim to worship.
I wonder who you would risk offending, if from your own lips you confessed that Jesus Christ, the risen Lord was Almighty God, the one and only true God, that was manifest in the flesh, who took on a human form by becoming a man, who died, was buried and rose again on the third day?
Would you be offending or blaspheming the Father who sent His only begotten Son? Would you be offending Christians who have been saved by grace, who have been forgiven, cleansed, raised with Him and given eternal life and who love the Lord Jesus Christ? Would you be offending or bringing dishonor upon the Godhead, or be bringing shame upon the Lord Jesus Christ or violating the integrity of God's word?
Would you be communicating a lie that could deceive others and introduce leaven in their heart? Would you be injecting into the gospel of Christ a wrong concept that would hinder the gospel and keep sinners from salvation? Just what kind of offence would you bring upon yourself is you confessed with your mouth that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh and as God in the flesh paid for our sins and was raised for our justification?
Answer these questions to yourself before God, who you claim to worship.
Well I make this six times you have now put this post up
You must think highly of it to keep reproducing it
It is just a pity that you can never answer any questions put to you on this subject isn't it
And yet you believe you have been raised up as a teacher/preacher of the word
Oh the folly of man and his pride
You must think highly of it to keep reproducing it
It is just a pity that you can never answer any questions put to you on this subject isn't it
And yet you believe you have been raised up as a teacher/preacher of the word
Oh the folly of man and his pride
I learned that the human mind needs around (35) exposures to be able to recite, verbatim, the pledge of allegiance of our flag with comprehension. It never hurts or hinders to reiterate certain points knowing that at some point it may be comprehended by the faculty of the human mind. I am not talking about about spiritual understanding but I am talking about the comprehension level and objectivity that makes up our ability to think with the faculty of the human mind we have been given. The Spirit takes that faculty and gives it understanding and revelation based on the objectivity of the inspired written word. That is not circular reasoning as some would refer to it but direct objective wisdom and understanding that produces faith in the mind and heart that can be received through humility or rejected through pride.
I would propose that when the heart has received the seed of God's word and Satan is able to come immediately and snatch it away, so that they would not be saved, is because the soil of the heart had no humility and was therefore unable to receive that seed with understanding. The knowledge of the word remained in the mind and could be used for religious convictions and purposes of good works that would support morality but not spirituality and never have the power or ability to give the hearer spiritual understanding or the power of a transformed and regenerated heart that would need the mercy and grace of God for every weakness, every sin and every failure that might befall the saved sinner through out his life.
I would propose that when the heart has received the seed of God's word and Satan is able to come immediately and snatch it away, so that they would not be saved, is because the soil of the heart had no humility and was therefore unable to receive that seed with understanding. The knowledge of the word remained in the mind and could be used for religious convictions and purposes of good works that would support morality but not spirituality and never have the power or ability to give the hearer spiritual understanding or the power of a transformed and regenerated heart that would need the mercy and grace of God for every weakness, every sin and every failure that might befall the saved sinner through out his life.
Hi Pneuma,
I don't have logos software and as before you havent answered the question, but, instead went into a rant without actually saying anything. Well, apart from the usual Im not a trinitarian!
Have a blessed day, in the name of the Father, The son and Holy Spirit.
I don't have logos software
and as before you havent answered the question, but, instead went into a rant without actually saying anything. Well, apart from the usual Im not a trinitarian!Have a blessed day, in the name of the Father, The son and Holy Spirit.
I will have a blessed day in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. That one name for F-S-HS is Jesus. I will have a blessed day in the name of Jesus, though you didn't mention the name.
You be blessed in Jesus' name.