Questions about JW’s

notuptome · Jun 20, 2020

NWL said:

I forgot to address the other two points you made, you said, "The (false) Jesus that the JWs proclaim is not the only true God (by their admission), and therefore has neither power to forgive sin nor resurrect from the grave". Jesus didn't need to be God to forgive sins or to resurrect people from the dead, the apostles were all empowered to be able to forgive sins and also raise people from the dead, the ability to do so is a God-given ability, therefore, if the apostles as men were able to be empowered to perform such feats then there is no reason that Jesus needed to be God to perform the same miracles, since the Father, who is the 'one God' would have simply empowered Jesus to do so, the same way Jesus empowered the apostles to do so.

"..After saying this he [Jesus] blew on them [the apostles] and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained..” (John 20:22, 23)

"..Peter then put everyone outside, and kneeling down, he prayed. Then turning toward the body, he said: “Tabʹi·tha, rise!” She opened her eyes, and as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up.." (Acts 9:40)

Below is my previous post to you in regards to the same post, in case it got lost in the mess I created.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

JW's and I do believe Jesus is God, but in a certain sense, scripture makes it clear that he is (John 20:28, Is 9:6, Hebrews 1:8), we simply do not accept him as the 'one God'. As I've already stated on this thread, we only see the Father as the 'one God', Paul himself does not include Jesus in the category of the 'one God', this fact cannot be ignored:

"..there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.." (1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

Notice what Paul states, he only places the Father in the category of the 'one God' and specifically leaves Jesus out, calling him the 'one Lord' and NOT the 'one God. Only the Father is ever referenced as being the 'one God', whereas there have been many persons/beings referred to as GOD like Jesus was, but the term 'God' understood to the original languages have a lesser, secondary meaning of God as when applied God the Father. For example, Moses was called God/Elohim (Exo 7:1), as are angels (Ps 8:5, Heb 2:7), as are men by Jesus (John 10:34), as well as Satan being called 'ho theos' (THE GOD - 2 Cor 4:4). So again, Jesus is God, the same way many others have been and are called GODS, he simply isn't the 'one God' since Paul makes it clear that only the Father is the 'one God'.

Put this to rest once and for all. There is only One God. Either Jesus is Jehovah God incarnate or Jesus is a fraud. Jesus is not God in a sense Jesus is God in every sense.

Jehovah God is omnipresent. Jehovah God inhabits all of eternity, inhabits eternity fully and completely. Jehovah God is God on the cross and God on the throne at the same time and without interruption.

Jesus rose from the tomb bodily and showed Himself the the disciples in His body bearing the nail pierced hands and the wound in His side that He received on the cross.

If you do not believe in the true Christ you are lost. The Christ of your imagination is not able to save.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

NOV25 · Jun 20, 2020

NWL said:

I feel sad that me asking you the simplest of things results in you being rude to me for now reason. I have no issue with you claiming 'Christian' means what you say it means, just don't tell me I'm wrong with my understanding of the term, it becomes a different matter when you keep asserting the same thing, I'm not a Christian, and cannot actually explain why I'm not a Christian despite one of the best scholars, who actually knows Greek unlike you, states the Greek word 'Christian' means 'someone who follows Christ'.

The fact you are unable and unwilling to evidence what you claim and can only mock me when I ask you a question make your statement that you're a 'Christian' ever so ironic. One cannot pick a bible up that's been translated into English by scholars, and yet refuse to accept scholars understanding of the words they themselves have translated, it's self-defeating.

Truth can come with a sting, depending on what side of it you stand. I assure you, it is not my intention to wound you out of spite, I’ve been in your shoes.

NWL · Jun 20, 2020

NOV25 said:

You are mistaken, I'm not offended by what you said, I was saddened by the fact that you are so lost you can only result to mock and make backhanded comments, even now you pretend that you are sincere but you speak with a passive-aggressive undertone by comments such as 'truth can come with a sting'. You can keep making such statement, it really doesn't matter to me, but you need to ask yourself what truth have you actually revealed, what sting is there? You've stated nothing its the very reason I replied to your previous post, I asked you to explain what you asserted, you still have not done so. All you can do is pretend you've somehow trumped and revealed something to me when you haven't revealed anything apart from giving your opinion on what the term 'Christian' means, and make backhanded comments.

You can do one of a few things, one, stop engaging with me if you're not going to answer what I asked, two, engage with me and answer what I respectfully asked, or three, reply to this post with another backhanded comment where you imply that you've somehow 'revealed the truth' despite not showing anything at all, I'll leave it up to you my friend.

NWL · Jun 20, 2020

notuptome said:

Answer these simple questions truthfully and you'll have put to rest what needs to be put to rest:

Is Satan called "the god of this world" according to 2 Cor 4:4?
Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?
Are angels called Elohim/gods according to Psalms 8:5 compared to Hebrews 2:7?
Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?
Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?

(2 Corinthians 4:4) "..among whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.."

(Exodus 7:1) "..And the Lord [YHWH] said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.."

(Psalms 8:5) "..You have made them a little lower than the angels [Elohim] and crowned them with glory and honor.."
(Hebrews 2:7) "..You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands.."

(John 10:34) "..Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?."

(1 Corinthians 8:5) "..For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”.."

NWL · Jun 20, 2020

Reformyourself said:

Thank you my friend, I pray that he reveals the truth to you and all too.

notuptome · Jun 20, 2020

NWL said:

Satan fell because he wanted to be like the Most High God.

There is no God beside Jehovah God. Jesus Christ is Jehovah God incarnate.

Distractions are distractions and do not reveal the truth. If Jesus Christ is not Jehovah God incarnate He could not be the atonement for mankind's sin.

Jesus Jehovah God incarnate was made by virtue of His flesh a little lower than the angels.

Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

NWL · Jun 20, 2020

notuptome said:

Your beliefs must be in harmony with scripture, you yourself cannot explain why scriptures call others gods, whilst other scripture states there is only 'one God', and thus result in ignoring scripture I'm showing you and answering my simple question. I'm not asking for much, all I'm doing is asking you to confirm what the scripture plainly states, the fact you refuse to answer questions that only require you to confirm what the bible itself states should be setting off red flags that your doctrine isn't 100% correct. As you didn't answer any of my questions I'll simply post them again.

Is Satan called "the god of this world" according to 2 Cor 4:4?
Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?
Are angels called Elohim/gods according to Psalms 8:5 compared to Hebrews 2:7?
Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?
Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?

garee · Jun 20, 2020

NWL said:

As sons of God we are gods in that way .

The example with Moses is using Moses to signify God not seen who has no DNA. and Arron to represent the Son of man, Jesus the temporal who did have corrupted flesh and blood . He informs us because God is not a man we known the Son of man no more forever more after the corruptible.

As sons of God we are not what we will be . We will not be created after the the dead rudiments of this world. Corruption does does put on incorruption . Wolves in sheep's clothing.

fredoheaven · Jun 20, 2020

NWL said:

The meaning of the word 'God' in English has somewhat of a different meaning as the term 'God' in ancient Hebrew and Greek. In the original languages the term 'God' had a secondary meaning that could be applied to other beings who were, powerful, mighty, divinely appointed or falsely worshipped, how can I say this, you might think, I say so as that's exactly what the bibles expresses, as I will show.

"..And the Lord [YHWH] said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.." (Exo 7:1 DRB)
"..You have made them a little lower than the angels [Elohim/gods] and crowned them with glory and honor.." (Psalms 8:5 NIV. Compare Hebrews 2:7)
"..God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges.." (Psalm 82:1)
"..Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”..’ (John 10:34)
"..among whom [satan] the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.." (2 Corinthians 4:4)

Notice all the above verse call other beings GOD, before you think to yourself, "yes but most of these have the lowercase g", I should highlight that neither ancient Hebrew of Greek used uncapitalized letter but wrote in capital letters all the time, so there was simply no distinction between god and God as we have in English translations, this is simply something translators have adopted for the ease of readers.

Getting back to the point, the bible is clear that other beings who are not the 'one God' are referred to as GODS, this is irrefutable and undeniable, in 1 Cor 8:5,6 Paul even states there are 'many gods' but to him and his listeners there is only 'one God the Father', "For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father", The Father being God is different to these other persons being Gods because the term had a secondary lesser meaning as I mentioned earlier according to the original languages, hence why there is only 'one God', as the term when applied to God carries the full meaning of the term.

Nothing I have said above are my own words or JW's words, these are the words of the bible since all I've done is shown scripture from the bible and stated basic facts. As I've said previously, Jesus is God as many other beings are and have been, he simply isn't the 'one God', since, as Paul states, only the Father is the 'one God'.

The scribal error here "god/s" not in reference to God. Your previous post equate Jesus with the Father which is 'God" (G in upper case letter not 'g' lower case letter).

Your Greek instance of using capital letters simply refers to CODEX, or CODICES (plural) and said to be MAJUSCULE but you have to take note that there are also Greek manuscripts written in an UNCAPITALIZED Letters called MINISCULE and the bulk of the Greek extant are of these group.

Simply, I put your justification is not precise, hence, you have misunderstood the text in 1 Cor.

biker · Jun 20, 2020

NWL said:

John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The portion I want to use specifically is:
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

^
This clearly is saying that the FATHER is LIVING inside of Jesus doing the talking and the miracles.

With your belief system, how is it you haven't relayed

1) The Father would only live inside someone equal to Himself?
or
2) Christ is the Father since He lives inside Jesus doing the works and the talking we read about?
or
3) Christ (the WORD) and the Father represent different parts of God, but God is only One Person and Christ is a function of how God chose to work with His Creation?

I can see you're Oneness in Doctrine. But you're not Oneness in the sense that the Father-Son-Holy Spirit are the functions of how the One True God works like the Church Fathers explain:

God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.

but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.

notuptome · Jun 20, 2020

NWL said:

The are many gods but only one God. Many fakes but only one genuine article. Many call themselves Christian but they are not genuine. You can sit in the garage and call yourself a car but that does not mean you are the genuine article.

If Jesu Christ is not Jehovah God incarnate then Jesus Christ would have been a fraud. That Jesus Christ rose from the dead bodily is proof that He was the genuine article.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

creative111 · Jun 21, 2020

notuptome said:

You do realise that you didn't actually answer his questions, which I'm sure NWL himself will point out to you.

This is one thing that's actually quite frustrating when talking most Trinitarians, you're so quick to dismiss supporting evidence for unitarian beliefs, for example, when the scriptures themselves which support the notion of other "gods", which NWL explained sufficiently from the scriptures. But then when you're then asked to explain such verses in harmony with Trinitarian teachings as NWL did you, you purposely sidestep the question and give a strawman answer.

If Trinitarianism was 100% accurate then you should have no problem with harmonizing the scriptures along with your particular belief system. The fact that you don't directly answer the question only weakens your stance and demonstrates that you are not in fact able to properly match your belief to what the scriptures teach AS A WHOLE and not mere snippets of biblical teaching as you express.

Absolutely · Jun 21, 2020

NOV25 said:

Bingo

I went round and round with one of them.

I looked to heaven and asked what was blinding him.
Heavens answer was "what we have here is men studying the bible w/o the Holy Spirit."

Absolutely · Jun 21, 2020

NWL said:

I forgot to address the other two points you made, you said, "The (false) Jesus that the JWs proclaim is not the only true God (by their admission), and therefore has neither power to forgive sin nor resurrect from the grave". Jesus didn't need to be God to forgive sins or to resurrect people from the dead, the apostles were all empowered to be able to forgive sins and also raise people from the dead, the ability to do so is a God-given ability, therefore, if the apostles as men were able to be empowered to perform such feats then there is no reason that Jesus needed to be God to perform the same miracles, since the Father, who is the 'one God' would have simply empowered Jesus to do so, the same way Jesus empowered the apostles to do so.

"..After saying this he [Jesus] blew on them [the apostles] and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained..” (John 20:22, 23)

"..Peter then put everyone outside, and kneeling down, he prayed. Then turning toward the body, he said: “Tabʹi·tha, rise!” She opened her eyes, and as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up.." (Acts 9:40)

Below is my previous post to you in regards to the same post, in case it got lost in the mess I created.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

JW's and I do believe Jesus is God, but in a certain sense, scripture makes it clear that he is (John 20:28, Is 9:6, Hebrews 1:8), we simply do not accept him as the 'one God'. As I've already stated on this thread, we only see the Father as the 'one God', Paul himself does not include Jesus in the category of the 'one God', this fact cannot be ignored:

"..there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.." (1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

Notice what Paul states, he only places the Father in the category of the 'one God' and specifically leaves Jesus out, calling him the 'one Lord' and NOT the 'one God. Only the Father is ever referenced as being the 'one God', whereas there have been many persons/beings referred to as GOD like Jesus was, but the term 'God' understood to the original languages have a lesser, secondary meaning of God as when applied God the Father. For example, Moses was called God/Elohim (Exo 7:1), as are angels (Ps 8:5, Heb 2:7), as are men by Jesus (John 10:34), as well as Satan being called 'ho theos' (THE GOD - 2 Cor 4:4). So again, Jesus is God, the same way many others have been and are called GODS, he simply isn't the 'one God' since Paul makes it clear that only the Father is the 'one God'.

Jesus received worship.
Jesus was sinless
Jesus resurrected himself.
Jesus is the creator
The Father,in hebrews ,calls the son God.
Jesus is called "the everlasting Father" in Isaiah.
In colossians Jesus is "the fullness of the Godhead "

To get it wrong,as you watchtowers insist on doing,is to endlessly reframe the bible.

But to tamper with the testimony of Jesus is to bring damnation to your being.

You stumble on the rock. The Lord Jesus.
You mentally reframe the word and use a changed bible.

You are a cult. A cult riddled with deception.

Absolutely · Jun 21, 2020

NWL said:

You are mistaken, I'm not offended by what you said, I was saddened by the fact that you are so lost you can only result to mock and make backhanded comments, even now you pretend that you are sincere but you speak with a passive-aggressive undertone by comments such as 'truth can come with a sting'. You can keep making such statement, it really doesn't matter to me, but you need to ask yourself what truth have you actually revealed, what sting is there? You've stated nothing its the very reason I replied to your previous post, I asked you to explain what you asserted, you still have not done so. All you can do is pretend you've somehow trumped and revealed something to me when you haven't revealed anything apart from giving your opinion on what the term 'Christian' means, and make backhanded comments.

You can do one of a few things, one, stop engaging with me if you're not going to answer what I asked, two, engage with me and answer what I respectfully asked, or three, reply to this post with another backhanded comment where you imply that you've somehow 'revealed the truth' despite not showing anything at all, I'll leave it up to you my friend.

POT/KETTLE ....BIG TIME.

Absolutely · Jun 21, 2020

creative111 said:

You do realise that you didn't actually answer his questions, which I'm sure NWL himself will point out to you.

This is one thing that's actually quite frustrating when talking most Trinitarians, you're so quick to dismiss supporting evidence for unitarian beliefs, for example, when the scriptures themselves which support the notion of other "gods", which NWL explained sufficiently from the scriptures. But then when you're then asked to explain such verses in harmony with Trinitarian teachings as NWL did you, you purposely sidestep the question and give a strawman answer.

If Trinitarianism was 100% accurate then you should have no problem with harmonizing the scriptures along with your particular belief system. The fact that you don't directly answer the question only weakens your stance and demonstrates that you are not in fact able to properly match your belief to what the scriptures teach AS A WHOLE and not mere snippets of biblical teaching as you express.

Another watchtower ambassador to shore up new world false mess.

Absolutely · Jun 21, 2020

NWL said:

Says the man with a changed bible

garee · Jun 21, 2020

creative111 said:

JW's like some others who have some kind of hope that the bodies of flesh and blood we live in will live forever. They miss the spiritual understanding hid in parable by literalizing the word of God. This is so that men might venerate their own flesh as those who lord it over the faith of the pew sitters. It can be seen in the blood issue that they have changed and say it optional today .

The focus is on two becoming one for a demonstration of a unseen work that has been finished, as the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world.

God is not a man.

Webers.Home · Jun 21, 2020

.
FAQ: Why does the Watchtower Society translate the Word in John 1:1 as a
god in lower case instead of God in upper case?

A: The Watchtower Society's translation is based upon an imaginary
grammatical technicality.

The common Greek word for "god" is theós (theh'-os). When it's modified by
the little Greek definite article "ho" the Society translates theós in upper
case, viz: in the Society's theological thinking; ho theós pertains to the one
true God, while theós by itself is somewhat flexible, for example John 1:18
and John 20:17 where the Society translates theós in upper case though it
be not modified by ho.

However, according to Dr. Archibald T. Robertson's "Grammar Of The Greek
New Testament", page 767: in regards to nouns in the predicate; the article
is not essential to speech. In other words: when theόs is in the predicate, ho
can be either used, or not used, without making any real difference.

So then; a translator's decision whether to capitalize either of the two theόs
in John 1:1 or not to capitalize them, is entirely arbitrary rather than
dictated by a strict rule of Greek grammar. Of course the Society prefers
that the Word be a lower case god because it's agreeable with JW theology.
_

bluto · Jun 21, 2020

NWL said:

I'm aware Thayer was a unitarian, I don't get how changed anything I said?

Good question, I have to explain quite a bit in order to properly answer your question.

Hi NWL! You said God being all was in comparison to false gods etc. What does that have to do with anything? How does that change the fact that God created all alone and by Himself? Moreover, what difference does it make even if angels were with Him, He still created all alone including the angels.

What does that mean that Jesus was a "passive" creator according to John 1:3? Your the ones that inserted in John 1:1 that Jesus was "a god." Yet Isaiah 45:5 says, "I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides ME THERE IS NO GOD." Why would that not include Jesus who you say is "a god?" Is He a true god or a false god?

You also brought up the two prepositions "by" and "through." That word "by" denotes "Origin." The word "through" denotes the manner in which something is achieved. And yes, I am well aware that the words can be used interchangeable. So at John 1:3, (and this is where context is extremely important), John says "All things came into being by Him, (that means all things without exception), and apart from Him, (that means without Him) NOTHING came into being that has come into being."

Here again, "nothing" means "nothing." I am not "isolating" John 1:3, it's backed up by Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14 along with other verses. Colossians 1:16 is also "all inclusive." "For by Him ALL things were created etc. Again, no exceptions. And to make this asinine statement, "as can be seen, according to v18 Jesus has the first place in "all things", so is Jesus the first murder, the first homosexual, the first lier?" Your referring to Colossians 1:18 is Biblical ignorance at the highest level.

At John 11:1-4 Jesus rasied Lazarus from the dead four days after his entombment. So if we use your argument Jesus cannot be the first-born from the dead. He cannot be the first murderer etc. So what does Colossians 1:18 mean? It means that Jesus Christ was the first-born from the dead in a permanent way.

He is the "beginning" (arche) or "source" or "origin." He is the "firstborn" (prototokos), the first to rise from the realm of the dead in a permanent fashion (Revelation 1:5). This means that He opened the way for other to follow and this is why Jesus Christ deserves recognition as the Preeminent One. His resurrection defeated death.

Finally, you said the insertion of the word "other" makes it easy for the reader to understand things. Really! How does saying Jesus created all "other" things make it easy reading? Your adding words to the word of God and instead of making it "easy" your actually making things more complicated in order to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. That my friend is your organizations pland and purpose. As Jesus said, "I will build My church, and the gates of hell shal not prevail." Matther 16:17-19. PS: If your not here to defend the NWT or for any other reason, why are you here?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

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